The Effect of the Bills on Dan Marino’s Postseason Success

[JohnNord]

I started comparing QB stats and came across Dan Marino.  I’d say he sort of had an interesting career stat wise - tremendous success early in his career, and NFL record for TD passes, and a Super Bowl appearance. 
 

For the rest of his career he put up very great numbers (though never as good as his first few seasons) but he never reached another Super Bowl.  Not only that but he only reached an AFC Championship Game one other time in 1993.  
 

All of this, yet Marino is still regarded as one of the best QB’s of all time and has the stats to make the argument.  Yet he had very limited success in terms of sustained post season success.  Miami was always a 10 or 11 win team under Marino, who occasionally won a Wildcard game, but barely got further than that.   
 

While I only followed his career occasionally, Im wondering why Marino didn’t achieve more success?  Was he a QB that just didn’t deliver in big games when he needed to?  Was Don Shula living on his past laurels from the 1970’s?  Or did the Miami organization not put enough talent around him?  

I also wonder if the Bills success during his prime derailed his chances to succeed (much like the Patriots of the past 20 years or so).  From what I can remember, every time it mattered the Bills and Jim Kelly beat Dan Marino - including 3 times in the playoffs.  
 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by JohnNord

[Chandler#81]

<yawn>

‘Ya live by the pass...     ‘

[cwchze]

Let’s put it this way. We owned them during the Kelly years and there was nothing they could do

[Beast]

The same reason Dan Fouts didn't.

[Don Otreply]

This happens in many sports, if you follow pro cycling, there was a guy named Eddy Merckx, he averaged winning every fourth or fifth race he started for a decade, not counting the bunches of top three finishes,  There were a bunch of very talented riders during that time that would have had his accolades had he not been there... just the way it goes in the world of sports when a better team or athlete is present. 

[LeviF]

I get flamed for this but I’ll say it again: switch out Jim Kelly with Dan Marino and the Bills win at least 5 Super Bowls in his career. With the roster the Bills had there was no excuse for not winning a championship. Those Dolphins teams had no defense and, for the most part, burger flippers at the skill positions on offense. 

[Bob in STL]

16 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I started comparing QB stats and came across Dan Marino.  I’d say he sort of had an interesting career stat wise - tremendous success early in his career, and NFL record for TD passes, and a Super Bowl appearance. 
 

For the rest of his career he put up very great numbers (though never as good as his first few seasons) but he never reached another Super Bowl.  Not only that but he only reached an AFC Championship Game one other time in 1993.  
 

All of this, yet Marino is still regarded as one of the best QB’s of all time and has the stats to make the argument.  Yet he had very limited success in terms of sustained post season success.  Miami was always a 10 or 11 win team under Marino, who occasionally won a Wildcard game, but barely got further than that.   
 

While I only followed his career occasionally, Im wondering why Marino didn’t achieve more success?  Was he a QB that just didn’t deliver in big games when he needed to?  Was Don Shula living on his past laurels from the 1970’s?  Or did the Miami organization not put enough talent around him?  

I also wonder if the Bills success during his prime derailed his chances to succeed (much like the Patriots of the past 20 years or so).  From what I can remember, every time it mattered the Bills and Jim Kelly beat Dan Marino - including 3 times in the playoffs.  
 

 

No need to wonder.  The Bills absolutely derailed Marino’s career and Miami’s chances at another Super Bowl.  The 90’s Bills were the better team and they were in Miami’s head all the time.  
 

[EersN'Bills]

I live in Fort Lauderdale and Dolphins fans swear up and down that if Marino had the roster the Bills had, the Phins go to multiple Super Bowls like the Bills did.

 

Marino never had a Thurman Thomas to hand the ball off to. For awhile they had Bernie Parmalee who they got from UPS I think.

 

And even though the Bills defense was average during that time, it was still better than the Phins. No Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Darryl Talley etc. Phins fans also say if their defense was at the caliber it was in the late 90s/early 00s (under JJ and Wanny), they at the very least prevent the Bills from going to four straight.

 

Sometimes it's just roster talent. Would Marino have won a SB with the Bills? We'll never know.

[prissythecat]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

No need to wonder.  The Bills absolutely derailed Marino’s career and Miami’s chances at another Super Bowl.  The 90’s Bills were the better team and they were in Miami’s head all the time.  
 

 

This.  QBs don't do it all by themselves.  Marino was probably a better pure passer than Kelly.  But his supporting cast wasn't very good.

[Your Brown Eye]

13 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

I get flamed for this but I’ll say it again: switch out Jim Kelly with Dan Marino and the Bills win at least 5 Super Bowls in his career. With the roster the Bills had there was no excuse for not winning a championship. Those Dolphins teams had no defense and, for the most part, burger flippers at the skill positions on offense. 

 

Actually from 1990-1999, the Dolphins overall defense was statistically ranked higher than the Bills 6 out of the 10 years. 

[QB Bills]

25 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

I get flamed for this but I’ll say it again: switch out Jim Kelly with Dan Marino and the Bills win at least 5 Super Bowls in his career. With the roster the Bills had there was no excuse for not winning a championship. Those Dolphins teams had no defense and, for the most part, burger flippers at the skill positions on offense. 

Totally agree. But Marino was also apparently quite vocal about suppressing the run game. He either thought that passing was the best way to win or he just wanted to pad his stats. 

[Neo]

Great thrower.

[Greybeard]

4 minutes ago, Neo said:

Great thrower.

     It was his release that made him a pain in the *** to defend.  I can't count the number of times I thought he would get sacked and did not.

 

     Sport is funny.  Maybe if he was a Bill, the Bills would not have gone to any Super Bowls.  It comes down to performing when you have to, not running up a bunch of stats.

[EersN'Bills]

14 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

 

Actually from 1990-1999, the Dolphins overall defense was statistically ranked higher than the Bills 6 out of the 10 years. 

 

Most of that was when Jimmy got there and they got Zach Thomas, Jason Taylor, Trace Armstrong, Tim Bowens, Sam Madison, Brock Marion, Patrick Surtain etc.

 

Even though the Bills defense was ranked #1 in 99, Miami wasn't too far behind that year IIRC. The Dolphins defense was TERRIBLE Shula's last few years.

Edited November 29, 2020 by EersN'Bills

[Bferra13]

11 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

 

Actually from 1990-1999, the Dolphins overall defense was statistically ranked higher than the Bills 6 out of the 10 years. 

 

Thats a good stat. I was super young at the time, but maybe nostalgia has me overrating those 90s Bills' D'S. You think of the studs and even solid role players like Nate Odomes and Phil Hansen I think they underschieved quite a bit.

[Big Turk]

54 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I started comparing QB stats and came across Dan Marino.  I’d say he sort of had an interesting career stat wise - tremendous success early in his career, and NFL record for TD passes, and a Super Bowl appearance. 
 

For the rest of his career he put up very great numbers (though never as good as his first few seasons) but he never reached another Super Bowl.  Not only that but he only reached an AFC Championship Game one other time in 1993.  
 

All of this, yet Marino is still regarded as one of the best QB’s of all time and has the stats to make the argument.  Yet he had very limited success in terms of sustained post season success.  Miami was always a 10 or 11 win team under Marino, who occasionally won a Wildcard game, but barely got further than that.   
 

While I only followed his career occasionally, Im wondering why Marino didn’t achieve more success?  Was he a QB that just didn’t deliver in big games when he needed to?  Was Don Shula living on his past laurels from the 1970’s?  Or did the Miami organization not put enough talent around him?  

I also wonder if the Bills success during his prime derailed his chances to succeed (much like the Patriots of the past 20 years or so).  From what I can remember, every time it mattered the Bills and Jim Kelly beat Dan Marino - including 3 times in the playoffs.  
 

 

 

They had no running game at all...so late in games when they needed to burn clock and run the ball they couldn't. That puts a lot of stress on the QB.

 

In some ways they were designed to attack weaknesses of other teams being built to defend the run so much during that era and take advantage of matchups but in other ways they weren't good enough to do that as well as they could have been. They had no real TE threat.

 

And to answer your question, a large part was the Bills were simply a better team top to bottom than the Dolphins were. More HOF caliber players and more talent.

 

[Matt_In_NH]

My opinion of the Dolphins during that time is that Shula gave Marino too much control and he would constantly check out of plays to passes.   It worked enough and he had enough cache that he was able to get away with it.  But when it came to games against good opponents like the Bills it did not work.  So many games against the Bills ended up with 4th quarter INT's thrown by Marino when trying to catch up.   The Dolphins often tried to focus more on the run game but Marino constantly derailed it.  I remember an interview when he was asked about it and said something like "running the ball is nice, we can do that once we are up by a couple touchdowns".   He was his own worst enemy....this was an era you truly needed to run and stop the run.

Edited November 29, 2020 by mattynh

[BuffaloRebound]

5 minutes ago, mattynh said:

My opinion of the Dolphins during that time is that Shula gave Marino too much control and he would constantly check out of plays to passes.   It worked enough and he had enough cache that he was able to get away with it.  But when it came to games against good opponents like the Bills it did not work.  So many games against the Bills ended up with 4th quarter INT's thrown by Marino when trying to catch up.   The Dolphins often tried to focus more on the run game but Marino constantly derailed it.  I remember an interview when he was asked about it and said something like "running the ball is nice, we can do that once we are up by a couple touchdowns".   He was his own worst enemy....this was an era you truly needed to run and stop the run.

This. 
Seemed like Marino was more than happy to rack up stats and do isotoner commercials.  Bills were the tougher more blue collar team.  

[PrimeTime101]

We were in there heads all the time, I will  never forget cox running off the field with pointing his middle finger's at us. We messed  that team up the way NE  messed us up

[Beast]

1 hour ago, LeviF91 said:

I get flamed for this but I’ll say it again: switch out Jim Kelly with Dan Marino and the Bills win at least 5 Super Bowls in his career. With the roster the Bills had there was no excuse for not winning a championship. Those Dolphins teams had no defense and, for the most part, burger flippers at the skill positions on offense. 

 

Duper, Clayton and Jensen were "burger flippers"?

 

OK

 

Jim Kelly started punching Dan Marino's ticket in 1987....before Thurman, Lofton, Beebe and others were on the Bills roster.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Beast

[LeviF]

4 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

Duper, Clayton and Jensen were "burger flippers"?

 

OK

lmao you might get Duper if I’m feeling generous but yeah those dudes were JAGs with the good fortune to have Dan Marino on the other end of the throw. 
 

Wasn't Jensen just a gourmet Steve Tasker? I suppose you’re in love with Taysom Hill too haha

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

59 minutes ago, EersN'Bills said:

Marino never had a Thurman Thomas to hand the ball off to. For awhile they had Bernie Parmalee who they got from UPS I think.

University of Pismo State?

[Beast]

16 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

lmao you might get Duper if I’m feeling generous but yeah those dudes were JAGs with the good fortune to have Dan Marino on the other end of the throw. 
 

Wasn't Jensen just a gourmet Steve Tasker? I suppose you’re in love with Taysom Hill too haha

 

Whether you are feeling generous or not, your statement that Marino had nobody is just that....an inaccurate statement.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Beast

[Buffalo Junction]

27 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

They had no running game at all...so late in games when they needed to burn clock and run the ball they couldn't. That puts a lot of stress on the QB.

 

In some ways they were designed to attack weaknesses of other teams being built to defend the run so much during that era and take advantage of matchups but in other ways they weren't good enough to do that as well as they could have been. They had no real TE threat.

 

And to answer your question, a large part was the Bills were simply a better team top to bottom than the Dolphins were. More HOF caliber players and more talent.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Tremaine Edmunds father go to the probowl twice in the late 80’s early 90’s as a dolphin?

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, EersN'Bills said:

Marino never had a Thurman Thomas to hand the ball off to. For awhile they had Bernie Parmalee who they got from UPS I think.

 

Marino was terrible at faking the handoff and would get his RBs demolished.

When I would watch games at bar I would say when it was fake so many times others at bar would ask and I would say "Fake" before he would do it.

He had tells opposing teams must have been seeing.

 

 

He did though very well in advertising.  In the year he broke his leg he got multiple opportunities for commercials and those chances sustained him for many years.

 

Squish the Phish!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I recall too often it seemed he'd give up on the run game when it was working.  Recall the 3rd Super Bowl year, we played Miami in Conference Championship game.  Miami was ahead early and running the ball well.  Think we went up like 4 points, still within one TD range, that was it after that mostly all passing and think we had 2 to 3 ints.  Too often that was his MOA, going to win with his arm.  Probably in todays game, he'd be alot more successful with that mentality.

[Beast]

6 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I recall too often it seemed he'd give up on the run game when it was working.  Recall the 3rd Super Bowl year, we played Miami in Conference Championship game.  Miami was ahead early and running the ball well.  Think we went up like 4 points, still within one TD range, that was it after that mostly all passing and think we had 2 to 3 ints.  Too often that was his MOA, going to win with his arm.  Probably in todays game, he'd be alot more successful with that mentality.

 

Ed, I think you may have that game confused with another.

 

The Bills were never behind in that game and Miami only had 33 yards rushing the whole game.

[Matt_In_NH]

Marino would be awesome in today’s game. 

[Punching Bag]

Just now, mattynh said:

Marino would be awesome in today’s game. 

 

We would be a T*m Br*dy - *whine* Zebra penalize him. He hit me although I was moving in his direction when I was throwing the ball. *whine*

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

Ed, I think you may have that game confused with another.

 

The Bills were never behind in that game and Miami only had 33 yards rushing the whole game.

 

Maybe was a different Miami game, but do recall Marino always giving up on the running game in an era when running was the big thing for success.

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, Your Brown Eye said:

 

Actually from 1990-1999, the Dolphins overall defense was statistically ranked higher than the Bills 6 out of the 10 years. 

I looked at 90 thru 93, the super bowl years, and the two defenses were close to even every year except 93 when the Bills defense was much better.  
 

In this period the Bills defense may have had a disadvantage with the Bills running the no huddle, a case could be made that it hurt them in total yardage allowed even though they were pretty strong on points allowed.  
 

The Bills biggest advantages over Miami were Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.  To HOF players that played big against them.  

[4_kidd_4]

Fresh stuff.

[The Jokeman]

2 hours ago, LeviF91 said:

I get flamed for this but I’ll say it again: switch out Jim Kelly with Dan Marino and the Bills win at least 5 Super Bowls in his career. With the roster the Bills had there was no excuse for not winning a championship. Those Dolphins teams had no defense and, for the most part, burger flippers at the skill positions on offense. 

The problem with this line of thought had we drafted and signed Marino in 1983 we'd likely have more success in the following years and not be in place to draft Bruce or likely not nabbed Reich in the same draft etc. Kelly's bolting allowed us to get more parts of those squads and allow him to develop some. That said I agree Dan was a better QB than Kelly and if roster were identical minus QBs the Bills with Marino are a better squad. I could see us easily beating the Giants in XXV with Dan instead of Jim.

1 hour ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Tremaine Edmunds father go to the probowl twice in the late 80’s early 90’s as a dolphin?

Yes, Ferrell Edmunds made the Pro Bowl with Miami in 1989 and 1990. Toss in Keith Jackson spent some time in Miami.

Edited November 29, 2020 by The Jokeman

[dma0034]

If the same Dolphins and Bills teams played today the Dolphins probably win half or slightly more. Back then it was harder to throw the ball and rules changed to help that. Marino today would be in the conversation with Mahomes for best QB. Fortunately for the Bills he played before the rule changes and when a rushing attack was needed to win in January.

 

Edit: For reference. Elway threw one more TD than Int for his first 10 years in the league. Meanwhile Marino was lighting it up.

Edited November 29, 2020 by dma0034

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Marino is a truly great QB and better than Kelly. No one outside of Buffalo would argue that.  Bills were just a better team than Miami primarily because of Thurman Thomas and Bruce Smith.  

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Tremaine Edmunds father go to the probowl twice in the late 80’s early 90’s as a dolphin?

 

He did in 1989 and 1990...but does 31 catches for 400 yards scare anyone?

[loyal2dagame]

I think the Dolphins hurt themselves without knowing it.  Marino made an immediate impact in that team's record after getting drafted causing them to settle for mid to late picks in every draft round. 

The Bills continued to struggle with Kelly going to the USFL and kept a better draft position which in turn helped Polian to stack the team. 

I don't think Marino had the personality to make it through the bickering bills years and the team may have imploded. 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

He did in 1989 and 1990...but does 31 catches for 400 yards scare anyone?

Context matters.  Back then 60% completion was excellent for a QB.  Now it’s expected 

Edited November 29, 2020 by JohnNord

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

He did in 1989 and 1990...but does 31 catches for 400 yards scare anyone?

Nope. Kellen Winslow aside, TE was a very different position before the late 90’s though. If those stats get a TE to the probowl that says something about how the position has evolved. 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Nope. Kellen Winslow aside, TE was a very different position before the late 90’s though. If those stats get a TE to the probowl that says something about how the position has evolved. 

 

Actually his best season was his 1988 rookie year where he got 575 yards but no pro bowl that year...the next 2 he made the pro bowl with around 400 yards each season(one was in the 380s and the other maybe like 440s)

 

Then he basically did nothing the rest of his career...

Edited November 29, 2020 by matter2003