The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Interesting note, the 2020 Ravens offense is 31st in passing attempts and passing yards.  #1 in rushing attempts and #1 in rushing yards. 

 

While I'm a big fan of a good run game...I'd rather have Josh Allen and the Buffalo offense. 

 

I thought that offense would be your dream scenario 🤣🤣🤣

[FLFan]

Yes, this was predictable.  LaMar is not a real QB, and Roman is a one trick pony.  

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

This makes me want to pull up all the posts and comments I made last year when I said this very thing would happen and people wanted to argue it.  

 

Makes me want to dig the posts up where I said Allen will have the better career as a QB than Lamar and would rather have him still even after he won MVP and people mocked that.

 

Makes me want to bring up all the posts where I pointed out gimmick offenses like this never last and people argued he was the MVP.  

 

This is where I just causally insert:  I told you so.

 

Im no Lamar hater, I loved watching him play in college and enjoy watching him in the NFL.  And he will still be a dangerous QB, but he is literally what Vick was before him.  Took the league by fire quickly, and defenses just didn't have the answers initially.  But once they found a way to limit the damage on the ground, the limitations as a passer began to hold the offense back.  

 

I still think Lamar will have a long and successful career, and he could even still win a SB, maybe even this year with how good the defense is.  But anytime you have to run a gimmicky offense to mask the deficiencies of the offense, then you leave the door wide open for Defenses to understand how to exploit that.  Not every defense they face will have the talent to do so, but once you get to the playoffs, defenses become a bigger factor in games and so far, they have been able to stall Lamar and the Ravens.  

[Scott7975]

45 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

It's a total "chicken or the egg" debate. I think he's the most important player on the team.

Murray is really good...still wonder how a little guy like him holds up long term, but the ability is there.

With the way things are set up, he likely is the most important individual. Put in a different OC with a regular offensive system and I don't believe he would do to well. That's the problem. Teams that can contain him and stop the run while also locking down the seam pass will stop them most of the day. We did just last year. Our problem was we had no offense.

 

I dont believe they will win a SuperBowl with Lamar. Too many good teams either have the offense to out shoot them or have the defense to stop them or both in the playoffs. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Scott7975

[Warcodered]

 

It's almost like they have a very specific method of attack.

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

With the way things are set up, he likely is the most important individual. Put in a different OC with a regular offensive system and I don't believe he would do to well. That's the problem. Teams that can contain him and stop the run while also locking down the seam pass will stop them most of the day. We did just last year. Our problem was we had no offense.

 

I dont believe they will win a SuperBowl with Lamar. Too many good teams either have the offense to out shoot them or have the defense to stop them or both in the playoffs. 

 

The Bills don't get to claim any blueprint - LJ threw 3 TDs and we lost.  The "blueprint" for any great QB is the same - get pressure with 4, drop the rest into zone, and spy the QB if mobile. Easy in concept, extremely difficult to execute. 

 

I mentioned it a few pages ago, but I think the ceiling is still murky with Lamar. We saw some great flashes of it last year, but clearly, he can't run for 1200 a year. I don't know what his average season will look like long term, but it might be something between his 2019 and 2020 performance. Time will tell. 

 

WIn a Super Bowl... we'll see. It's hard as hell to do it. Some incredible QBs have only one ring. Do I think Lamar, until proven otherwise, gets you into January? Absolutely. Can he take you the distance? Maybe. I think he'll get at least one. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

“They’re calling out our plays, stuff like that,” Jackson told Eisen, via ESPN. “They know what we’re doing. Sometimes, stuff won’t go our way, if they’re beating us to the punch.”

Yes, Jackson confirmed, other teams are calling out the Ravens’ plays.

“Yeah, they definitely do,” Jackson said. “Like ‘run’ and stuff like that. ‘Watch out for this; watch out for that.’ Sometimes that’s what’s going on.”

 

Memo to Lamar: that may just be what happens when teams get enough tape on you.

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

“Like ‘run’ and stuff like that. ‘Watch out for this; watch out for that.’

 

Run? Yeah, that's a tough one to call against the Ravens. 

It's clearly not working. #1 in the league in rushing yards (again). 

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

The Bills don't get to claim any blueprint - LJ threw 3 TDs and we lost.  The "blueprint" for any great QB is the same - get pressure with 4, drop the rest into zone, and spy the QB if mobile. Easy in concept, extremely difficult to execute.

 

Well, I could mis-remember, but I recall Leslie Frazier talking about how the Ravens offense differed in some regards before we played them last year.

I had the impression that where other teams went wrong was in trying exactly what you describe - playing the Ravens like a regular, albeit quality, NFL offense.

 

My impression is that Frazier and McDermott went "all-in" on saying "this is a different style of offense, and we're going to craft our defense to match it".  I'll see if I can find some of the stuff that Cover1 and so forth did analyzing how the Bills played the Ravens, Zo Alexander talking about it and so forth.    Micah Hyde said in an interview it was the most film he'd ever watched preparing for a game.

 

We did hold the Ravens to a season-low in total yards and one of their lower point totals in a win.

 

7 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Run? Yeah, that's a tough one to call against the Ravens. 

It's clearly not working. #1 in the league in yards (again). 

 

Yeah, they may not be meeting their own expectations, but they're 6-2 and their losses are to what are arguably the 2 best teams in the AFC KC and the Stillers (sorry to My Bills but KC beat us and the Stillers being unbeaten so far).  They're still a very good team.

 

I assume you mean in "rush YPG" as I think the Ravens are 23rd (or something like that) in total YPG

Cardinals are surprisingly close to them, though.

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

 

It's almost like they have a very specific method of attack.

That was wild. I expected some more context, not a gotcha moment or anything, but that statement to be relevant to the conversation. 

Dude just said that unprovoked...for no reason...He then mentioned "it's just play calling really" and goes on to say "we just wait until half time and coach tells us what he sees"...

Unsure if he is trying to get him or his OC fired, or is he just oblivious that this is not what he should be saying to the national media? 

[John from Riverside]

They are still a very good team

 

They have a weakness though.....could rear its ugly head at playoff time

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I could mis-remember, but I recall Leslie Frazier talking about how the Ravens offense differed in some regards before we played them last year.

I had the impression that where other teams went wrong was in trying exactly what you describe - playing the Ravens like a regular, albeit quality, NFL offense.

 

My impression is that Frazier and McDermott went "all-in" on saying "this is a different style of offense, and we're going to craft our defense to match it".  I'll see if I can find some of the stuff that Cover1 and so forth did analyzing how the Bills played the Ravens, Zo Alexander talking about it and so forth.    Micah Hyde said in an interview it was the most film he'd ever watched preparing for a game.

 

We did hold the Ravens to a season-low in total yards and one of their lower point totals in a win.

 

 

 

That be an interesting post to see.  Gap discipline is critical against any option attack, and you'd want to make Mark Andrew's life miserable. If you wanted to spy Lamar's 4.3 speed, there are only a handful of guys in the league who might be able to handle him. Milano ankles certainly didn't keep up. 

 

Season low in yardage and points, this is where I see the Ravens as such a "high floor" team. Since he became the starter, they've got 30 games in a row with 20+ points. They may not be able to hang in a 40 point shootout with Mahomes, but who can? I'm sure they'll have an actual dud game eventually, but we're still waiting... 

 

Funny thread. Like you said, 6-2, only losing to the two best teams in the AFC. I think the "Lamar has been figured out" takes hold some water when he starts 16 games and they go 6-10. That article was kind of vague, more than anything , its a "foot in mouth" moment for Lamar. You need to keep that stuff in house. 

Edited November 12, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

That was wild. I expected some more context, not a gotcha moment or anything, but that statement to be relevant to the conversation. 

Dude just said that unprovoked...for no reason...He then mentioned "it's just play calling really" and goes on to say "we just wait until half time and coach tells us what he sees"...

Unsure if he is trying to get him or his OC fired, or is he just oblivious that this is not what he should be saying to the national media? 

I’m going with - oblivious 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

I’m going with - oblivious 

Same, didn't he say something about learning how to hold the ball better last year? He kind of seems to say things without thinking how other people are going to take it.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Warcodered

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

Same, didn't he say something about learning how to hold the ball better last year? He kind of seems to say things without thinking how other people are going to take it.

Yeah and something 2019 offseason about not realizing he would have a new offense to learn with a new OC

[Nihilarian]

The Chiefs, certainly seem to have the Ravens number.

 

Week 3, 2020. Lamar Jackson 15 of 28 for 97 yards, 1 TD, 4 sacks. rating 73.1

 

Meanwhile, Mahomes against that Ravens defense #1 in points allowed, #8 in yards allowed 31 of 42 for 385 yards, 4 TDs, 133.5 rate. 

 

The Chiefs beat the Ravens last season too. The Titans used the Bills defensive scheme to beat the Ravens in the playoffs last season 28-12.

 

 

On another note, Darn good thing the Bills found their run game against New England on that cold and rainy, windy day. Winter is coming! 

[Malazan]

So when I said that I thought Jackson lacked the focus to be consistently great year after year and struck me as a guy who would have an MVP year then read his own press clippings and maybe not work as hard, I wasn't insane? Strange, because so many on here told me I was was...

[PrimeTime101]

I said last year if defenses put 7 in the box, 2 either spy and or run/pass blitz  then third and long have heavy coverage and no more then 4 in the box that by doing this he could not sustain long drives. the problem last year is they respected his running ability on 3rd and 7+,. 2nd and 8+ giving him easy throws. when we played them last year our defense showed other teams how to beat him. now its become easier

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

The Chiefs, certainly seem to have the Ravens number.

 

Week 3, 2020. Lamar Jackson 15 of 28 for 97 yards, 1 TD, 4 sacks. rating 73.1

 

Meanwhile, Mahomes against that Ravens defense #1 in points allowed, #8 in yards allowed 31 of 42 for 385 yards, 4 TDs, 133.5 rate. 

 

The Chiefs beat the Ravens last season too. The Titans used the Bills defensive scheme to beat the Ravens in the playoffs last season 28-12.

 

On another note, Darn good thing the Bills found their run game against New England on that cold and rainy, windy day. Winter is coming! 

 

One blown play cost the Bills the ballgame. 

Tennessee shut him down in the playoffs too.  

[TheElectricCompany]

https://www.nfl.com/videos/baldy-s-breakdowns-lamar-jackson-flawless-in-second-half-vs-colts

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Uh, oh, Shots Fired (kind of)

 

Lamar Jackson says defenses calling out their plays, implying they've become too predictable.

 

Greg Roman says he doesn't take issue with Lamar's remarks, but that's nothing new:

https://www.nfl.com/news/greg-roman-defenses-calling-out-plays-is-nothing-new-and-part-of-the-chess-match

"With no fans in the stands, bands or music playing, you can hear a lot right about now," Roman said. "Some of it I can't repeat. Lamar's one of the great competitors I know. I define him as a winner. And he only wants to win every game, every play, game, practice. That's what drives him. He definitely gives me feedback on when people are calling something out and whatnot. That's definitely something we talk about. Calling out plays on a defense is nothing new. I can talk about Ed Reed and Ray Lewis, every play they're trying to guess what play you're going to run based on what they're seeing. That's a chess match."

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Greg Roman

 

Pre

Dick

Table 

 

 

😂 

 

 

 

 

Not only that but 

👉 👈

[TigerJ]

I've always thought that Lamar Jackson's narrowly defined skill set makes it possible to scheme ways to contain him.  Within his skill set, he can do things nobody else can, but there's a lot of stuff he doesn't do especially well.   While Buffalo lost their Baltimore game last season,  they demonstrated at least one approach for containing Jackson.  The Titans followed Buffalo's lead and polished it up a bit and beat the Ravens.  Other teams will use that, or maybe a variation and Baltimore will find it more and more challenging to keep their offense as productive as it was.

[Buffalo Junction]

40 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Uh, oh, Shots Fired (kind of)

 

Lamar Jackson says defenses calling out their plays, implying they've become too predictable.

 

Greg Roman says he doesn't take issue with Lamar's remarks, but that's nothing new:

https://www.nfl.com/news/greg-roman-defenses-calling-out-plays-is-nothing-new-and-part-of-the-chess-match

"With no fans in the stands, bands or music playing, you can hear a lot right about now," Roman said. "Some of it I can't repeat. Lamar's one of the great competitors I know. I define him as a winner. And he only wants to win every game, every play, game, practice. That's what drives him. He definitely gives me feedback on when people are calling something out and whatnot. That's definitely something we talk about. Calling out plays on a defense is nothing new. I can talk about Ed Reed and Ray Lewis, every play they're trying to guess what play you're going to run based on what they're seeing. That's a chess match."

 

 

Exactly what a bunch of us have been saying.... Wait and see if the league catches up with this incarnation of Roman’s offense. It’s happened at every stop in the NFL. The D coordinators and players are too mentally advanced to not figure it out, and once his system gets normalized with that personnel grouping the offense starts to slip. By the end as SF the fans were complaining about other teams knowing the plays. 
 

I’m not sure how much of that is on Jackson. One could argue that Roman’s scheme limits the development of QBs, but the sample size is too limited. However, Jackson really hasn’t improved much passing outside the numbers. I am certainly curious to see how he’d do in a Shanahan based offense that utilizes bootlegs and RPOs along with creative route combinations. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Exactly what a bunch of us have been saying.... Wait and see if the league catches up with this incarnation of Roman’s offense. It’s happened at every stop in the NFL. The D coordinators and players are too mentally advanced to not figure it out, and once his system gets normalized with that personnel grouping the offense starts to slip. By the end as SF the fans were complaining about other teams knowing the plays. 
 

I’m not sure how much of that is on Jackson. One could argue that Roman’s scheme limits the development of QBs, but the sample size is too limited. However, Jackson really hasn’t improved much passing outside the numbers. I am certainly curious to see how he’d do in a Shanahan based offense that utilizes bootlegs and RPOs along with creative route combinations. 

 

They're still 6-2 with losses only to KC and the Steelers, both excellent teams.

One could say this figuring out hasn't gotten too far in their way

[Buffalo Junction]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They're still 6-2 with losses only to KC and the Steelers, both excellent teams.

One could say this figuring out hasn't gotten too far in their way

Figuring it out and having the talent to do something about it are different matters. The opposing teams offense still has to beat the Ravens defense. The talent advantage they have will dissipate if they pay Jackson like it did in SF in 2014. If you look at the offensive stats from the SF team they sort of suddenly started seriously underperforming in the second half of 14’. IIRC they went from averaging 20+ ppg to 13ppg. Not saying it will happen again, but when it happens a few times to a coordinator it’s worth paying attention to as we go forward. 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Exactly what a bunch of us have been saying.... Wait and see if the league catches up with this incarnation of Roman’s offense. It’s happened at every stop in the NFL. The D coordinators and players are too mentally advanced to not figure it out, and once his system gets normalized with that personnel grouping the offense starts to slip. By the end as SF the fans were complaining about other teams knowing the plays. 
 

I’m not sure how much of that is on Jackson. One could argue that Roman’s scheme limits the development of QBs, but the sample size is too limited. However, Jackson really hasn’t improved much passing outside the numbers. I am certainly curious to see how he’d do in a Shanahan based offense that utilizes bootlegs and RPOs along with creative route combinations. 

 

Right thats Roman biggest weakness as a OC. 

[babulator]

Dan Orlovsky had a pretty good breakdown of Romans predictability here:

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

FF 3:30 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They're still 6-2 with losses only to KC and the Steelers, both excellent teams.

One could say this figuring out hasn't gotten too far in their way

Hap - 

 

I didn't say Jackson was trash and should be benched in favor of Joe Flacco.  I was talking about the long run.  I was talking about Jackson being unable to dominate the league like a premier QB unless he learns to play from the pocket.  It's now several weeks since my original post in this thread, and yes, he's 6-2, but he's near the absolute bottom of the league in passing yards per game - he's under 200.  How many people here have written how many thousand posts about Josh Allen, and Taylor before him, having to be able to throw consistently for more than 200 yards per game.   

 

Jackson is exactly the kind of QB who, when the game demands he put up 150 yards passing in the second half, he's going to struggle.  Others have explained better than I that the fundamental problem is Roman's offensive style.  Whatever it is, Jackson's long-term ability to be a threat to win the Super Bowl is dependent on one thing: the ability to be a top-10 passer from the pocket.  That's been true for running QBs from Tarkenton to Young to Vick to Wilson to Newton.  Jackson hasn't shown the fundamental arm skills to be that guy, and playing in an offense that doesn't demand that he develop that way doesn't help him.  

 

In the OP I said 

 

Quote

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

I still think that's true.  Might the Ravens win a Super Bowl playing with Jackson's current style?  Sure.  Flacco won a Super Bowl with a great Ravens defense.  The point is that no one is going to consider the Ravens to be a serious threat, year after year, until he shows he can play out of the pocket like Brees.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

I didn't say Jackson was trash and should be benched in favor of Joe Flacco.  I was talking about the long run.  I was talking about Jackson being unable to dominate the league like a premier QB unless he learns to play from the pocket.  It's now several weeks since my original post in this thread, and yes, he's 6-2, but he's near the absolute bottom of the league in passing yards per game - he's under 200.  How many people here have written how many thousand posts about Josh Allen, and Taylor before him, having to be able to throw consistently for more than 200 yards per game.   

 

Jackson is exactly the kind of QB who, when the game demands he put up 150 yards passing in the second half, he's going to struggle.  Others have explained better than I that the fundamental problem is Roman's offensive style.  Whatever it is, Jackson's long-term ability to be a threat to win the Super Bowl is dependent on one thing: the ability to be a top-10 passer from the pocket.  That's been true for running QBs from Tarkenton to Young to Vick to Wilson to Newton.  Jackson hasn't shown the fundamental arm skills to be that guy, and playing in an offense that doesn't demand that he develop that way doesn't help him.  

I get similar feedback. 
not saying Lamar sucks

 

Elite athlete, yes, it’s just that he’s not an elite QB. 

 

 

(When it comes down to having to pass to win)

Via @NFLResearch: The largest deficit the #Ravens have overcome to win with Lamar Jackson as their QB is 8 points.
 

 

 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

...round and round and ROUND we go. We're fully dug in now. 

 

The Ravens have a great roster, but point blank, he's the "straw that stirs the drink".  As he goes, the Ravens go, and I don't think we've seen his ceiling yet. 

 

Plus, isn't some adversity a good thing? He's been sloppy since the Chiefs, but he continues to find ways to win. The Steelers beat him up all game, but he kept his team in it until the final play. 

 

I think playoff wins are on the horizon. Hell, Bills v Ravens for the AFC crown would be a GREAT game. 

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[H2o]

19 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I get similar feedback. 
not saying Lamar sucks

 

Elite athlete, yes, it’s just that he’s not an elite QB. 

 

 

(When it comes down to having to pass to win)

Via @NFLResearch: The largest deficit the #Ravens have overcome to win with Lamar Jackson as their QB is 8 points.
 

 

 

 

Well they finally won a game after trailing at halftime against the Colts last week, albeit 10-7. 

1 minute ago, TheElectricCompany said:

...round and round and ROUND we go. We're fully dug in now. 

The Ravens have a great roster, but point blank, he's the "straw that stirs the drink".  

 

Wake me when he starts 16 games and they go 6-10. 

 

 

The record may not even be indicative of Lamar because the Ravens always seem to have a solid squad under Harbaugh. His worst record as a HC came in 2015 when they had an injury riddled 5-11 season. Other than that they have been .500 or better winning 4 division titles and a SB since 2008.  

[TheElectricCompany]

31 minutes ago, H2o said:

The record may not even be indicative of Lamar because the Ravens always seem to have a solid squad under Harbaugh. His worst record as a HC came in 2015 when they had an injury riddled 5-11 season. Other than that they have been .500 or better winning 4 division titles and a SB since 2008.  

 

They've had a good roster for years, but there was a switch that flipped the day Lamar started. Since then, they've been an elite team.

Playoff wins are next, but they've got many chapters to write with #8 leading the way. Crazy that he is younger than Burrow!

Edited November 13, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[Teddy KGB]

Lamar must have thought this was a playoff game 🥶🥶

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Lamar must have thought this was a playoff game 🥶🥶

 

 

To be fair, he didn’t get a lot of help from his WR who were dropping balls that hit them in the hands, or his center who appeared to be trying to gift 6 points to the Pats

[Rc2catch]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To be fair, he didn’t get a lot of help from his WR who were dropping balls that hit them in the hands, or his center who appeared to be trying to gift 6 points to the Pats

I don’t give Lamar much props but that was a pretty pathetic game from the center and his teammates definitely didn’t do Lamar any favors. 

[Ghost_002!]

Don't understand the Jackson hate from NFL fans everywhere. He doesn't seem like a bad QB at all when he has to throw...

 

If Allen could transform himself into a actual QB. I do not see why Jackson couldn't...

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ghost_002!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

Don't understand the Jackson hate from NFL fans everywhere. He doesn't seem like a bad QB at all when he as to throw...

 

If Allen could transform himself into a actual QB. I do not see why Jackson could...

I think the hate was sort of created by the glowing praise he received last year...every player has flaws and makes mistakes but to hear announcers and analysts talk about mahomes and Jackson like they are some kind of divine beings got pretty old 🤣

[Ghost_002!]

9 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think the hate was sort of created by the glowing praise he received last year...every player has flaws and makes mistakes but to hear announcers and analysts talk about mahomes and Jackson like they are some kind of divine beings got pretty old 🤣

 

 

 Not saying you...but I hate when fans act like that...hating cause another player gets hype or gets overly hype..like its the media's job to sell stars. IMO

 

"Let Jackson eat" he is no where as bad as fans make him out to be.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ghost_002!