I keep hearing on this board that Tremaine Edmunds only makes tackles 5+ yards past the L.O.S..🤔

[GunnerBill]

17 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Enough Said. 👇

 

 

I don't have the numbers for tackles for no gain readily accessible to me. In tackles for loss Devin White has as many in two seasons as Edmunds has in 3 and Edmunds lowest output was 4 in 2020 after a very impressive 10 in 2019. Roquan Smith his fellow 1st round linebacker from the same draft class had one fewer in 2020 than Edmunds has for a career. 

 

I am not an Edmunds hater, but he does still need to make more impact in the run game and generally his play in 2020 was not as good as 2019 when I genuinely felt he was on the cusp of that elite group of linebackers. I'm pretty confident he will bounce back in 2021 but with Edmunds the debate is so polarised and it is a classic case of the truth genuinely being somewhere in the middle. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

17 hours ago, BillsfaninSB said:

I get his point but would like to see where he stood for the 2020 season.  I bet not top 2. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m an Edmunds fan but hoping for a rebound. 

 

17 hours ago, GimmeSomeProcess said:

Of course, the dude had a busted shoulder. Trying to shed blocks and tackle with that is less than ideal. 

 

And not having Star in front of him and Oliver played the first part of the season with a somewhat banged up leg.

[machine gun kelly]

32 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't have the numbers for tackles for no gain readily accessible to me. In tackles for loss Devin White has as many in two seasons as Edmunds has in 3 and Edmunds lowest output was 4 in 2020 after a very impressive 10 in 2019. Roquan Smith his fellow 1st round linebacker from the same draft class had one fewer in 2020 than Edmunds has for a career. 

 

I am not an Edmunds hater, but he does still need to make more impact in the run game and generally his play in 2020 was not as good as 2019 when I genuinely felt he was on the cusp of that elite group of linebackers. I'm pretty confident he will bounce back in 2021 but with Edmunds the debate is so polarised and it is a classic case of the truth genuinely being somewhere in the middle. 

GB as always provides a very pragmatic POV.  He’s not the best and he’s not the worst or even average.  He’s an above average LB that should do well this year.

[DJB]

I'm so glad we have an T Edmunds thread going. 

 

Its been a while since the last one. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't have the numbers for tackles for no gain readily accessible to me. In tackles for loss Devin White has as many in two seasons as Edmunds has in 3 and Edmunds lowest output was 4 in 2020 after a very impressive 10 in 2019. Roquan Smith his fellow 1st round linebacker from the same draft class had one fewer in 2020 than Edmunds has for a career. 

 

I am not an Edmunds hater, but he does still need to make more impact in the run game and generally his play in 2020 was not as good as 2019 when I genuinely felt he was on the cusp of that elite group of linebackers. I'm pretty confident he will bounce back in 2021 but with Edmunds the debate is so polarised and it is a classic case of the truth genuinely being somewhere in the middle. 

 

Leave it to @GunnerBill to bring rational arguments to the conversation.  The jury is still out on Tremaine Edmunds but the potential is there, and anyone who claims to know he "has no instincts" and doesn't make impactful plays is just blowing a lot of smoke or has an agenda.

 

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Leave it to @GunnerBill to bring rational arguments to the conversation.  The jury is still out on Tremaine Edmunds but the potential is there, and anyone who claims to know he "has no instincts" and doesn't make impactful plays is just blowing a lot of smoke or has an agenda.

 

I don’t “claim to know that he has no instincts”, but it’s plain to see, imo, that his instincts are lacking when compared to other “pro bowl” linebackers.  
 

I love the guy.  I just expect much more.  I’ve said in the past that he’s been “ok”.  I looked up synonyms to the adjective “ok” and this is what popped up:

 

OK DEFINITIONS AND SYNONYMS ‌‌‌

ADJECTIVESPOKEN

US/oʊˈkeɪ/

OTHER ENTRIES FOR THIS WORD

+

DEFINITIONS4

1

satisfactory. This word often shows that you think that something is not as good as it could or should be.

 

That’s exactly how I view Edmunds.  He’s satisfactory.  An “ok” player.  I just don’t see much more.  The tools are there to be great, yet he’s not great.  

He wasn’t just “ok” in 2019.  He was better than ok.  I expected more improvement from him in 2020, but he regressed some.  I agree that not having a legit 1T and being injured are legit reasons (not excuses) for this regression.  I don’t think his age is a reason.  Yes, he’s young.  He’s not too young where he can’t be great.  Plenty of athletes have achieved greatness by the age of 22 (his age last season).  3 years experience as a professional > being young.  
 

I expect this to be his make or break year with the bills.  If he comes back around and his play improves on his 2019 season, I’ll be happy and will expect them to resign him long term.  If he doesn’t reach the level of play he achieved in 2019 this season, I don’t think he’ll be worth resigning.  

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't have the numbers for tackles for no gain readily accessible to me. In tackles for loss Devin White has as many in two seasons as Edmunds has in 3 and Edmunds lowest output was 4 in 2020 after a very impressive 10 in 2019. Roquan Smith his fellow 1st round linebacker from the same draft class had one fewer in 2020 than Edmunds has for a career. 

 

I am not an Edmunds hater, but he does still need to make more impact in the run game and generally his play in 2020 was not as good as 2019 when I genuinely felt he was on the cusp of that elite group of linebackers. I'm pretty confident he will bounce back in 2021 but with Edmunds the debate is so polarised and it is a classic case of the truth genuinely being somewhere in the middle. 

 

 

It's polarized because he has such obvious physical talent......was assigned to a de-valued position and has made only a modest impact.......and so much was invested in him (and continues to be with the enormous fully guaranteed 5th year option the team was compelled to pick up).

 

My contention from the start was that it was a gamble putting the top pass rushing prospect from that 2018 draft at MLB.     

 

The Bills thought they had re-invented the wheel with Edmunds..........but MLB's traditionally are a physical reflection of the RB position for a reason.........that's why you don't have guys with edge player physical profiles like Edmunds and Greg Rousseau playing MLB.

 

It absolutely hasn't worked out as planned.   In fact, I think they've been lucky that he's remained as healthy as he has in the middle.

 

And, in the meantime, they haven't had a reliable pass rusher.

 

Yes, Devin White and Roquan Smith had 18 TFL's last year..........they totally outclassed Edmunds and their more traditional physical stature and RB-like instincts are why.............but if Edmunds had been used as an edge all this time I suspect his profile would look like that of a MUCH more valuable player than White or Smith.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t “claim to know that he has no instincts”, but it’s plain to see, imo, that his instincts are lacking when compared to other “pro bowl” linebackers.  
 

I love the guy.  I just expect much more.  I’ve said in the past that he’s been “ok”.  I looked up synonyms to the adjective “ok” and this is what popped up:

 

OK DEFINITIONS AND SYNONYMS ‌‌‌

ADJECTIVESPOKEN

US/oʊˈkeɪ/

OTHER ENTRIES FOR THIS WORD

+

DEFINITIONS4

1

satisfactory. This word often shows that you think that something is not as good as it could or should be.

 

That’s exactly how I view Edmunds.  He’s satisfactory.  An “ok” player.  I just don’t see much more.  The tools are there to be great, yet he’s not great.  

He wasn’t just “ok” in 2019.  He was better than ok.  I expected more improvement from him in 2020, but he regressed some.  I agree that not having a legit 1T and being injured are legit reasons (not excuses) for this regression.  I don’t think his age is a reason.  Yes, he’s young.  He’s not too young where he can’t be great.  Plenty of athletes have achieved greatness by the age of 22 (his age last season).  3 years experience as a professional > being young.  
 

I expect this to be his make or break year with the bills.  If he comes back around and his play improves on his 2019 season, I’ll be happy and will expect them to resign him long term.  If he doesn’t reach the level of play he achieved in 2019 this season, I don’t think he’ll be worth resigning.  

 

 

 

Well put.

 

If he were a 6'1" tall 235# 4th round pick his performance would look a lot better by comparison.

 

He's a lot more talented and invested-in than that.

 

Maybe he puts it together in 2020 and starts looking like a difference maker..........or maybe the wear and tear of the middle continues the 2020 trajectory and takes him the other way.........we shall see.

[PrimeTime101]

5 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

PT101,  well written my friend.  Edmunds has done a lot right, and made some mistakes and played through an injury I suspect was worse than he led on during the season.  Not an excuse, he just didn’t look right from game 3-8.  I wouldn’t say he’s as good as Devin White, but he is a solid LB and looked a lot better when Milano returned.  I called into Polians radio show last week and this was his exact comment that the two compliment each other.  
 

What was Captain Obvious to many of us is our front four just wasn’t getting there.  The closest to a successful season was Hughes as he was in the backfield quick forcing a number of early throws by opposing QB’s.  I’m excited to see what this mew talent will do along with Star back to bring the front four to where it should’ve been last year.  It was by far even more than the pedestrian running game our worst deficiency.

I think what is not obvious to many is how much the defensive line play effects the play of the LBS.

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t “claim to know that he has no instincts”, but it’s plain to see, imo, that his instincts are lacking when compared to other “pro bowl” linebackers.  
 

I love the guy.  I just expect much more.  I’ve said in the past that he’s been “ok”.  I looked up synonyms to the adjective “ok” and this is what popped up:

 

OK DEFINITIONS AND SYNONYMS ‌‌‌

ADJECTIVESPOKEN

US/oʊˈkeɪ/

OTHER ENTRIES FOR THIS WORD

+

DEFINITIONS4

1

satisfactory. This word often shows that you think that something is not as good as it could or should be.

 

That’s exactly how I view Edmunds.  He’s satisfactory.  An “ok” player.  I just don’t see much more.  The tools are there to be great, yet he’s not great.  

He wasn’t just “ok” in 2019.  He was better than ok.  I expected more improvement from him in 2020, but he regressed some.  I agree that not having a legit 1T and being injured are legit reasons (not excuses) for this regression.  I don’t think his age is a reason.  Yes, he’s young.  He’s not too young where he can’t be great.  Plenty of athletes have achieved greatness by the age of 22 (his age last season).  3 years experience as a professional > being young.  
 

I expect this to be his make or break year with the bills.  If he comes back around and his play improves on his 2019 season, I’ll be happy and will expect them to resign him long term.  If he doesn’t reach the level of play he achieved in 2019 this season, I don’t think he’ll be worth resigning.  

 

I don't think Edmunds regressed.. Read my comment earlier in this thread. Defensive lines should dictate where and how offensive lines block.. not the other way around. Our defensive line sucked last year.... the line had 0 gap control and offensive lines could pretty much do what they wanted with our line.

 

you have to grasp onto 2 things. 

 

1. our defensive line SUCKED and that 100% effects LB play. Now I am not saying you are clueless to this fact but many are

 

2. The guy was injured and played injured so much of that year last year.

 

I think Edmunds is top 7-10 MLB in this league with so much potential to be better. If you think that makes Edmunds "just ok" then I don't know what to say.

 

This short article says it all

https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/bills/leslie-frazier-says-tremaine-edmunds-story-isnt-written-yet-on-his-career/71-fdd1644e-f726-4eb0-a2af-6072ede7c720

 

If Frazier is confident that the story is not written on his career then that brings me confidents. There are so many things that was screwy about last year that put way to much pressure on ILB last year...

 

Playing nickel defense so often, Horrid line play and his injuries all had a hand

 

These are not excuses my friend... these are facts.

[NewEra]

23 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think what is not obvious to many is how much the defensive line play effects the play of the LBS.

I don't think Edmunds regressed.. Read my comment earlier in this thread. Defensive lines should dictate where and how offensive lines block.. not the other way around. Our defensive line sucked last year.... the line had 0 gap control and offensive lines could pretty much do what they wanted with our line.

 

you have to grasp onto 2 things. 

 

1. our defensive line SUCKED and that 100% effects LB play. Now I am not saying you are clueless to this fact but many are

 

2. The guy was injured and played injured so much of that year last year.

 

I think Edmunds is top 7-10 MLB in this league with so much potential to be better. If you think that makes Edmunds "just ok" then I don't know what to say.

 

This short article says it all

https://www.wgrz.com/article/sports/nfl/bills/leslie-frazier-says-tremaine-edmunds-story-isnt-written-yet-on-his-career/71-fdd1644e-f726-4eb0-a2af-6072ede7c720

 

If Frazier is confident that the story is not written on his career then that brings me confidents. There are so many things that was screwy about last year that put way to much pressure on ILB last year...

 

Playing nickel defense so often, Horrid line play and his injuries all had a hand

 

These are not excuses my friend... these are facts.

I said exactly that…..lack of a 1T and his injury were REASONS, not excuses, why he wasn’t as good in 20 as he was in 19.  He DID regress last year.  He wasn’t as good as he was the previous year. The reasons he regressed have been stated.   
 

you
 

regarding the bolded at the bottom…..I said DL and injuries were reasons……not excuses.  You must have read it wrong.
 

In short, you agree with everything that I said.   The only difference that I see is that you think that his play didn’t actually regress, because the regression that we all saw, was caused by the DL and injuries.  I think his play regressed, while DL and injuries played a major role in his regression….but that doesn’t mean he didn’t regress.

[Jobot]

Our defensive game plan over the past two years is as follows:

 

"Don't get outsmarted"

 

We haven't had the level of D-line talent to enforce our will.  Career years coming up for many of our guys this season!

[PrimeTime101]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I said exactly that…..lack of a 1T and his injury were REASONS, not excuses, why he wasn’t as good in 20 as he was in 19.  He DID regress last year.  He wasn’t as good as he was the previous year. The reasons he regressed have been stated.   
 

you
 

regarding the bolded at the bottom…..I said DL and injuries were reasons……not excuses.  You must have read it wrong.
 

In short, you agree with everything that I said.   The only difference that I see is that you think that his play didn’t actually regress, because the regression that we all saw, was caused by the DL and injuries.  I think his play regressed, while DL and injuries played a major role in his regression….but that doesn’t mean he didn’t regress.

your right I did read it wrong. To much V8 I guess my bad lol

[JerseyBills]

18 hours ago, billybrew1 said:

IDK? I'm pretty surprised by this. It goes against what my eyes are telling me.....I mean, I really watch.

Im also a Tremaine fan, but I hope he gets better.... a lot better.... I have seen Tremaine wait for the RB to cross the LOS before engaging. Like he was coached to do that. He makes so many tackles downfield it's crazy.

I call shenanigans on this stat.

 

It's a legit stat.

Bruce provides evidence in the thread.

I thought in 2020 Edmunds was hampered by that injury until around week 8-9 and he started looking MUCH better. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that the defense as a whole also got MUCH better.  

 

He does have his bad moments but so does everyone playing in his position. He's extremely reliable, a physical freak,teammates love him and I believe is still a couple years from reaching his ceiling. 

Great 3 down Mike LBs are not easy to find and I do believe he will be a great 1..

[ndirish1978]

I don't get the hate, I like him

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

I don't get the hate, I like him

I like him too.  The fact is, he hasn’t lived up to my expectations of him.  He’s been an ok LB that was drafted 16th overall.  Thoughts were, this guy can be a star.  He hasn’t played like a star. He’s played pretty good at times and even very good in some games.  I just expected more.  He’s the guy that can transform this D if he can put it all together and dominate 

[Doc]

I don't get the hate either.  He's been played out-of-position.  That's not his fault, and neither is where he was picked.  It's not like he called them up and demanded he be selected there, much less played at MLB.

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

I don't get the hate either.  He's been played out-of-position.  That's not his fault, and neither is where he was picked.  It's not like he called them up and demanded he be selected there, much less played at MLB.

Are people really “hating” on him.  I don’t think anyone is maliciously going after him. People are stating that he is has underperformed.  I didn’t pay close attention to the replies in this thread, but what are some examples of the “hate” that is being spread?  I’m not saying some aren’t, I just haven’t seen anything too harsh 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Are people really “hating” on him.  I don’t think anyone is maliciously going after him. People are stating that he is has underperformed.  I didn’t pay close attention to the replies in this thread, but what are some examples of the “hate” that is being spread?  I’m not saying some aren’t, I just haven’t seen anything too harsh 

 

Not necessarily hate.  It's just the term that's being thrown around. 

[PrimeTime101]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Not necessarily hate.  It's just the term that's being thrown around. 

I think to some that look ad Edmunds and thinks so highly of them then others think so much lower of him it feels like hate

45 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

I don't get the hate, I like him

I don't think its hate.. just feels that way because some of us are very optimistic and others.. meh

16 minutes ago, Doc said:

I don't get the hate either.  He's been played out-of-position.  That's not his fault, and neither is where he was picked.  It's not like he called them up and demanded he be selected there, much less played at MLB.

to your bolded.. how do you feel Edmunds has been played out of positing? cause he is a 4-3 MLB and we play mostly nickel? or is it something else?

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

to your bolded.. how do you feel Edmunds has been played out of positing? cause he is a 4-3 MLB and we play mostly nickel? or is it something else?

 

Outside linebacker and edge rusher.

[PrimeTime101]

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Outside linebacker and edge rusher.

ok but that's opinionated that he should play that position not more factual. but i see it and get it lol

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

ok but that's opinionated that he should play that position not more factual. but i see it and get it lol

 

Not really opinion: that's where he played in college. Obviously McD and co. know a hell of a lot more than I do, but I think they're trying to find their Kuechly and pounding a square peg into a round hole (that part is opinion).  I'd just hate to have tried him at MLB for the first 4 years, (potentially) give up on him and see him excel elsewhere at OLB.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Doc

[BADOLBILZ]

46 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Are people really “hating” on him.  

 

 

No, they aren't.

 

It's just typical "apologist speak".........people like @eball exaggerate the criticisms to make them seem unfair.

 

[Teddy KGB]

Watching Hamilton with the volume on 30 > reading this thread.  
 

 

[PrimeTime101]

59 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Not really opinion: that's where he played in college. Obviously McD and co. know a hell of a lot more than I do, but I think they're trying to find their Kuechly and pounding a square peg into a round hole (that part is opinion).  I'd just hate to have tried him at MLB for the first 4 years, (potentially) give up on him and see him excel elsewhere at OLB.

your opinion is he would be better with what he did in college as edge. McD' opinion is that he should be an ILB. Coaches opinion that matters in this case he played the position he is being paid for.. 

 

All that being said.. I agree.. he would be a better OLB/EDGE

[Nuncha]

Imagine what his numbers would be if the D-line was better last season and if he were healthy the entire year.

 

This season should be much better for him with the D-line improvements made and hopefully he can stay healthy.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Azucho98

[YattaOkasan]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:19 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Look at the probability issue this way:   

 

1) A tackle for no gain focuses ONLY on one specific yard of the field.   It's a much more specific stat than a TFL.   Not going to argue over "zero" so let's just say there approximately 100 individual potential yardage outcomes on a handoff.   A run for -11 and a run for +72 yards are both on the rare end of that range......but just like a TFNG each of those are 1 specific possible yardage outcome of a handoff from the middle of your own end of the field.  

 

2) You can only be tackled where there are tacklers.   The only area of the field where there are always a lot of tacklers for the RB to evade is right at the LOS.     So while you may have a wide assortment of yardage outcomes on 25 handoffs in a game.......and the vast majority of them will be for a gain......the MOST LIKELY of all possible specific yardage gained results on run plays in general is going to be zero.

 

You can say I am de-valuing a tackle for no gain.........but I don't think so........they are going to happen FREQUENTLY regardless.    And not even so much on first down like you are talking about.......a lot of times on 2nd and short, 3rd and short.......goal line.....teams practically run themselves into no-gain outcomes all the time.

 

And those don't necessarily prove a lot about the individual talent on either side of the ball.  And one of the reasons statisticians don't value a net zero play as much as a negative play is because tackles at the LOS often don't require a great deal of individual skill.   If the DL ties up their gaps and just leaves a narrow space to run or forces a runner horizontal for the free flowing LB SHOULD make the tackle every time.   An open field tackle is often a much higher degree of difficulty.

 

As such.......negative plays begin with run TFL's and escalate in importance into sacks and turnovers.

 

We isolate them because we know the statistical importance of forced negative plays in the outcome of games.   

  

 

I don’t think TFNG is the mode in this data set as it’s only 9% of the data set. Getting some gain will almost certainly be a higher percentage.  I understand your point of TFNG being a big number but all TFL is actually a bigger number so it’s a mischaracterization to say it’s a little important number being added to an insignificant big number. 
 

 Your point on short distance situations is interesting too. You have de valued them quite a bit IMO. A TFNG in short yardage situation is more beneficial than on first down.  This is in a direct sense. If you are trying to say a TFL on first down is more important because they indirectly cause turnovers then I could be convinced (show the data please). However the short yardage TFNG causes punts (as you said desirable) or keeps points off the board. 
 

you say the position is devalued but then say how much his 5th year contract is and he should just be an edge. All these things can’t be true. He made a pro bowl (without doing well in fan vote). And part of the 5th year formula incorporates how much the position gets paid. 
 

he needs to play better than last year but he’s above average and flirting with top 10 seems right to me. 

[GoBills808]

15 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Not really opinion: that's where he played in college. Obviously McD and co. know a hell of a lot more than I do, but I think they're trying to find their Kuechly and pounding a square peg into a round hole (that part is opinion).  I'd just hate to have tried him at MLB for the first 4 years, (potentially) give up on him and see him excel elsewhere at OLB.

He played all over in college. Including MLB.

[Patrick Duffy]

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Good thing the future hall of famer Star Lotulelei is back….

Yeah I'm one of those that's not confident his return will make a whole lot of difference, at least not to the degree that some here do that I've seen. I mean I am hopeful and will be beyond a good thing if it does by all means. Definitely will be cheering for him and everyone else as always....

 

I think he will help some for sure, but just don't think it will be to the degree that some do

[Sharky7337]

On 6/29/2021 at 4:29 PM, Doc Brown said:

He got it from PFF who has Edmunds as the 24th best LB entering 2021 (Milano was 11th).  https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker-rankings-entering-2021-nfl-season

 

He got those numbers from PFF.

If I'm Bobby Wagner I'm scared to be mentioned in the same paragraph.

[4merper4mer]

22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, they aren't.

 

It's just typical "apologist speak".........people like @eball exaggerate the criticisms to make them seem unfair.

 

How many times have you read on this board someone wanting to trade Edmunds?  How many times for all of our other starter’s combined?

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

I don’t think TFNG is the mode in this data set as it’s only 9% of the data set. Getting some gain will almost certainly be a higher percentage.  I understand your point of TFNG being a big number but all TFL is actually a bigger number so it’s a mischaracterization to say it’s a little important number being added to an insignificant big number. 
 

 Your point on short distance situations is interesting too. You have de valued them quite a bit IMO. A TFNG in short yardage situation is more beneficial than on first down.  This is in a direct sense. If you are trying to say a TFL on first down is more important because they indirectly cause turnovers then I could be convinced (show the data please). However the short yardage TFNG causes punts (as you said desirable) or keeps points off the board. 
 

you say the position is devalued but then say how much his 5th year contract is and he should just be an edge. All these things can’t be true. He made a pro bowl (without doing well in fan vote). And part of the 5th year formula incorporates how much the position gets paid. 
 

he needs to play better than last year but he’s above average and flirting with top 10 seems right to me. 

 

 

1) Regarding your first paragraph......you are of course correct that most runs result in a "some" gain of yardage.   Last season the average carry netted 4.4 yards.

 

But "some" is not a specific yardage number........a TFNG = exactly 0 yards gained.    Your team may only run for zero gain 3 times in a game but they aren't likely to run for any other exact yardage amount......positive or negative......... more often than they run for exactly zero.   

 

2)  TFNG are valuable......one yard more valuable than a tackle for 1 yard gain......2 yards more valuable than a TF2YG.......3 yards more valuable than a 1 yard sack.    As I've said, stats like TFL and sacks are broad and they don't ALWAYS reflect exceptional individual performance........but if a player gets a lot of them it's fair to assume that player is doing exceptional work.   I pointed out two other MLB's that had 18 TFL each last year........Edmunds had only 4.    That's a very big difference.

 

3) MLB is ABSOLUTELY a devalued position........much like the RB position, you need one but you don't need a star quality one.    And just like Derrick Henry is a playmaking difference maker at RB.......a guy like Devin White can be that at MLB.    

 

Tremaine Edmunds.........despite physically being the "Derrick Henry of MLB's".......an absolute freak........has not been a game changing,  playmaking,  difference making MLB.

 

He's been above average in a league where there aren't many above average MLB's......and a league where there don't need to be.   Average is fine at that position.    Average is NOT fine at pass rusher..........and that is a position that Edmunds seems to project much better too. 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by BADOLBILZ

[YattaOkasan]

On 7/1/2021 at 8:46 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Regarding your first paragraph......you are of course correct that most runs result in a "some" gain of yardage.   Last season the average carry netted 4.4 yards.

 

But "some" is not a specific yardage number........a TFNG = exactly 0 yards gained.    Your team may only run for zero gain 3 times in a game but they aren't likely to run for any other exact yardage amount......positive or negative......... more often than they run for exactly zero.   

 

2)  TFNG are valuable......one yard more valuable than a tackle for 1 yard gain......2 yards more valuable than a TF2YG.......3 yards more valuable than a 1 yard sack.    As I've said, stats like TFL and sacks are broad and they don't ALWAYS reflect exceptional individual performance........but if a player gets a lot of them it's fair to assume that player is doing exceptional work.   I pointed out two other MLB's that had 18 TFL each last year........Edmunds had only 4.    That's a very big difference.

 

3) MLB is ABSOLUTELY a devalued position........much like the RB position, you need one but you don't need a star quality one.    And just like Derrick Henry is a playmaking difference maker at RB.......a guy like Devin White can be that at MLB.    

 

Tremaine Edmunds.........despite physically being the "Derrick Henry of MLB's".......an absolute freak........has not been a game changing,  playmaking,  difference making MLB.

 

He's been above average in a league where there aren't many above average MLB's......and a league where there don't need to be.   Average is fine at that position.    Average is NOT fine at pass rusher..........and that is a position that Edmunds seems to project much better too. 

 

 

Thanks for the response. Appreciate the 2nd point. And agree with much of the third (I don’t think McD thinks it’s devalued).
 

on the first point I guess we need to think about exact yardage and how the data set was formed. If it is in integers I am very certain that 0 is not the mode. 1 or 2 would seem to be the most common result.  If we’re gonna parse it out to decimals the. Yes you’re probably right TFNG would be higher but i strongly doubt any data set would have that much granularity. 

[akcash]

This is me speaking objectively and I like Tremaine and hope all works out I  future. Last year did absolutely nothing to help that stat.

[HardyBoy]

On 6/30/2021 at 1:15 AM, Richard Noggin said:

Pretty please run the numbers and share the infographic! Pretty please!

 

I pulled some initial stuff. Based on the distribution of running yards, the most likely place to get tackled on a run is not the line of scrimmage (did not qa my data or logic much at all tbf).

 

What's more interesting is I did some super initial analysis to compare how many yards down field were solo tackles by down, specifically looking at Edmunds vs Wagner. I just did a box and whisker without looking at the specific quartile numbers, and these are small sample sizes for sure (just 2020 in my initial pass), but they look fairly similar, with Wagner getting more tackles for no gain or better, but it wasn't a huge diff (at the scale I was looking the differences appeared minimal, but would want to zoom in to get a better sense at some point).

 

So what is my main takeaway? I just looked a solo tackles, and neither player looked great (I should get an Brian U season for a baseline I guess). Building in logic to get assisted tackles is a bit more work, but my initial thought is if you are having your middle linebacker making solo tackles, then you are already in trouble. That means the rb is able to dictate the run and the dline is not controlling the game.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

Those whining about Edmunds criticism go back and watch the first patriots game from last year. He was the worst player on the field by far.

After that game I couldn’t help but notice his poor play the rest of the season. I’m not sure I can be convinced it’s mostly due to injury. I keep an open mind, but there are plays where there is no way it is the D line’s fault. 
 

Hopefully I’m wrong and he is healthy and improved next season. 
 

As for the calls for him to be traded. I chalk that up to his perceived value around the league being higher than his actually play on the field. His pro bowl selection was a joke. The best MLBs are in the NFC and Hightower, Mosley, and Bush didn’t play last season in the AFC. 

 

 

[BurpleBull]

On 6/29/2021 at 7:01 PM, TBBills said:

He is the anti Kiko Alonso. With Kiko people tried to find ways he was awesome, with Edmunds they try to find a way he sucks.

 

I don't remember Alonso being terrible.

[TBBills]

2 minutes ago, BurpleBull said:

 

I don't remember Alonso being terrible.

It's best you remember it that way.

[BurpleBull]

13 hours ago, TBBills said:

It's best you remember it that way.

 

I don't remember Alonso being terrible, much like I don't remember Edmunds being this great run stopper the way much of the board suddenly seems to after a tweet. 

[GETTOTHE50]

I’ve said it before, but he needs to work on his pre-snap reads.

 

He will be able to play more instinctive when he has an idea of what play is coming and will also be able to check into a different play for the defense.