Decline offsetting penalty during Cards game?

[Jobot]

I couldn't find the rule on the google engine... but couldn't we have declined the cardinal Offside portion of the offsetting penalty call yesterday? That way we would have just taken the 'already first down' with a 10-yard penalty to still make it a 1st in 10?

I swear I've seen Belichick do this before.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

ummm  off setting ...  both sides were wrong.  No play was made

 

there is nothing to "decline"  unless you wanted one ref or the other to rescind his complaint.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I mean the ref always says "by rule the penalties offset." I've never looked it up but that's what they say. So I'm guessing it's a rule that you can't. 

[qwksilver]

We need one of our social media experts to ask one of the Media refs (ala Dean Blandino or someone like him) 

[BuffalOhio]

We get the first down if Knox doesn't block in the back.  Liked him last year.  This year - not so much ...

 

Next play - interception.

[nucci]

somewhat related....how come when there are multiple penalties on one team only one can be accepted....if the defense holds and goes Offside, both should be applied.

[All_Pro_Bills]

This was the Knox call downfield?  He seems to generate at least one holding/illegal block call every game.  This penalty really hurt because it was unnecessary and inconsequential to the play.  It was a big chunk play that got called back.  He's has to start playing smarter and eliminate these drive killers.  

Edited November 16, 2020 by All_Pro_Bills

[Big Turk]

13 minutes ago, Jobot said:

I couldn't find the rule on the google engine... but couldn't we have declined the cardinal Offside portion of the offsetting penalty call yesterday? That way we would have just taken the 'already first down' with a 10-yard penalty to still make it a 1st in 10?

I swear I've seen Belichick do this before.

 

Huh? Offsetting means the play never happened.

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This was the Knox call downfield?  He seems to generate at least one holding/illegal block call every game.  This penalty really hurt because it was unnecessary and inconsequential to the play.  It was a big chunk play that got called back.  He's has to start playing smarter and eliminate these drive killers.  

Well, he does have Lee Smith as a mentor. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

somewhat related....how come when there are multiple penalties on one team only one can be accepted....if the defense holds and goes Offside, both should be applied.

 

This is the one that really burns me, take the opposite;

 

The defense goes Offside so the O-line ends up holding or the QB is now under duress so he intentional grounds.  Could argue neither of those offensive penalties would have occurred if the defense wasn't Offside to start with.  But it's off-setting.

 

I'd argue enforce the first penalty but admittedly that is often hard to tell which one occurred first.

[Rochesterfan]

13 minutes ago, Jobot said:

I couldn't find the rule on the google engine... but couldn't we have declined the cardinal Offside portion of the offsetting penalty call yesterday? That way we would have just taken the 'already first down' with a 10-yard penalty to still make it a 1st in 10?

I swear I've seen Belichick do this before.

 

I don’t get what you think would have happened.  It would have been a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul so if we could have declined the penalty- the result would have been 2 and 20 rather than 2nd and 10. 
 

We would not have gotten the first down - nor the yardage that Singletary got because the questionable block occurred at the site of the catch.

 

We would have lost more yardage and not have gotten the first down - so the next play would have been worse.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

25 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t get what you think would have happened.  It would have been a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul so if we could have declined the penalty- the result would have been 2 and 20 rather than 2nd and 10. 
 

We would not have gotten the first down - nor the yardage that Singletary got because the questionable block occurred at the site of the catch.

 

We would have lost more yardage and not have gotten the first down - so the next play would have been worse.

Not true. The block in the back occurred far downfield not at the LOS. It would have been ten yards from the spot of the foul.. So the OPs question is valid. If they could have declined the penalty and taken the result of the play and the penalty, they may have netted a few yards. They would have lost the down though too. 

I don't know if it is legal to decline offsetting penalties in that situation but it is an interesting question. 

[JoPoy88]

55 minutes ago, Jobot said:

I couldn't find the rule on the google engine... but couldn't we have declined the cardinal Offside portion of the offsetting penalty call yesterday? That way we would have just taken the 'already first down' with a 10-yard penalty to still make it a 1st in 10?

I swear I've seen Belichick do this before.

Not the way offsetting penalties work. But the Bills can and do decline a specific penalty on the opposing team when they commit more than one penalty on a single down, and just accept the most beneficial one (I believe this did happen once yesterday.)

[DrDawkinstein]

I was kinda confused on this too.

 

Defense jumps, it's a "free play". If Josh throws an INT there, they wipe it out like it never happened and it's Bills' ball, 2nd and 5.

 

So if the offside penalty is enforced, nothing that happened after it counts, and there should be no offsetting penalty.

Or if we decline the offside, then the block in the back counts, spot foul, 1st and 20.

 

Either way, I'm done with Knox. The meathead makes more negative plays than positive.

[MAJBobby]

I absolutely HATE offsetting penalties.  It is Stupid.

 

The False Start is a "free play"  All bad after should be able to be wiped away with the acceptance of the penalty, similar to a Pick.  Offsetting penalties are DUMB.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

44 minutes ago, BuffalOhio said:

We get the first down if Knox doesn't block in the back.  Liked him last year.  This year - not so much ...

 

Next play - interception.

I'm glad you mentioned the interception on the very next play.   

 

There were two plays that annoyed me more than the Hail Mary.  And both were self-inflicted gunshots by the Bills.  I think the outcome of these two consecutive drives cost them the game.

1.  The 12 yards punt - this resulted in a 1st and 10 from the Bills 30 for Arz and they kicked a FG to make it 23-19.

2. The Knox penalty which negated a 21 yard gain to the ARZ 40.  Next play interception and the Cards go 56 yards for the go-ahead TD to make it 23-26.

 

Take those two screw-ups away is maybe its 23-16 end-of-Q3.  Hypothetically if the Bills go down and score absent that Knox penalty it could have been 30-16 end-of-Q3.  In any case these screw-ups shifted the momentum for about 14-15 minutes of the 2nd half. 

[MAJBobby]

Just Enforce the penalties as they come.  

 

Example a 10 yard hold can offset a 50 yard DPI.  That is freaking STUPID.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

I couldn't find the rule on the google engine... but couldn't we have declined the cardinal Offside portion of the offsetting penalty call yesterday? That way we would have just taken the 'already first down' with a 10-yard penalty to still make it a 1st in 10?

I swear I've seen Belichick do this before.

 

Someone else raised this yesterday in a thread, and it seems like a brilliant idea.

 

I don't know the rules, but this makes a lot of sense-- the refs can't enforce off-setting penalties if one is declined, I would think. 

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

From what appears to be an official nfl website, at:

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/17_2013_Penalty_Enforcement.pdf

 

"Section 5 Fouls by Both Teams (Double Fouls)

 

Article 1:Double Foul Without Change of Possession. If there is a Double Foul (3-12-2-c) during a down in which there is not a change of possession, the penalties are offset, and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it is a scrimmage down, the number of the next down and the line to gain is the same as for the down in which the fouls occurred."

 

Personally, I think the rule should be changed to allow a team to decline a penalty in this situation, but  that  does not appear to  currently be an option.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, BuffalOhio said:

We get the first down if Knox doesn't block in the back.  Liked him last year.  This year - not so much ...

 

Next play - interception.

 I really think that play was the turning point in the whole game. I'm so sick and tired of waiting for Dawson Knox to ever be good. Time to draft another te next year...

[Ramza86]

Nah because the play ran, everything else is live. 

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

I absolutely HATE offsetting penalties.  It is Stupid.

 

The False Start is a "free play"  All bad after should be able to be wiped away with the acceptance of the penalty, similar to a Pick.  Offsetting penalties are DUMB.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Just Enforce the penalties as they come.  

 

Example a 10 yard hold can offset a 50 yard DPI.  That is freaking STUPID.

 

Agreed with almost all of this, except now you are bringing up a deeper discussion (tangent?) that DPI shouldnt be a spot foul, but rather just a 10yd penalty and automatic 1st down like in College. Which I do prefer.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Agreed with almost all of this, except now you are bringing up a deeper discussion (tangent?) that DPI shouldnt be a spot foul, but rather just a 10yd penalty and automatic 1st down like in College. Which I do prefer.

I am fine with the 10 yard penalty on DPI as well.  I also think that DPI or Defensive holding should be add on calls too.  Example Diggs play fought through a mugging from Peterson, caught the ball and not the "Hold" gets declined.  It should be tacked on.  No different than a hold that occurs on the OL.

 

There needs to be more common sense and an overhaul of some of the rule book.  But the biggest complaint I have and will always have with NFL Officials is the lack of consistency from crew to crew, heck even the same Crew doesn't call the game consistent in game.  You can be "over officious Jerks" - Marv, but be freaking consistent

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

I am fine with the 10 yard penalty on DPI as well.  I also think that DPI or Defensive holding should be add on calls too.  Example Diggs play fought through a mugging from Peterson, caught the ball and not the "Hold" gets declined.  It should be tacked on.  No different than a hold that occurs on the OL.

 

There needs to be more common sense and an overhaul of some of the rule book.  But the biggest complaint I have and will always have with NFL Officials is the lack of consistency from crew to crew, heck even the same Crew doesn't call the game consistent in game.  You can be "over officious Jerks" - Marv, but be freaking consistent

 

Agreed, and now you've taken it to my favorite tangent discussion: the Refs should be full time NFL employees and work on their craft year-round.

[dlonce]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This was the Knox call downfield?  He seems to generate at least one holding/illegal block call every game.  This penalty really hurt because it was unnecessary and inconsequential to the play.  It was a big chunk play that got called back.  He's has to start playing smarter and eliminate these drive killers.  

 

He seems to have a penalty per game.

 

He gets them because he’s not a very good blocker and gets out of position easily. Mr. Whiff.

He seems to get called on important plays. It might be a mental thing, not too certain.

 

In general, if you watch any of our TEs block, notably on the LOS, you will see a lot of missed blocking assignments.

An upgrade next year would be welcomed.

 

Off topic, this is a great week for a bye.

[HardyBoy]

15 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Just Enforce the penalties as they come.  

 

Example a 10 yard hold can offset a 50 yard DPI.  That is freaking STUPID.

 

In college I'm prerry sure they won't offset if one is a personal foul (randomly saw that last week for the first time). I'm not sure on the exact specifics, but it was like a ticky tac offense penalty and a roughing the passer or something along those lines and they got the yards for roughing.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Agreed, and now you've taken it to my favorite tangent discussion: the Refs should be full time NFL employees and work on their craft year-round.

Agreed.  And also get rid of or fix replay.  If you are going to have replay it needs to actually be completely fixed and overhauled as well.  Moving it to NY has DONE nothing to fix that process.

[HardyBoy]

That late hit call on Singletary was super interesting that since it was after the play they didn't walk off yards, but took the down. Surprised me because I thought they were gonna call a crack back there and not a late hit, but dude did a pretty convincing Rodman flop.

 

Random, but on Allen's td, anyone notice Williams box out the defender instead of hitting him, which would have been a craxk back even if very little contact if the lineman sold it well.

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I don’t get what you think would have happened.  It would have been a 10 yard penalty from the spot of the foul so if we could have declined the penalty- the result would have been 2 and 20 rather than 2nd and 10. 
 

We would not have gotten the first down - nor the yardage that Singletary got because the questionable block occurred at the site of the catch.

 

We would have lost more yardage and not have gotten the first down - so the next play would have been worse.

The Knox block happened like 20 yards down field after Singletary caught it and ran. 

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Agreed with almost all of this, except now you are bringing up a deeper discussion (tangent?) that DPI shouldnt be a spot foul, but rather just a 10yd penalty and automatic 1st down like in College. Which I do prefer.

If it was just a 10 or 15 yard penalty and I knew I was giving up a long td I would interfere everytime. 

6 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

That late hit call on Singletary was super interesting that since it was after the play they didn't walk off yards, but took the down. Surprised me because I thought they were gonna call a crack back there and not a late hit, but dude did a pretty convincing Rodman flop.

 

Random, but on Allen's td, anyone notice Williams box out the defender instead of hitting him, which would have been a craxk back even if very little contact if the lineman sold it well.

Late hit was a terrible call and should have been a crack back. The singletary already started the block when allen threw it at his feet.

 

Referees have been getting worse by the week. I didn’t think it was possible but I wouldn’t doubt they have bets amongst themselves to see who can have the worst calls possible. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

somewhat related....how come when there are multiple penalties on one team only one can be accepted....if the defense holds and goes Offside, both should be applied.

 

LOL  Add them both up..  

 

as long its against the other team   

 

[DrDawkinstein]

30 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

 

If it was just a 10 or 15 yard penalty and I knew I was giving up a long td I would interfere everytime. 

 

 

That already happens. Nothing would change. Isnt a problem in College.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, HardyBoy said:

That late hit call on Singletary was super interesting that since it was after the play they didn't walk off yards, but took the down. Surprised me because I thought they were gonna call a crack back there and not a late hit, but dude did a pretty convincing Rodman flop.

 

Random, but on Allen's td, anyone notice Williams box out the defender instead of hitting him, which would have been a craxk back even if very little contact if the lineman sold it well.

 

That is a great take. There is no way that should have been an after the play penalty. He is blocking basically while the play is going on.   The officiating yesterday was just really awful.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, PetermansRedemption said:

 

 

The only reason the penalties offset is because both penalties were accepted. You always have the option to decline a penalty. Even in the event of a false start, the defense can decline the yardage. What OP is saying is correct and exactly my thought. The only reason I can see McDermott taking the offsetting option is due to the spot of the blocking foul. 10 yards from the spot of the foul must have resulted in worse than 1st and 10, otherwise you decline that offside penalty. 

 

Just a general question for everyone: Which would you rather have - 1st and 15, or 2nd and 10?

[PetermansRedemption]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Just a general question for everyone: Which would you rather have - 1st and 15, or 2nd and 10?

With this team, 1st and 15

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

With this team, 1st and 15

 

Same. Give this young team as many chances as possible.

 

I'd like to know the details as to what we would have ended up with had we declined the Offside penalty. I can see taking the 2nd and 10 over a 1st and 20, but not sure it would have been that far.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This was the Knox call downfield?  He seems to generate at least one holding/illegal block call every game.  This penalty really hurt because it was unnecessary and inconsequential to the play.  It was a big chunk play that got called back.  He's has to start playing smarter and eliminate these drive killers.  

 

It's time for him to hit the road. His back breaking plays, penalties, drops, fumbles, missed blocks are popping up way more often then his angry runs.  

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, ICanSleepWhenI'mDead said:

From what appears to be an official nfl website, at:

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/17_2013_Penalty_Enforcement.pdf

 

"Section 5 Fouls by Both Teams (Double Fouls)

 

Article 1:Double Foul Without Change of Possession. If there is a Double Foul (3-12-2-c) during a down in which there is not a change of possession, the penalties are offset, and the down is replayed at the previous spot. If it is a scrimmage down, the number of the next down and the line to gain is the same as for the down in which the fouls occurred."

 

Personally, I think the rule should be changed to allow a team to decline a penalty in this situation, but  that  does not appear to  currently be an option.

I believe this rule assumes both are accepted.

[HardyBoy]

3 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

The Knox block happened like 20 yards down field after Singletary caught it and ran. 

If it was just a 10 or 15 yard penalty and I knew I was giving up a long td I would interfere everytime. 

Late hit was a terrible call and should have been a crack back. The singletary already started the block when allen threw it at his feet.

 

Referees have been getting worse by the week. I didn’t think it was possible but I wouldn’t doubt they have bets amongst themselves to see who can have the worst calls possible. 

 

The most frustrating thing was when one of the Bills (neal I think) was pointing at the jumbotron after a holding call being like, check the replay that call was bs...the announcers were saying he really wants them to look at the replay...without showing the replay!!!

 

That was probably the second most annoying thing with the production of the game yesterday...when they went to that alternative camera angle on that big down when they didn't show the presnap even and just dropped you in that view...I hate alternative camera angles in general, if you're gonna do something than show the all-22 angle, but that yesterday was the worst example I think I've ever seen...even worse than on every kickoff like they sometimes do.

[PetermansRedemption]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I believe this rule assumes both are accepted.

That is my belief as well. I can’t see a team ever being forced to accept a penalty. But I’ve been wrong before. 

 

7 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

The most frustrating thing was when one of the Bills (neal I think) was pointing at the jumbotron after a holding call being like, check the replay that call was bs...the announcers were saying he really wants them to look at the replay...without showing the replay!!!

 

That was probably the second most annoying thing with the production of the game yesterday...when they went to that alternative camera angle on that big down when they didn't show the presnap even and just dropped you in that view...I hate alternative camera angles in general, if you're gonna do something than show the all-22 angle, but that yesterday was the worst example I think I've ever seen...even worse than on every kickoff like they sometimes do.

I usually find it pretty telling about the call when they don’t show a replay. I always assume it was a blatantly horrible call that the NFL wouldn’t want shown. When a player is practically begging a coach to look at the replay, he has to be pretty certain he didn’t do anything wrong. 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

Another stupid Dawson Knox penalty! He’s useless!