Article: do the bills have a problem at CB2?

[BillsMafi$]

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/buffalo-bills-cb2

[GunnerBill]

No. Next question.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

No. Next question.

Well, my reaction to that question is also "no," but now I'll take a look at the article just to assure myself that I'm not missing something.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

No. Next question.

 

He is pretty fair about the question. He points out that the position is a weakness relative to the Bills, but not necessarily a weakness in the sense that other teams are not marching out starting quality players at certain positions. Its just the weakest spot on a very good defense, which I think is true. His point is the Bills did not invest in the position like many thought they would, considering its about the only "hole" on the defense. 

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

He is pretty fair about the question. He points out that the position is a weakness relative to the Bills, but not necessarily a weakness in the sense that other teams are not marching out starting quality players at certain positions. Its just the weakest spot on a very good defense, which I think is true. His point is the Bills did not invest in the position like many thought they would, considering its about the only "hole" on the defense. 

They brought in Norman and Gaines which should have been enough, but then Gaines opted out.

 

So I think it is likely that Wallace is the guy again. And I'm fine with that. He had a sophomore slump but he's a young player and can get better.

 

I agree with the article that Norman doesn't have the athleticism anymore to turn and run with NFL WR's, but we'll see.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, MJS said:

They brought in Norman and Gaines which should have been enough, but then Gaines opted out.

 

So I think it is likely that Wallace is the guy again. And I'm fine with that. He had a sophomore slump but he's a young player and can get better.

 

I agree with the article that Norman doesn't have the athleticism anymore to turn and run with NFL WR's, but we'll see.

 

Norman and Gaines are just "guys." They aren't upgrades. I hope Levi can improve, but he is so slight. He will probably be the defense's weakness again this year.  But, hey, every defense has its soft spots. That would be miles better than our run defense being terrible again. 

[Shaw66]

Okay, I read it.  It makes at least a credible point - that Wallace was the weakest link in an excellent defense, and the Bills didn't get better at the position during the off-season.  They lost Kevin Johnson, EJ Gaines opted out.  They've added "only" Josh Norman and Dane Jackson (7th round pick).  Of course, "didn't get better" is premised on the author's conclusion that Josh Norman's skills have eroded to the point where he isn't likely to be able to compete for time. 

 

I think the argument is pretty weak.  First, Wallace can be expected to continue to improve, and if he's the weakest player on my defense, I'm happy to settle for that.  That's particularly true that the front seven has gotten stronger.  

 

Second, the author ignores how much the Bills defense is a team defense, not a collection of individual talents.  It's all about the team working together, and in the defensive backfield it's about the four or five starters, together with the linebackers, playing as a team led by Hyde and Poyer.  Ignoring that point causes the author to overstate Wallace's individual skills and Norman's current physical capabilities.  Wallace is now a couple of years into playing the number 2 corner position in a team defense, and he can play it just fine.  Norman has had several years of experience playing the number 1 position in this very same defense, and sliding down to the number 2 probably is a step he can make.

 

So, yeah, sure, if your standard is perfection, Wallace may be the weak link, but am I worried about it?  No. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Okay, I read it.  It makes at least a credible point - that Wallace was the weakest link in an excellent defense, and the Bills didn't get better at the position during the off-season.  They lost Kevin Johnson, EJ Gaines opted out.  They've added "only" Josh Norman and Dane Jackson (7th round pick).  Of course, "didn't get better" is premised on the author's conclusion that Josh Norman's skills have eroded to the point where he isn't likely to be able to compete for time. 

 

I think the argument is pretty weak.  First, Wallace can be expected to continue to improve, and if he's the weakest player on my defense, I'm happy to settle for that.  That's particularly true that the front seven has gotten stronger.  

 

Second, the author ignores how much the Bills defense is a team defense, not a collection of individual talents.  It's all about the team working together, and in the defensive backfield it's about the four or five starters, together with the linebackers, playing as a team led by Hyde and Poyer.  Ignoring that point causes the author to overstate Wallace's individual skills and Norman's current physical capabilities.  Wallace is now a couple of years into playing the number 2 corner position in a team defense, and he can play it just fine.  Norman has had several years of experience playing the number 1 position in this very same defense, and sliding down to the number 2 probably is a step he can make.

 

So, yeah, sure, if your standard is perfection, Wallace may be the weak link, but am I worried about it?  No. 

 

Even in team defenses, cornerbacks are to at least some extent left out on an island. Even if they have help over the top, or a LB in a passing lane, they are still by themselves with their guy for most of the play. Levi is very slight, and he doesn't have the athletic ability to overcome it. He will do OK, but never better than OK. So, yeah, I'm not "worried" about it either. But you saw last year teams take advantage of Levi. It would have been nice to have someone better. 

[GunnerBill]

Josh Norman can still play. He jacked it in last year playing in a clown show franchise. He will start opposite White and he will surprise a lot of people.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Norman and Gaines are just "guys." They aren't upgrades. I hope Levi can improve, but he is so slight. He will probably be the defense's weakness again this year.  But, hey, every defense has its soft spots. That would be miles better than our run defense being terrible again. 

Gaines is just a guy who performed consistently well, and this defense is about consistency.  I was sorry to see him go, because he was a real threat to take the job from Wallace.  

 

As for Norman, I'm just not prepared to buy the narrative that he's declined physically to the point that he can't play in the league.  I don't buy it for a minute, mostly because his so-called "decline" coincided with his move from one of the acknowledged young defensive geniuses in the league (McDermott) to one of the acknowledge dysfunctional franchises in the league (Washington).  Richard Sherman has been playing longer than Norman, and nobody's talking about his physical decline.  Sherman was coached in Seattle by Robert Saleh, his current defensive coordinator.   I''m guessing that Sherman is still a competitor in the league because of brains and coaching much more so than continuing physical excellence, and I suspect that's what we're going to see with Norman, too. 

5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Even in team defenses, cornerbacks are to at least some extent left out on an island. Even if they have help over the top, or a LB in a passing lane, they are still by themselves with their guy for most of the play. Levi is very slight, and he doesn't have the athletic ability to overcome it. He will do OK, but never better than OK. So, yeah, I'm not "worried" about it either. But you saw last year teams take advantage of Levi. It would have been nice to have someone better. 

That's fair, and I agree it would be nice to have someone better.   But I'd guess that if you look around the league, Wallace is in the top half of #2 corners.  Maybe not top half of pure cover corners, but top half in corners playing all aspects of their position.  Pretty tough to complain about that.  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Gaines is just a guy who performed consistently well, and this defense is about consistency.  I was sorry to see him go, because he was a real threat to take the job from Wallace.  

 

As for Norman, I'm just not prepared to buy the narrative that he's declined physically to the point that he can't play in the league.  I don't buy it for a minute, mostly because his so-called "decline" coincided with his move from one of the acknowledged young defensive geniuses in the league (McDermott) to one of the acknowledge dysfunctional franchises in the league (Washington).  Richard Sherman has been playing longer than Norman, and nobody's talking about his physical decline.  Sherman was coached in Seattle by Robert Saleh, his current defensive coordinator.   I''m guessing that Sherman is still a competitor in the league because of brains and coaching much more so than continuing physical excellence, and I suspect that's what we're going to see with Norman, too. 

 

THAT is a very strong argument. I just hate hoping that vets will just "figure it out" again. It always feels like such a long shot. 

[whorlnut]

McD has never had two stud CB’s. He’s had a really good one and an average one every step in his career. I think they are banking on Norman regaining some of the form that made him a star in Carolina. I don’t put anything past McD when it comes to getting the most out of his DB’s. 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

THAT is a very strong argument. I just hate hoping that vets will just "figure it out" again. It always feels like such a long shot. 

 

Norman played better in Washington than the narrative. Until 2019 that is and to me his body language looked like that of a guy who had given up. I don't think we are going to get 2015 Josh Norman, not for a minute. But if we get 2017 / 2018 Josh Norman that is still an upgrade on Wallace. 

[Maybe Someday]

I don't think anyone expects Norman to be what he was in Carolina but I certainly expect him to be better than he was in Washington.  McD doesn't expect guys to be what they're not. 

 

Say what you want about Wallace but I thought he was sorely missed in the playoff game. 

[Just Joshin']

1 hour ago, BillsMafi$ said:

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/buffalo-bills-cb2

Do you have an opinion?

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

He is pretty fair about the question. He points out that the position is a weakness relative to the Bills, but not necessarily a weakness in the sense that other teams are not marching out starting quality players at certain positions. Its just the weakest spot on a very good defense, which I think is true. His point is the Bills did not invest in the position like many thought they would, considering its about the only "hole" on the defense. 

The article could be written for any team/unit as there is always a weak link.  The bigger question is will Wallace or the CB2 cost us any games because he is weak or the scheme can not cover for him.  I expect the D to perform at a min better than last year or some marginal improvement.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

7 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

Do you have an opinion?

The article could be written for any team/unit as there is always a weak link.  The bigger question is will Wallace or the CB2 cost us any games because he is weak or the scheme can not cover for him.  I expect the D to perform at a min better than last year or some marginal improvement.

 

Alot of turnover on that DL. I wouldn't take it as a given that they perform just as well.  They might, and I even think they will, but I am hesitant to be overly optimistic. 

[Just Joshin']

2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Alot of turnover on that DL. I wouldn't take it as a given that they perform just as well.  They might, and I even think they will, but I am hesitant to be overly optimistic. 

Part of the reason I said marginal.  They may start slower on the DL but by the end of the year will be better.

[machine gun kelly]

The only facts we have on Norman is he payed at a high level under McD’s system, and not when not played to his strengths in Washington.  Maybe he lost a step and is a reasonable argument, but not a foregone conclusion.  Now he goes back to the system he knows like the back of his hand so this year will determine did he really lose a step or was the shirt show in Washington the problem.  None of us know and happy to wait and see.  This author doesn’t know anything more than us.  Happy to wait and see.  
 

I do believe Beane used the cost constraints and available talent to put the best team together.  No one can predict who would opt out.  You’d think with all of these guys already reporting that part will calm down.  I know nothing more than any of you.

[MJS]

3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Norman and Gaines are just "guys." They aren't upgrades. I hope Levi can improve, but he is so slight. He will probably be the defense's weakness again this year.  But, hey, every defense has its soft spots. That would be miles better than our run defense being terrible again. 

Well I don't expect McDermott to ever bring in a high priced CB2. He likes bringing in young guys and overlooked guys and coaching them up. The secondary seems to be his specialty.

[somnus00]

"Problem," is a strong word. But I'd say CB2 is a weak link on a pretty stacked roster. I was hoping for a CB2 in the draft. We were in position to take 2 that I really liked.

 

Is there a chance the Norman improves in McDermott's defense? Sure, but he's not a spring chicken, he's never been fast, his physical gifts just aren't there anymore. He needs to be the wily veteran who uses his football smarts to make plays. I don't like relying on that. I love Levi as a back-up. But he doesn't have the physical gifts to be a playmaker or to stop a playmaker.

[billsbackto81]

Teams don't usually have 2 elite level CBs on a starting defense. Usually on most Top defenses you'll have an elite or pro bowl level CB on one side and a very good to above average CB on the other. Unfortunately the drop off after Tre is pretty significant. Fortunately our D is designed around players that excel in zone coverage that have good recognition, anticipation, and reaction. If Norman recaptures his form from his Carolina days we should be good. Wallace, Jackson and newly acquired King provide solid depth. 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

Please show me a team that has all-pros at every position.

[Nester]

I am hopeful Norman is the solution 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Josh Norman can still play. He jacked it in last year playing in a clown show franchise. He will start opposite White and he will surprise a lot of people.

certainly possible. Scheme makes a world of difference, and the redskins DC put him in man coverage along with Badly misfitting his scheme to most of the plAyers on that roster. 
 

Certainly could have a late career resurgence playing back in palms zone 

[billsfan89]

Possibly? I think Levi Wallace is a decent CB2 option and Norman is a reclamation project. So if Josh Norman busts they can plug in Levi Wallace and be fine.

[TigerJ]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that CB2 is the weakest spot on the defense.  The question is, how weak is it.  The answer is, probably not that bad.  Levi Wallace is a known quantity.  He shouldn't be any worse than last year, and will probably be a bit better.  Josh Norman is hard to figure.  He was playing in a Washington defense that did not play to his strengths.   Maybe declining athleticism played a large role in his poor play, but it might have been more scheme and impaired motivation.  Norman is not a young cornerback, but there have been a number of cornerbacks who have been effective well into their thirties.  I fully expect Buffalo to address CB fairly early in the draft next year, but I'm not to worried about the position for this season.

[Protocal69]

2 hours ago, TigerJ said:

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that CB2 is the weakest spot on the defense.  The question is, how weak is it.  The answer is, probably not that bad.  Levi Wallace is a known quantity.  He shouldn't be any worse than last year, and will probably be a bit better.  Josh Norman is hard to figure.  He was playing in a Washington defense that did not play to his strengths.   Maybe declining athleticism played a large role in his poor play, but it might have been more scheme and impaired motivation.  Norman is not a young cornerback, but there have been a number of cornerbacks who have been effective well into their thirties.  I fully expect Buffalo to address CB fairly early in the draft next year, but I'm not to worried about the position for this season.

I literally had a dream last night that we took a CB in the 1st. smh

[Billl]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Norman played better in Washington than the narrative. Until 2019 that is and to me his body language looked like that of a guy who had given up. I don't think we are going to get 2015 Josh Norman, not for a minute. But if we get 2017 / 2018 Josh Norman that is still an upgrade on Wallace. 

Norman was horrific.  He was targeted 46 times and gave up 7 TDs.  He gave up 10 yards per attempt, and opposing QBs had a rating of 129 when targeting him.  He might have been the worst player at any position in the league.  I can’t imagine he starts.

[Lurker]

Meh.  I think I'll keep my ad blocker on for that site...

[Malazan]

9 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

Hope Norman can be great again but that really feels like wishful thinking.

 

Expecting great from him is...well..not realistic. The Bills are likely looking for consistently average and if they get that, they'd be in good shape.

[frogger]

I am on the team that believes Norman is a system CB, leave it to Washington to believe he could play in a system that wasn’t McDermott’s.  He also gave up on Washington, I think ownership and coaching (or lack of) made the situation intolerable.  
 

 

[skibum]

A lot of teams will be starting JAGs at a lot of positions this year. The good news is that there is more talent than opportunity out there, so I think it will all even out and things will be fine. 

[marky]

“If the Buffalo Bills’ defense has a weakness, where is it?"

A lack of aggression. You can't let Watson slip that tackle in playoff OT. Rip his head off.

 

Add an identity instead of just containing everything. Play to win even if it's not fair.

[purple haze]

10 hours ago, MJS said:

So I think it is likely that Wallace is the guy again. And I'm fine with that. He had a sophomore slump but he's a young player and can get better.

He had a 3 game “slump.” Outside that he played well  just like his rookie season.  I expect he will play well again and we’ll just have to accept it.

[Mango]

Remember when Dick Jauron converted WR George Wilson to SS. What a wild time to be a bills fan. 

[Punching Bag]

George Wilson was a better DB than a WR and he was a DB who could catch and tackled well for a former WR.

 

I think Bills weakness may be depth this year on DBs.  Losing Kevin Johnson to a contract the Bills could have afforded will hurt.

[John from Riverside]

Is this a real qustion?

 

Because we have one of the best in the NFL at one spot and a mix of guys at number 2?   We cant be pro bowl at every position on a team

[BullBuchanan]

CB2 and SLB are probably the weakest, but not really concerned. Not a lot of teams have a great #2.

[Locomark]

Well the Bills photographer seems to have a problem with Josh Norman as a roster member..  check out his photo on the Bills Roster site under the roster section, it’s pretty funny. It’s about 1/3 of his head...... 

 

In all seriousness, no we do not have a problem. We have better cb2 talent now than in any of our 4 SB years. What we need on defense are more forced turnovers which seemed to drop off last year. That is part pass rush and part forcing more fumbles. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Locomark

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Billl said:

Norman was horrific.  He was targeted 46 times and gave up 7 TDs.  He gave up 10 yards per attempt, and opposing QBs had a rating of 129 when targeting him.  He might have been the worst player at any position in the league.  I can’t imagine he starts.

 

Yea he was in 2019. But I don't think he was trying. Before that he was still a good player. Maybe he dropped off a cliff last year but I suspect he mentally checked out of a clown show.