JGMcD2 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: The thing is it's not that easy to figure out. Spotrac/OTC have positional breakdowns for ST but that is just P/K/LS. Teams have ST players but they are in different positions. T. Jones for instance is a RB. Yeah... I had to go back and forth between Spotrac and PFR snap counts to break down those two Pats (2018 and 2016) and the Chiefs (2020). If there’s an easier way to see it... I would love it haha. But I think I’m going to have to go and do it manually because I can’t find the combination of the two... but if @BADOLBILZhas a link somewhere with that information combined it would be huge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said: The Patriots didn’t win Super Bowls 25 years ago...they won them recently. When did Desmond Howard win MVP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: When did Desmond Howard win MVP? He won it in 1997 I believe. When did the Patriots win Super Bowls? Did you not see where I was going with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) So then your saying hire a bunch of hacks that can't cover and the opposition on every kick can run it back for a TD because we don't have any one to cover them & the punter shanks every other punt so the other team has awesome field position . 🤔 Makes total sense Oh and the place kicker screw him any one can kick a field goal it's only 20 yds !! I'll trust Beane and McD's opinion over yours sorry it takes all 3 phases of the game to win convincingly if needed at some point in the season . Edited March 19, 2021 by T master 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 6 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Yeah... I had to go back and forth between Spotrac and PFR snap counts to break down those two Pats (2018 and 2016) and the Chiefs (2020). If there’s an easier way to see it... I would love it haha. But I think I’m going to have to go and do it manually because I can’t find the combination of the two... but if @BADOLBILZhas a link somewhere with that information combined it would be huge. I'm going to guess Baldo made it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 hours ago, FireChans said: This is lunacy. This is idiotic. Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter? The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. It’s upsetting to say the least. You have an opinion. Wow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGMcD2 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I'm going to guess Baldo made it up. I’d like to make it clear that I don’t think he made anything up... I would just like to know where the information came from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted March 19, 2021 Author Share Posted March 19, 2021 51 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: I believe he's referring to Taiwan, Tyler M and Roberts last year. All those guys can play other positions, they are just last on your depth chart. I "can" also play RB, I would just suck at it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: I’d like to make it clear that I don’t think he made anything up... I would just like to know where the information came from. I've known him for years on these and the old BBMB days....I think he made it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 hours ago, FireChans said: This is lunacy. This is idiotic. Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter? The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. It’s upsetting to say the least. Go away with this 🗑 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 2 minutes ago, FireChans said: I "can" also play RB, I would just suck at it. Do you ever ponder why they call it a serial killer? Like you just don't understand how multiple murders and breakfast food go together for that term? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Do you ever ponder why they call it a serial killer? Like you just don't understand how multiple murders and breakfast food go together for that term? One of the many TBD'ers that likely doesn't actually watch football. Or eat serial. Edited March 19, 2021 by Heitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinTheMagician Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Keep this thread going - 50 page min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDhill2 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 This post is just stupid... 1 year ago you were probably the guy bitching about how bad our special teams were. Go complain about your gas or electric bill to someone if you are looking for a grievance. Jesus, what is your alternative idea and plan for Bills special teams? if you are so freaking smart what would you do and why? Also, how are you going to back up your why with data? Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thandGoal Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 hours ago, FireChans said: This is lunacy. This is idiotic. Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter? The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. It’s upsetting to say the least. HAHAHAHAH,,,, Someone pee in your cheerios. I guess when you become coach--- you can get id of special teams, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Hell, Beane is doubling down on special teams this season. HE must still think it’s important. He even brought in a new punter who he believes will give us better field position more consistently. Special Teams matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern_Bills Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 I love it, we are so good we are actually complaining one unit is TOO good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rk_Bills86 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) I mean with the exception of Tyler Matakevich (who we have yet to see his restructured contract), where are we "Dedicating" a ton of money to? LS: $1.14 Million (for a guy who's name you hope you never hear) K: $826k P: $1.5 Million Taiwan Jones 2021 contract details don't seem to be out Did I miss something? Because Tyler Matakevich appears to currently be the only ST ace making over $1.5 Million (and that might not be true) and he is a backup ILB Edited March 19, 2021 by Rk_Bills86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said: We were 28th last year without a rookie kicker. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/2020/special/ Not sure what you are looking at. For 2020 it has Bass included. This is only the P,K, and LS. Which are cheap because Bass is on a rookie deal with some kickers making 6-7 times as much as he does. This is not a true reflection of spend on STs. It has Bills spending $2.38M. Matakevich alone was $2.75 M in guaranteed salary. Roberts was $1.3M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Not sure what you are looking at. For 2020 it has Bass included. This is only the P,K, and LS. Which are cheap because Bass is on a rookie deal with some kickers making 6-7 times as much as he does. This is not a true reflection of spend on STs. It has Bills spending $2.38M. Matakevich alone was $2.75 M in guaranteed salary. Roberts was $1.3M. I got the year mixed up. 2018, we were 14th with a non-rookie kicker. Matakevich and Roberts both play other positions. Roberts was our 6th WR and Matkevich is a 3rd string linebacker. That where they are listed. Most 3rd string players don't make the team if they can't special teams. For whatever reason, fans have problems with us doing it when every single NFL team does. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Just now, Royale with Cheese said: I got the year mixed up. 2018, we were 14th with a non-rookie kicker. Matakevich and Roberts both play other positions. Roberts was our 6th WR and Matkevich is a 3rd string linebacker. That where they are listed. Most 3rd string players don't make the team if they can't special teams. For whatever reason, fans have problems with us doing it when every single NFL team does. Agree on the 3rd stringers, but I'm not sure all teams spend $2.75 M on a 3rd string LB. I think people like myself think you don't have to pay 3rd string players $2.75 M for 10 special teams tackles all year. I believe you can get an UDFA small LB with speed to get 10 special teams tackles for the league minimum. Roberts had an impact - not denying that, but how many times did we also say please just stay in the endzone. A DB that is your 8th or 9th DB can field punts and kick-offs and they do not need to be paid $1.3 M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: Agree on the 3rd stringers, but I'm not sure all teams spend $2.75 M on a 3rd string LB. I think people like myself think you don't have to pay 3rd string players $2.75 M for 10 special teams tackles all year. I believe you can get an UDFA small LB with speed to get 10 special teams tackles for the league minimum. Roberts had an impact - not denying that, but how many times did we also say please just stay in the endzone. A DB that is your 8th or 9th DB can field punts and kick-offs and they do not need to be paid $1.3 M. You can't always box score scout. You are only seeing the broadcast view and you don't know what's happening when the ball is in the air because it's not on the screen. If you can get a UDFA small LB with speed for league minimum, then every team would only do that. Why aren't they? Tyler Matkevich is getting a higher salary because he's a good special teams guy. If he was only a 3rd string linebacker and average special teammer, then he wouldn't make that much. Did Brad Lamb make as much as Steve Tasker? You generally pay more for a better player. Matthew Slater has been extended 3 times by the Pats. He's literally only a Special Teams guy. He has one catch in his 13 year career. For some reason, we aren't allowed to use him as an example. The Patriots went on the greatest run in NFL history and they always focused on special teams....but we can't use them as an example. Edited March 19, 2021 by Royale with Cheese 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Says Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 4 hours ago, FireChans said: It’s really not. At all. If it makes you feel any better, Bills dont have have a kick returner ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 4 hours ago, NewEra said: Don’t forget....... ah nm, I don’t want to get suspended I am so confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 FireChans is just PO’ed that Jauronimo’s QB controversy thread went down in flames. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said: You can't always box score scout. You are only seeing the broadcast view and you don't know what's happening when the ball is in the air because it's not on the screen. Tyler Matkevich is getting a higher salary because he's a good special teams guy. If he was only a 3rd string linebacker and average special teammer, then he wouldn't make that much. Did Brad Lamb make as much as Steve Tasker? You generally pay more for a better player. Matthew Slater has been extended 3 times by the Pats. He's literally only a Special Teams guy. He has one catch in his 13 year career. For some reason, we aren't allowed to use him as an example. The Patriots went on the greatest run in NFL history and they always focused on special teams....but we can't use them as an example. Yup. Generally the Super Bowl winner cares about special teams. The Gosselin rankings consistently reflect that. It's not common when a Super Bowl winner isn't top ten in Gosselin. Smart teams recognize that they can get an advantage in special teams and they do it. It does cost a bit extra, but the extra we pay for special teamers is miniscule in terms of it's percentage of the salary cap. The Pats are a great example, but while the Chiefs didn't make the top ten this year, they did in 2019 and 2018. Reid cares about STs. I can't find the STs rankings for 2018, there's some kind of tech problem at the Dallas news, but the Eagles had been #1 in STs the year before they won the SB. They care. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedboy7 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 You are right. I suggest we fire McBean and put in someone who gets it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 5 hours ago, FireChans said: This is lunacy. This is idiotic. Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter? The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. It’s upsetting to say the least. They would just use it on the d line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, FireChans said: This is lunacy. This is idiotic. Can someone point out what Super Bowl champion or hell, even recent contender, that dedicated this much money and effort to STers? It flies in the face of modern NFLdom. Rule changes have basically eliminated the return game. Why are we signing top end STers to prop up this phase, instead of dedicating more money to the other phases that actually matter? The ST coach’s job on a team that’s contending should be to coach up a bunch of cheap backups and late round draft picks into a decent unit. Not need dedicated gunners being signed to modest contracts. It’s upsetting to say the least. overreacting, even for around here. I assume you’re reacting to the T. Jones resigning. You need to understand we’re talking about a small handful of specialist guys at the bottom of your roster. Replacing those guys with marginally better offensive or defensive talents isn’t going to make your team any better; those guys are still going to be 3rd or 4th stringers depending on position group and see next to no actual game snaps. In fact, it probably makes your team worse overall, because abandoning impact players on special teams (they do still exist, despite your ranting) hurts the team more than saving a couple of guys who get <5 snaps a game. Edited March 19, 2021 by JoPoy88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 How on Earth is this thread at 10 pages? Lmao 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: How on Earth is this thread at 10 pages? Lmao People love to humor firechans’ ravings I guess. Pretty sure that’s what he’s going for, so win/win I suppose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGMcD2 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 (edited) I am going to wrap this thread up at 10 pages with actual information from the 2020 season as it pertains to ST only players and the resources allocated to them. I'll define here what I considered a ST only player... A ST only player is a player that played over 40% of snaps on ST while simultaneously playing less than 10% of snaps on offense and/or defense. This does not include specialists (K, P or LS). I went on PFR and went through all 14 teams that qualified for the playoffs. I sorted by ST snaps and took every player that fit my criteria listed above (40% > ST snaps and <10% off/def snaps). From there I went to Spotrac and individually searched every player that fit my criteria to figure out each player's average salary from the 2020 season. To recap: Only playoff teams Must be a free agent signing Must play more than 40% of ST snaps Must play less than 10% of snaps on offense or defense Does not include K, P or LS Findings: 10/14 playoff teams employed players on their rosters in 2020 to play primarily special teams. The average playoff team allocated roster spots to 2 ST players signed to UFA deals. $5M - Bills, Steelers and Saints $4M - Buccaneers $3.5M - Bears $3M - Titans, Ravens $2M - Seahawks $1M - Chiefs and Football Team Conclusion: Yes, the Buffalo Bills were at the upper limit when it came to playoff teams spending money on ST but they did not significantly outspend the teams around them. New Orleans and Pittsburgh spent just as much with the Super Bowl champs right behind them. They also have not wasted roster spots on ST players any more than any other playoff team. Verdict: This thread is a bust. Edited March 19, 2021 by JGMcD2 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 8 hours ago, 17islongenough said: This board is crazy Yo, fast man, I was crazy insane for this little ..... Crazy? Insane? I was nuts for this woman. Enjoy. A frat buddy and myself used to imitate this scene all the time when at parties. He loved my Hall voice. Great movie for the youngins. It’s silly but hilarious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: I am going to wrap this thread up at 10 pages with actual information from the 2020 season as it pertains to ST only players and the resources allocated to them. I'll define here what I considered a ST only player... A ST only player is a player that played over 40% of snaps on ST while simultaneously playing less than 10% of snaps on offense and/or defense. This does not include specialists (K, P or LS). I went on PFR and went through all 14 teams that qualified for the playoffs. I sorted by ST snaps and took every player that fit my criteria listed above (40% > ST snaps and <10% off/def snaps). From there I went to Spotrac and individually searched every player that fit my criteria to figure out each player's average salary from the 2020 season. To recap: Only playoff teams Must be a free agent signing Must player more than 40% of ST snaps Must play less than 10% of snaps on offense or defense Does not include K, P or LS Findings: 10/14 playoff teams employed players on their rosters in 2020 to play primarily special teams. The average playoff team allocated roster spots to 2 ST players signed to UFA deals. $5M - Bills, Steelers and Saints $4M - Buccaneers $3.5M - Bears $3M - Titans, Ravens $2M - Seahawks $1M - Chiefs and Football Team Conclusion: Yes, the Buffalo Bills were at the upper limit when it came to playoff teams spending money on ST but they did not significantly outspend the teams around them. New Orleans and Pittsburgh spent just as much with the Super Bowl champs right behind them. They also have not wasted roster spots on ST players any more than any other playoff team. Verdict: This thread is a bust. Dude, nice research. Seriously, good call on this one. I’m impressed. Keep up the good work. I love when guys think about a topic, do research, and place a very thoughtful well informed response. Not that the OP was wrong as his impression was an overspend on ST, but this kind of reply places things into perspective. Im glad we do our best to field a solid team on ST. My guess and have nothing to back it up, but the Ravens HC, a guy I respect in Harbaugh came from ST. If the results came up as we spend $11 mil., and every other playoff team avg. $3 mil, then ok., but not what you found. Well done brother. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milanos Milano Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 Sounds like the OP accidentally brushed his teeth with vagisil again and he’s taking the anger out on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPJax Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 8 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: For your sake, I really hope this is parody. Otherwise, this view is clueless and disturbing. Can you count the games that swung in our favor by Bojo’s & Bass’ kicks? Roberts returns? Endzone KO’s? Kick coverage? i’d venture we have more starters playing ‘teams’ than any other playoff team. Are you old enough to remember Steve Tasker? Lou Piccone? Steve Christie? Marv Levy??? Do you even understand football?? Pretty sure guy is trolling for fun now when reading his posts below this. Statements get more nonsensical and doubles Down despite several pages of facts, not opinions, disproving his OP. PLUS has been on here awhile with many posts. No one actually thinking that way would stay here or last that long on this board where it’s hard to get away with even simple mistakes at times! 😀😂. We have been had. Lamp stuff; time to shut it down and use life’s precious time becoming more educated, not lobotomized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 1 hour ago, JGMcD2 said: I am going to wrap this thread up at 10 pages with actual information from the 2020 season as it pertains to ST only players and the resources allocated to them. I'll define here what I considered a ST only player... A ST only player is a player that played over 40% of snaps on ST while simultaneously playing less than 10% of snaps on offense and/or defense. This does not include specialists (K, P or LS). I went on PFR and went through all 14 teams that qualified for the playoffs. I sorted by ST snaps and took every player that fit my criteria listed above (40% > ST snaps and <10% off/def snaps). From there I went to Spotrac and individually searched every player that fit my criteria to figure out each player's average salary from the 2020 season. To recap: Only playoff teams Must be a free agent signing Must play more than 40% of ST snaps Must play less than 10% of snaps on offense or defense Does not include K, P or LS Findings: 10/14 playoff teams employed players on their rosters in 2020 to play primarily special teams. The average playoff team allocated roster spots to 2 ST players signed to UFA deals. $5M - Bills, Steelers and Saints $4M - Buccaneers $3.5M - Bears $3M - Titans, Ravens $2M - Seahawks $1M - Chiefs and Football Team Conclusion: Yes, the Buffalo Bills were at the upper limit when it came to playoff teams spending money on ST but they did not significantly outspend the teams around them. New Orleans and Pittsburgh spent just as much with the Super Bowl champs right behind them. They also have not wasted roster spots on ST players any more than any other playoff team. Verdict: This thread is a bust. awesome, excellent research. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 He did a lot of work on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locomark Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 I get the frustration about Taiwan. Every SB team usually has certain ingredients which include some special team star. Problem is Taiwan Jones is no star and he wastes a RB spot every week which means we often sit someone that could impact our crap running game. Can’t we find a friggin CB or WR gunner so we can dress someone that has value beyond 1 tackle a game? The guy doesn’t even make kickoff tackles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 19, 2021 Share Posted March 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Locomark said: I get the frustration about Taiwan. Every SB team usually has certain ingredients which include some special team star. Problem is Taiwan Jones is no star and he wastes a RB spot every week which means we often sit someone that could impact our crap running game. Can’t we find a friggin CB or WR gunner so we can dress someone that has value beyond 1 tackle a game? The guy doesn’t even make kickoff tackles! Why does it matter that it is a running back rather than a kicker or a WR? The Bills are a pass heavy team. How often have they given 3 different backs carries in the same game since McDermott has been here? I'd venture not many. 3rd running back dressed on gameday is as "bottom of the roster" as it gets in Buffalo. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts