A complete offense matters

[FieldGeneral]

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

[Meatloaf63]

Absolutely correct. Our oline needs to be better at pass protection as well as run blocking. People are talking about how good Brady was last night, they should be talking about how good the oline was. Brady like most Qb’s isn’t even average when his line doesn’t perform. But he still can play when they do. Put Allen on TB last night and they score even more, maybe every drive.

i hope Bean understands this , O & D line improvement is paramount for this team’s success moving forward.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Meatloaf63

[BearNorth]

Since hindsight is always 20-20, In the 2015 draft we picked Darby, later that round Marpet, who played college in the Bills home area, was available, he was a STUD yesterday.  Whaley and Wrecks didn't know what they were doing.  Marpet is 27, has a lot of good years left. Guess the front office figured Incognito was sane.

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by BearNorth

[Niagara Dude]

6 minutes ago, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

 

2 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Absolutely correct. Our oline needs to be better at pass protection as well as run blocking. People are talking about how good Brady was last night, they should be talking about how good the oline was. Brady like most Qb’s isn’t even average when his lune doesn’t perform. But he still can play when they do. Put Allen on TB last night and they score even more, maybe every drive.

It not just run blocking it having a explosive RB who hits the hole,  neither Singeltary or Moss provide that.  Beane is not going to change the line because our RB'S are both too slow,  too many other needs.  The focus should be retooling out defence and getting an explosive RB who makes big plays

[JerseyBills]

Absolutely 

Mahomes had to play how Josh has to play nearly every game and he looked awful. 110 yards after 3 qtrs! 

And I truly believe this-

 

 

[Frat-Train]

We have a Pro Bowl RB!  He just happens to be the same guy that THROWS the ball, too.  It’s not like QB designed runs are dangerous or something.  It’s not like history or statistics show it’s a bad idea to run your QB.  It’s not like a QB’s play improves or something with the addition of someone who can block or catch.  Want, want, want. There’s just no pleasing fans these days.

 

/end sarcasm

 

Draft a damn difference making RB, please!

[SirAndrew]

The Bucs ran the ball well last night, but they also had the 28th ranked rushing attack this season. I’m not convinced that Fournette and Jones are that much better than our guys. I’ve been critical of our o line, but it might just be a matter of Tampa sticking with the run that allowed it to be effective. 

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

 

Yes...I am totally on board with this now.  We don't have to run it a LOT but we have to be able to run it effectively when we need to. Them being in 2nd and short to medium because they were gaining 4-8 yards on runs was very important to keeping that offense moving and allowing Brady to keep dumping the ball off for 6 yards to the RBs to move the chains.

 

The Bills aren't going to run it a lot, but they need to do it a lot better when it comes time to actually take advantage of matchups.  They might like using the hammer a lot more but when they need a saw, they better make sure he blade is sharp

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

 

It not just run blocking it having a explosive RB who hits the hole,  neither Singeltary or Moss provide that.  Beane is not going to change the line because our RB'S are both too slow,  too many other needs.  The focus should be retooling out defence and getting an explosive RB who makes big plays

 

Fournette is available.  

[TUBSTER]

38 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Fournette is available.  

He is and he's only mid-20's right now.  Although he didn't put up good numbers this year, it was in limited carries and snaps.  He's a powerful runner and I think he's very underrated out of the backfield as a pass catcher as well (over 500 yards with Jax last year).  He's probably looking for 8-10 million after that Super Bowl performance though.  

 

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Absolutely 

Mahomes had to play how Josh has to play nearly every game and he looked awful. 110 yards after 3 qtrs! 

And I truly believe this-

 

 

 

That simply isn't true.  The KC games the OLine looked terrible but for the most part they were VERY GOOD at pass pro this year. People need to stop with this revisionist history BS and trying to act like because the line looked terrible both games against KC that it was like that all year long.  It wasn't.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

32 minutes ago, TUBSTER said:

He is and he's only mid-20's right now.  Although he didn't put up good numbers this year, it was in limited carries and snaps.  He's a powerful runner and I think he's very underrated out of the backfield as a pass catcher as well (over 500 yards with Jax last year).  He's probably looking for 8-10 million after that Super Bowl performance though.  

 

 

In this economy?  8 would be high to me.  Gordon got 2yr 16 last year (with a higher cap), after almost 1000 yards and 10 TDs the previous year.  I'd guess maybe 6.  Either way, possibly still too rich.

[TFBillsfan]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

So does a very good pass rush and defense.... I think fixing the rushing offense will be a lot easier to fix than the Bills defense. They are just missing a lot of hard pieces to find/afford upfront and their scheme leaves a lot to be desired at times. The better offenses destroy it. 

Our defense certainly needs more difference makers. We have good pieces but we don’t really have any game changers on D outside of Tre.

[ProcessAccepted]

No doubt having a solid running game makes a difference and that was visible in the game last night. But I don't think you can draw a direct comparison between the AFC Championship and Super Bowl. The application of rules around holding were night and day. I'm not saying that's why we lost but I am saying that what drew a flag in one game didn't in the other. When DBs can play more physically it's easier to keep the safeties up high. 

[SirAndrew]

7 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

No doubt having a solid running game makes a difference and that was visible in the game last night. But I don't think you can draw a direct comparison between the AFC Championship and Super Bowl. The application of rules around holding were night and day. I'm not saying that's why we lost but I am saying that what drew a flag in one game didn't in the other. When DBs can play more physically it's easier to keep the safeties up high. 

Yes, the Bucs won with defense, Brady, and a great supporting cast of receivers this year. They didn’t have a good running game this season. They were in an excellent rushing team in the Super Bowl, but one game isn’t always indicative of a team. Everything went right in the Super Bowl for the Bucs, because everything fell in place perfectly. 

[John from Riverside]

What is showed me is what knew to be true all along WAS true

 

If your whole offense is based around ONE player......eventually a good DC will find a way to shut that player down no matter HOW good they are

 

Ask yourself this

 

- When KC and their "sticky defense" (in other words.......holding defense that wasnt getting called took away our passing game.........if we could actually run the ball for first downs...I am not even talking about 200 yards rushing or whatever....I am simply talking about the ability to get first downs WITHOUT Josh doing it...that game would have looked much different.  Yes KC would have still scored points (I will be addressing this in a minute) but you take away KC's time of possession......and you force KC to have to come down and play the run......allowing Josh to throw

 

- We will NEVER beat KC unless we can put a defense on the field that gets CONSISTANT pressure without having to blitz.....you wont shut them out....but you can force some punts....the DL MUST be improved.

 

So.....improve the running game.....and improve the DL.....and lets get to the next step of the journey

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

The Bucs ran the ball well last night, but they also had the 28th ranked rushing attack this season. I’m not convinced that Fournette and Jones are that much better than our guys. I’ve been critical of our o line, but it might just be a matter of Tampa sticking with the run that allowed it to be effective. 

Well if that's the case then our o-lineman and/or RBs really blow. Or maybe Daboll just fell in love with Josh doing everything, which is pure insanity. I'm kinda glad we didn't play in that SB last night because we saw on full display how "not ready" we are.

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

That simply isn't true.  The KC games the OLine looked terrible but for the most part they were VERY GOOD at pass pro this year. People need to stop with this revisionist history BS and trying to act like because the line looked terrible both games against KC that it was like that all year long.  It wasn't.

Good post.  Our OL allowed Josh to stand tall in the pocket and shoot lasers out of his arm like the mandolorian.  More often than not, our pass protection was good to very good imo.

[Meatloaf63]

10 hours ago, Niagara Dude said:

 

It not just run blocking it having a explosive RB who hits the hole,  neither Singeltary or Moss provide that.  Beane is not going to change the line because our RB'S are both too slow,  too many other needs.  The focus should be retooling out defence and getting an explosive RB who makes big plays

Except when it mattered our line couldn’t protect Allen, and if you can’t protect your Qb you are dead in the water, no better example than last night. And honestly there are very few holes created for our running backs to run through. The line is a problem whether you admit it or not.

7 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

That simply isn't true.  The KC games the OLine looked terrible but for the most part they were VERY GOOD at pass pro this year. People need to stop with this revisionist history BS and trying to act like because the line looked terrible both games against KC that it was like that all year long.  It wasn't.

His line was not in tact last night, that was the problem for the KC offense...

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

If there was one lesson I came away with from watching this game it's how important generating consistent pressure while rushing 4 guys is. 

 

The Chiefs finished with 17 rushes for 107 yards. The Bucs had 33 rushes for 145 yards.

 

It's not like the Chiefs had a lot of garbage time rushing yards either. They were pretty effective at running the ball all night. Their offense sputtered because Mahomes was running for his life almost every play

[EasternOHBillsFan]

13 hours ago, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

 

The Chiefs had everything, but it wasn't nearly as effective.

 

WHY?

 

Unlike the Bills, their defensive front 7 were OUTSTANDING.

 

We need a massive defensive front 7 upgrade on our team. That made all the difference...

Edited February 9, 2021 by EasternOHBillsFan

[LABILLBACKER]

3 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

The Chiefs had everything, but it wasn't nearly as effective.

 

WHY?

 

Unlike the Bills, their defensive front 7 were OUTSTANDING.

 

We need a massive defensive front 7 upgrade on our team. That made all the difference...

Yup, Patrick is a whole different qb when he's harrassed. It also helped TB to have both starting tackles out for KC.  Sean and Brandon need to overhaul the front 7. And Daboll has to resuscitate our run game. 

[machine gun kelly]

19 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Fournette is available.  

As he was in July of 2020.  The Bucs were smart pick him up in two to three days this summer.  I was hoping, but didn’t predict nor did just about anyone about Moss and Singletary.

Edited February 9, 2021 by machine gun kelly

[ctk232]

14 hours ago, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

Tbf the Chiefs arguably have one of the most complete offenses in the league and it did nothing against a stout defense and, more importantly, an incredibly well-schemed gameplan and playcall. The Bucs were the more complete team, would likely be the better thread here.
 

Their offense came out and performed, no doubt - perfectly balanced attack to get at the Chiefs weaknesses on the ground and through the air with screens and TE heavy use/production. Frankly, what the Bucs left out there was not as complete an offense in terms of tangible production. It was simply what was needed to beat the KC defense. But overall, it was the Bucs defense that made the difference in the game throughout, and against one of the most complete offenses out there. 
 

All this to say, sure, you could argue upgrades needed at TE and in OL run blocking, possibly RB, but KC was the more complete team on the field and in a schemed gameplan approach in the AFCCG. We attacked their strengths on offense, and our defense was exposed. It’s hard to make these hyper-focused comparisons and translate them to another team’s context, especially within the sample of a single game. Plenty to improve on the Bills side, but these are still hard arguments to make.

Edited February 9, 2021 by ctk232

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I’ve been preaching this for years 

 

BALANCE. 

 

The ability to Pass and Run as needed. 
 

it nice to see people finally get it. 
 

 

[Meatloaf63]

5 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I’ve been preaching this for years 

 

BALANCE. 

 

The ability to Pass and Run as needed. 
 

it nice to see people finally get it. 
 

 

Some still don’t 😥

[TBBills]

21 hours ago, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

It doesn't matter as much as one would think. Now having the correct Refs for the game matter more now.

 

[SoCal Deek]

The Bills finished 13-3 and were steamrolling teams down the stretch. They’re not as far away as you’d be lead to believe by reading these posts. (In fact, had a couple of things happened differently at the end of the Cleveland/KC game the Bills would’ve been playing this past Sunday.) Fortify the pass rush, improve the running game. They’re nowhere near a rebuilding mode. 

[Doc]

When a team holds another team to 9 points, the argument is that the defense...

[Doc]

 

But that Bucs offense was stacked.  You think Rodgers wouldn't have loved those players?

[TUBSTER]

On 2/8/2021 at 11:19 AM, dneveu said:

 

In this economy?  8 would be high to me.  Gordon got 2yr 16 last year (with a higher cap), after almost 1000 yards and 10 TDs the previous year.  I'd guess maybe 6.  Either way, possibly still too rich.

Fair point, I was just going off Spotrac for those numbers.  

[NewEra]

18 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

As he was in July of 2020.  The Bucs were smart pick him up in two to three days this summer.  I was hoping, but didn’t predict nor did just about anyone about Moss and Singletary.

Yeah I was hoping for to land him too but figured he’d go to a bigger contender.  Allen had yet to unleash his new self on the world

[Nextmanup]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:48 AM, Frat-Train said:

We have a Pro Bowl RB!  He just happens to be the same guy that THROWS the ball, too.  It’s not like QB designed runs are dangerous or something.  It’s not like history or statistics show it’s a bad idea to run your QB.  It’s not like a QB’s play improves or something with the addition of someone who can block or catch.  Want, want, want. There’s just no pleasing fans these days.

 

/end sarcasm

 

Draft a damn difference making RB, please!

Good God know!  Pick one up on waivers; pick up someone else's cut, steal one from a practice squad...do anything but waste draft assets on one!

 

They are everywhere and they are all about the same.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

On 2/8/2021 at 9:37 PM, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

 

 

It's one way to win. Not the only way.

 

Out of pass offense, pass defense, run offense and run defense, run offense is the least important phase. 

 

Still, there are times when a bit of balance absolutely helps. But it doesn't need to be feared. If it's simply effective, that's totally fine. 

 

And it's worth pointing out that this year Tampa was 29th in run yards, far behind the Bills, and 25th in YPC, again behind the Bills. Fournette averaged 3.8 YPC this year, behind Singletary and Moss.

 

Nobody "feared" Tampa's run game any more than ours.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

On 2/8/2021 at 11:40 PM, ScottLaw said:

So does a very good pass rush and defense.... I think fixing the rushing offense will be a lot easier to fix than the Bills defense. They are just missing a lot of hard pieces to find/afford upfront and their scheme leaves a lot to be desired at times. The better offenses destroy it. 

 

 

Oh, puh-leeze.

 

That's ridiculous. The last half of the season our D was terrific. Not quite as good as last year, but very very good. As for "the better offenses destroy it," that's wrong on the face of it. Seattle was ripping up the league on offense till the Bills absolutely stonewalled them, and at the same time provided a blueprint for the rest of the league on how to do that. They handled the Cards very well till they got lucky at the end, the Chargers, and they held teh Colts to 24 and the Ravens to 3

 

So, that contention is balderdash.

 

The Bills D needs a pass rusher, and certainly this year they needed beef in the middle, but Lotulelei will provide a lot of that next year. They were very good. They do need to get better, but they were very good.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/8/2021 at 6:48 AM, Frat-Train said:

Draft a damn difference making RB, please!

 

Unless we improve the run blocking on OL somehow, RB won't be able to make a difference

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

“They held the Colts to 24” didn’t the Colts punt twice in that game? 😅

 

It wasn’t all that different from the Chiefs game. Completely outclassed defensively. They had no answers as the Colts offensive line dominated the Bills upfront.....except Rivers did what Rivers always does. Comes up short. Luckily Josh Allen was incredible otherwise the Bills are looking at another first round exit. 

 

Cardinals faded down the stretch and weren’t all that great an offense when it was all said and done. 
 

I’d say they were good against Seattle, very good against Baltimore, very bad against the Colts and awful against the Chiefs in the biggest game of the year. 
 

We have very different definitions of “terrific”. 

 

 

Sorry, I said "They held the Colts to 24," correct?

 

Could you point out where that is wrong?

 

No, didn't think so.

 

If they'd been completely outclassed, the Colts would have scored about 35 or 40 points. They didn't. 

 

Oh, and I love how you point to the Colts punting only twice ,,, and remearkably forget the two drives where the Bills D held them on downs, stopping them on 4th down in the first half and 4th down and 11 in the second half, when the Colts got the ball back with 2:30 and the Bills forced them into a 13 play time-drainer of a drive allowing no big plays and strangling them slowly when all they needed was a field goal.

 

So, yes, they held the Colts to 24 and the Colts were a fine offense this year.

 

And as I pointed out (and yet you strangely didn't address in your post ... who could figure that one?) your contention that "the better offenses destroyed it" was utterly and obviously wrong. That was far from the only good defense they played well against. As I said:

 

 

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

That's ridiculous. The last half of the season our D was terrific. Not quite as good as last year, but very very good. As for "the better offenses destroy it," that's wrong on the face of it. Seattle was ripping up the league on offense till the Bills absolutely stonewalled them, and at the same time provided a blueprint for the rest of the league on how to do that. They handled the Cards very well till they got lucky at the end, the Chargers, and they held teh Colts to 24 and the Ravens to 3

 

...

 

The Bills D needs a pass rusher, and certainly this year they needed beef in the middle, but Lotulelei will provide a lot of that next year. They were very good. They do need to get better, but they were very good.

 

Arguing that the Bills D wasn't very good the last half of the year shows only shows confirmation bias, a poor opinion petrified, polished and worshipped.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Thurman#1

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, puh-leeze.

 

That's ridiculous. The last half of the season our D was terrific. Not quite as good as last year, but very very good. As for "the better offenses destroy it," that's wrong on the face of it. Seattle was ripping up the league on offense till the Bills absolutely stonewalled them, and at the same time provided a blueprint for the rest of the league on how to do that. They handled the Cards very well till they got lucky at the end, the Chargers, and they held teh Colts to 24 and the Ravens to 3

 

So, that contention is balderdash.

 

The Bills D needs a pass rusher, and certainly this year they needed beef in the middle, but Lotulelei will provide a lot of that next year. They were very good. They do need to get better, but they were very good.

Our D did rally after the Seattle game but it was hardly the top 5 defense we saw the previous 2 years. Addison, Murphy, Jefferson and Butler were useless.  And Jerry's age and uncanny ability to never get a holding call makes him expendable. I agree Star will help but next year but it will be his last. We'll need to draft or sign a 1tech and a couple pass rushers. Tampa's front 4 got to Patrick. Ours didn't. End of discussion. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by LABILLBACKER

[newcam2012]

On 2/8/2021 at 4:37 AM, FieldGeneral said:

Did anyone see the game yesterday and still doubt the need for a running game? TB forced KC into having to pass every down since they couldn't/didn't run the ball. When KC needed to make a stop, TB would get chunks of yardage on runs. This matters. You can't put all the pressure on one player to be perfect on every down. KC looked like what we looked like 2 weeks ago. Yes there were more factors involved, but when you have zero run game, you are at a disadvantage. Hopefully Beane addresses the running game in the draft because nobody fears it as it is now. 

I agree. You have to have a decent run game by not a great one. One that keeps the defense honest. Without that you become too easy to defend. KC was able to tee off on a mobile Allen. Yet, they generated little pass rush on Brady who can't move. 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Our D did rally after the Seattle game but it was hardly the top 5 defense we saw the previous 2 years. Addison, Murphy, Jefferson and Butler were useless.  And Jerry's age and uncanny ability to never get a holding call makes him expendable. I agree Star will help but next year but it will be his last. We'll need to draft or sign a 1tech and a couple pass rushers. Tampa's front 4 got to Patrick. Ours didn't. End of discussion. 

 

 

"Useless" is wild exaggeration. No, they were not useless. It's fair enough to say that they didn't play at the level they'd hoped, though. How much of that was down to the lack of beef after Lotulelei opted out? And how much early in the season due to the fact that they were new and there was no offseason?

 

Jerry Hughes is anything but expendable. He had a very good season.

 

There's no reason whatsoever to think this will be Star's last season. He could very very easily last another two after that, and even that's assuming they don't extend him at that point. No way to know, really. Could go either way depending on many factors.

 

Yes, we certainly need a pass rusher, no question.

 

Fair enough that they weren't the top 5 D we'd seen the past couple of years. The last half of the season they were pretty close, but yeah, not quite there.

 

10 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I agree. You have to have a decent run game by not a great one. One that keeps the defense honest. Without that you become too easy to defend. KC was able to tee off on a mobile Allen. Yet, they generated little pass rush on Brady who can't move. 

 

 

I'd agree with most of this. But I think part of the reason KC couldn't get to Brady was that his inclination was to throw quickly, inside the design of the play, where Allen's natural bent is to be tempted to extend the play and look longer.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Thurman#1