Has Allen had scrambling coached out of him too much?

[transplantbillsfan]

First of all,  I'll just say that this is a bit of a Goldilocks discussion.  I don't want Allen running as much as Lamar Jackson does.  I especially don't want Allen running as many designed running plays as Lamar Jackson does.  And I also want Allen to continue to grow as a passing QB... but every single year Allen has been in the league I've gone back and looked at his success as a runner in designed running plays vs. passing plays and he's ALWAYS significantly better as a scrambling QB.

 

Yes, there are nuances to that last statement... like how he shouldn't be scrambling if he can get the ball to a WR down the field.  But we all saw what happened vs. Pittsburgh with constant pressure and Allen getting sacked 3 times and hit a bunch more... yet he only scrambled once for 11 yards and a first down.

 

Against the Phins he got pressured less, so passing was probably the better option... except something was up with him in terms of accuracy.  Maybe more scrambling and getting some positive plays in the passing game with his legs would have gotten his feet under him... so to speak.

 

So far this year Allen has rushed the ball 14 times for 79 yards and 9 first downs.  That's 5.6 YPR... pretty good, right?

 

The thing is, he's only scrambled 3 times.  On those 3 scrambles, he's gained 26 yards and 3 1st downs... with a called back TD that we scored on the next play.

 

That means this year on scrambles this year he's averaging 8.6 YPR and a 1st down on 100% of his plays vs. 4.8 YPR and a 1st down on 54.5% of his plays on designed runs.

 

And while that's a small sample size and especially the 1st down numbers are really skewed because of that, the YPR and higher average for 1st downs on scrambles lines up really well with his first few years.  In fact, his first 2 years in the league he was averaging 8 YPR on scrambles and less than 5 YPR on designed runs... he also got significantly more 1st downs and TDs.

 

Last year he scrambled a lot less... but he was still more efficient on those plays than designed runs.  But he scrambled a LOT less.  And he was so great in the passing game (combination of things here, obviously) that we just didn't notice or care.

 

If we're comparing Allen to a QB we want him to evolve into, I don't think it's Joe Montana or Tom Brady... it's probably Steve Young. Great passer and pass first QB, but also a great runner when he needed to be.  And my memory may be failing me, but I don't think SF called many designed QB runs in the 90s for him.  Even in his last year as a starter in the NFL, he rushed for over 450 yards and 6 TDs. 

 

Heck, I don't think Atlanta called all that many designed QB runs for Mike Vick in the early 2000s... he was just coached to run in certain scenarios on passing plays or if he saw certain coverages.

 

I don't want Allen to be a QB who needs to run for 800-1,000 yards and 10+ TDs every year... but his ability to evade pressure is one of his most Elite gifts... and sometimes he just shouldn't throw the ball.  

 

Those are the times I want him running.

 

As counter as this may sound, I really wish Daboll  would take the designed runs out of our playbook.  On top of being less effective, those are the runs he seems to get hit on the most.  Or maybe just sprinkle an RPO in every once in a great while.  But instead, tell Josh he shouldn't be afraid to scramble at the right times as long as he protects himself.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Maybe it should have been.

 

We are talking about a very small sample size, versus Pitt and then a blowout to the Dolphins...hard to get a coherent "theme" from those two disparate games.  One thing he has apparently learned to do is through the ball away, yes its hurt his completion percentage (oh God no, under 60% AGAIN)  but it is a more mature, team productive policy,

 

I dont like the high number of designed QB runs unless they are very yardage/time sensitive.  I also wish we do more QB sneaks.  The number on QB sneak injuries' is stunningly low and this is a big boy with a heart to get the first (thanksgiving versus Dallas).

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by RoyBatty is alive

[Malazan]

oh, ffs, Please Allen be lights out because I can't take the endless pontificating of stupid sh*t about it

[MJS]

Let Allen play his game. I'm sure Daboll trusts him.

[Apocalypse Nuts]

Yes and no

Edited September 24, 2021 by Apocalypse Nuts

[ProcessTruster]

56 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

oh, ffs, Please Allen be lights out because I can't take the endless pontificating of stupid sh*t about it

agree

[Patrick Duffy]

No, it's part of his game and who he is. Now I'm sure they would like to see less scrambling at times if possible. But I would think they let him do his thing for the most part.

[Maynard]

I do think the top brass needs to tell him to go out and play your game. I do believe he’s putting too much pressure on himself. Go and have some fun without playing too much hero ball.  

[John from Riverside]

Daniel Jones killed WFT with it last week......so I hope not

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

First of all,  I'll just say that this is a bit of a Goldilocks discussion.  I don't want Allen running as much as Lamar Jackson does.  I especially don't want Allen running as many designed running plays as Lamar Jackson does.  And I also want Allen to continue to grow as a passing QB... but every single year Allen has been in the league I've gone back and looked at his success as a runner in designed running plays vs. passing plays and he's ALWAYS significantly better as a scrambling QB.

 

Yes, there are nuances to that last statement... like how he shouldn't be scrambling if he can get the ball to a WR down the field.  But we all saw what happened vs. Pittsburgh with constant pressure and Allen getting sacked 3 times and hit a bunch more... yet he only scrambled once for 11 yards and a first down.

 

Against the Phins he got pressured less, so passing was probably the better option... except something was up with him in terms of accuracy.  Maybe more scrambling and getting some positive plays in the passing game with his legs would have gotten his feet under him... so to speak.

 

So far this year Allen has rushed the ball 14 times for 79 yards and 9 first downs.  That's 5.6 YPR... pretty good, right?

 

The thing is, he's only scrambled 3 times.  On those 3 scrambles, he's gained 26 yards and 3 1st downs... with a called back TD that we scored on the next play.

 

That means this year on scrambles this year he's averaging 8.6 YPR and a 1st down on 100% of his plays vs. 4.8 YPR and a 1st down on 54.5% of his plays on designed runs.

 

And while that's a small sample size and especially the 1st down numbers are really skewed because of that, the YPR and higher average for 1st downs on scrambles lines up really well with his first few years.  In fact, his first 2 years in the league he was averaging 8 YPR on scrambles and less than 5 YPR on designed runs... he also got significantly more 1st downs and TDs.

 

Last year he scrambled a lot less... but he was still more efficient on those plays than designed runs.  But he scrambled a LOT less.  And he was so great in the passing game (combination of things here, obviously) that we just didn't notice or care.

 

If we're comparing Allen to a QB we want him to evolve into, I don't think it's Joe Montana or Tom Brady... it's probably Steve Young. Great passer and pass first QB, but also a great runner when he needed to be.  And my memory may be failing me, but I don't think SF called many designed QB runs in the 90s for him.  Even in his last year as a starter in the NFL, he rushed for over 450 yards and 6 TDs. 

 

Heck, I don't think Atlanta called all that many designed QB runs for Mike Vick in the early 2000s... he was just coached to run in certain scenarios on passing plays or if he saw certain coverages.

 

I don't want Allen to be a QB who needs to run for 800-1,000 yards and 10+ TDs every year... but his ability to evade pressure is one of his most Elite gifts... and sometimes he just shouldn't throw the ball.  

 

Those are the times I want him running.

 

As counter as this may sound, I really wish Daboll  would take the designed runs out of our playbook.  On top of being less effective, those are the runs he seems to get hit on the most.  Or maybe just sprinkle an RPO in every once in a great while.  But instead, tell Josh he shouldn't be afraid to scramble at the right times as long as he protects himself.

Himself and the ball!

 

I agree with your thoughts on this, imo, anything concerning running the ball has been somewhat problematic for Dabol, that and our franchise QB is in my estimate not a smooth handoff to the RB guy, he is somewhat clumsy and telegraphs the motion when doing so, work needs to be done on this,  yeah I’m gonna get slammed on the last bit in this post, oh well, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[LeGOATski]

I think he's perfect at knowing when to scramble, so......no?

[billybrew1]

To me, it's kinda amazing how he has taken several steps back after being at the very tip-top of all-around great QB play.

He is now off everywhere just about. Is his neck really hurt and making him worry thereby taking him off his game?

I don't know but I sure hope he starts to resemble 2020 Josh once again.

I actually thought and really still Billieve he will not only match last season but he will surpass it by playing nearly flawless ball that will be nearly impossible to stop as long as his OL and his weapons stay healthy.

I still Billieve this is his destiny this year. I don't think KC can beat us if Josh realizes his best.

If not by week five, then the rematch in January.

IMHO, he was very close to Mahomes before his receivers got all beat up. The numbers back this up.

I see no reason why he can't recapture that form and then surpass it. He is young enough.

I think we have the weapons to win it all this year.

Josh, McD, Leslie And Daboll Just have to put it all together, together.

Diggs, Dion, Daryl, Feliciano, Jerry, AJ, Gregory, Tre, Tremaine, and the list just goes on and on and on - won't let them down.

The whole team is very good.

C'mon Josh, just do it and take your place as one of the All-time greats and win it all; everything.

 

Go Bills!

[LABILLBACKER]

In the Steeler game Dabol called 7 designed qb draws. I don't think Josh has ever been asked that before. I would never cut his legs out from under him by asking him to scramble less. That seems to be where he can flourish and exploit the defense. But these incessant draws are stupid and too risky. Really the only time I want to ever see JA run are on scrambles, 1 yard qb sneaks or inside the 5.  Lose the qb draws at midfield. 

[Buffalo Boy]

Does this dress make my butt look fat🧐

[Patrick Duffy]

[marky]

Scrambling is an amateur's game. You make 200 million dollars. Learn not to overthrow Sanders. Where's Jordan Palmer?

Edited September 25, 2021 by beavis

[Mikie2times]

I think it's been an element to his hesitancy. Not all of it, but a part of it. I also don't think defenses are rushing him as uncontrolled as they have in the past. 

[Buffalo716]

I absolutely agree 

 

Huge difference between designed runs and scrambling outside the pocket to pass or run 

 

Josh has always been extremely effective at getting outside the pocket and being a dual threat.. it's one of the best facets of his game

 

He needs to continue to utilize it..when he gets outside The tackle box, he's super accurate and a big time playmaker

Edited September 25, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Thurman#1]

Nope. Not buying this at all.

[transplantbillsfan]

21 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Nope. Not buying this at all.

 

Shockingly thoughtless and unnecessary post from you.

 

And I mean that sincerely based on your posting history.

 

It's impossible to argue that Allen isn't significantly more effective as a scrambler than a designed runner.

 

Like... MUCH more effective.

 

Now... before this turns into something like you conflating the words "suggest" and "recommend," I would never recommend that Allen scramble as much as Michael Vick, but if I were in a conversation with Brian Dabolk, I would suggest that he make sure Allen understands that scrambling for him is more than a good option when plays break down 

Edited September 25, 2021 by transplantbillsfan

[BeastMaster]

I agree with this.

 

Allen needs to be himself instead of trying to force things at the expense of making plays to help the team win.

 

I'm sure he's being coached to stay in the pocket more and to not freelance as much.

 

He will naturally progress into a more cerebral player, but it won't work if it's being coached into him.

[LEBills]

So about the OP. 
 

Josh running is still part of the game plan and that is why he is averaging more runs per game now (7 per game) than he did last year.

 

However, I remember last year Josh saying during a press conference that his body hurts more than it probably should. So I don’t think he wants to take it out of his game but he wants to be smarter with it. Rather than running over Van Noy, he is running out of bounds, or sliding at the goal line.

But I think he is especially trying to sit behind the LOS and throw it more rather than scramble. The pass blocking has made it where their are instances he probably should have scrambled more but I think he is trying to figure out a balance.

 

He is our franchise QB. Scrambling but being smart about the shots his body takes is his next step in his evolution. It may lead us to question what is going on early this season but I think it will pay off in the long run.

 

Cant wait to destroy WFT tmrw

[Boatdrinks]

No, I think his scrambling has been about right post 2019. Now if Daboll would do something about those pesky designed runs....

[WideNine]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:06 PM, RoyBatty is alive said:

Maybe it should have been.

 

We are talking about a very small sample size, versus Pitt and then a blowout to the Dolphins...hard to get a coherent "theme" from those two disparate games.  One thing he has apparently learned to do is through the ball away, yes its hurt his completion percentage (oh God no, under 60% AGAIN)  but it is a more mature, team productive policy,

 

I dont like the high number of designed QB runs unless they are very yardage/time sensitive.  I also wish we do more QB sneaks.  The number on QB sneak injuries' is stunningly low and this is a big boy with a heart to get the first (thanksgiving versus Dallas).

 

 

 

Also when comparing games you have to account for the Bills playing nearly the whole game vs the Steelers with empty sets and 5 wides while against the fins they used mostly 11 personnel with a running back.

 

Using more 11 personnel they were able to tap the brakes on the fins rush and force them to play us a bit differently.

 

Teams are flooding the shallow zones initially. The Steelers especially have their zone blitz coupled with the "Palms" and 2-read techniques to counter trips and bunch receiver sets and take away the short rhythm passing game.

 

They are in that long enough to disrupt the short timing pass, and apply enough pressure to move a QB off his spot.

 

They then back off into zone shells with 2-3 safeties deep to take away intermediate and deeper options.

 

Josh Allen 1.0 just ran and heaved the ball. Teams threw blitz after blitz at him with man coverage till Josh Allen 1.5 figured that out and tore blitz defenses up. Defenses have changed how they are playing Allen again.

 

Other than better offensive line play and the Bills running the ball, I am not sure what more Allen can do to avoid that early pressure to catch these defenses in coverage transition.

 

If he avoids the rush and sees green in front of him because the coverage is backing off into zones, then by all means he should scramble to the sticks.

 

The only designed runs I like with Allen are his short-yarsage sneaks and option rollouts near the end zone because he can either throw it, pitch it, or run it in himself. That is a lot of options and stress on a defense to defend.

 

One thing I do believe is that the more Daboll and Allen see these defenses the more they will find ways to attack them.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by WideNine

[Alphadawg7]

Clearly they aren't afraid of Allen running given how many RPO's Daboll calls and treats him like a RB way too often with draws right off the snap into the teeth of the D, which is so stupid IMO.  

 

Allen is most dangerous with his legs when extending plays or when there is no one open and there is an open lane.  It baffles me that Daboll hasn't figured this out yet.

[killshot]

He has been shuffling his feet to the left and escaping the pocket to the left and even bootleg to the left , which is not his strong side being a right handed QB , he and his coaches need to find a way to get him to scramble , shuffle , escape to the right side like many times he did last year and got big plays out of these plays. 

[Figster]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Clearly they aren't afraid of Allen running given how many RPO's Daboll calls and treats him like a RB way too often with draws right off the snap into the teeth of the D, which is so stupid IMO.  

 

Allen is most dangerous with his legs when extending plays or when there is no one open and there is an open lane.  It baffles me that Daboll hasn't figured this out yet.

Diggs leading the league in receiving yards last season has forced the opposition to shut him down. Allen did some great things with his arm last season. Buffalo has good RB's that can take the punishment running the football. Allen may have the strongst arm the NFL has ever seen. To me thats what makes Allen special. Longevity would be a good thing. So while I like Allen on the move, distributing the ball like John Elway is more the direction I would like to see Josh Allen go IMO.

 

I'm confident Daboll and Josh Allen know each other well IMO.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Figster

[Governor]

I also hate the designed runs. It’s extremely annoying. Wasted downs.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Maybe TJ Watt knocked it out of him? 

[RunTheBall]

I’m not a defensive guru but it seems to me that defenses have a guy spying on Josh on every play. I’ve noticed when he’s flushed to one side or the other there’s a guy in the box, LB or Safety, who immediately shadows him. I’d think this should open up other stuff for the O to exploit if they know a guy is concentrating on Josh along with this other responsibilities but we need to have an O line that can pass block better to make that happen.

[CheshireCT]

18 hours ago, LEBills said:

So about the OP. 
 

Josh running is still part of the game plan and that is why he is averaging more runs per game now (7 per game) than he did last year.

 

However, I remember last year Josh saying during a press conference that his body hurts more than it probably should. So I don’t think he wants to take it out of his game but he wants to be smarter with it. Rather than running over Van Noy, he is running out of bounds, or sliding at the goal line.

But I think he is especially trying to sit behind the LOS and throw it more rather than scramble. The pass blocking has made it where their are instances he probably should have scrambled more but I think he is trying to figure out a balance.

 

He is our franchise QB. Scrambling but being smart about the shots his body takes is his next step in his evolution. It may lead us to question what is going on early this season but I think it will pay off in the long run.

 

Cant wait to destroy WFT tmrw

 

Fans are generally impatient when it comes to player development. It's impossible for a player to indefinitely ascend while working on new things. Dips are part of the process. And in this case the "dip" is just that he looks less dynamic, he's not making huge mistakes. Watching Josh develop and improve so fast in his first seasons, I have absolutely no worries about the guy.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:34 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

It's impossible to argue that Allen isn't significantly more effective as a scrambler than a designed runner.

 

Like... MUCH more effective.

 

 

Can't you say the same exact thing about every single QB that has ever played the game though? Even the statues like Bledsoe and Marino would have higher ypc on scrambles then they would on designed runs which for them would pretty much be sneaks.

 

I don't know what the right mix of designed run vs. scramble is. But I do tend to agree the designed runs seem a bit too many. Especially in the Steelers game.

[Malazan]

On 9/24/2021 at 4:18 PM, jeremy2020 said:

oh, ffs, Please Allen be lights out because I can't take the endless pontificating of stupid sh*t about it

 

I'd like to thank Allen for granting my request.