Dkollidas Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) As a subscriber to the Athletic, I’ve read SOOOOOOOO many articles and listened to SOOOOOOOO many podcasts from Buscaglia & Fairburn about our “need” for a big nickel. I understand what their premise is. At the same time I don’t see the crazy need for it. In my view, Siran Neal showed up more and more as the season went on last year. He was definitely a project when they drafted him and I believe he can help fill that role. Jaquan Johnson is also another possibility to fill that role. He doesn’t have much tape but the finale against the Jets he was all over the field, and I believe he could become a bigger part of the defense this season. Dean Marlowe, while not a great player, has filled in sufficiently there. There’s also have Hyde and Poyer who can Step up and handle that role as well if needed situationally. I also believe they were looking at Dugger & Chinn in case they were unable to come to an agreement with Poyer, but they since have extended him and are set at safety. I believe the bigger question when looking at a player like Dugger is if he can replace Milano. If they believe he can, then I’m all for it. But I also listen to a lot of Joe Marino (who I trust more than Buscaglia or Fairburn) basically said Dugger hasn’t really shown on tape he can do what they would be looking for in a “Big Nickel”. I just don’t see the desire to use 54 for a guy who will play 1-2 years situationally and has to make a big step up from DII, who is also already 24yrs old. Edited April 24, 2020 by Dkollidas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Yes it is. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 It's not a need, it's an opportunity. In a Conference where 1 of the best 2 teams has a great TE and the other a running QB then having a big nickel gives more options 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonley1180 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 I think the "Big Nickel" is a result of the new breed pass catching Tight Ends. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFT Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Nobody ever considers the Canadian exchange rate on big nickels... truly unfortunate. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonley1180 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1033565-nfl-future-the-evolution-of-the-tight-end-from-ditka-to-gronk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 It seems to me that they use Edumonds and Milano to cover RB's and TE's and it works. I think "Big Nickel" is a niche that can be filled by quality coverage LB's. Even in that niche I think the Bills have players that can fill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mountain Man said: It's not a need, it's an opportunity. In a Conference where 1 of the best 2 teams has a great TE and the other a running QB then having a big nickel gives more options Agreed. While we don’t “need” it we could certainly upgrade. That’s pretty much where our team is at this point. We don’t “need” anything but we could stand to upgrade a few positions. neal played fine. Until he let Watson end our season. Someone like Dugger or Chinn could take this D to another level in that position. having depth and players that can move around is very important for to this regime. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 I am really pulling for us to draft Antoine Winfield Jr., because it would be awesome to have AW's son. From what I read, he seems like a guy that can shift between safety and being a "big nickel." I don't think he is big, but from what I read, he tackles like dad (and we used to match AW up against guys like Tony Gonzalez back in the day). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Every single need for this team is overblown. We're pretty good post free agency and trades. Anything else is just cake. Obviously it would be nice to upgrade a few positions, but not necessary. There's not a single position that is preventing this team from being a contender unless Josh Allen doesn't continue to progress. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Siran Neal has some serious explosion on the field, I had no idea he was so fast. Guy really impressed me last season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Rc2catch said: Siran Neal has some serious explosion on the field, I had no idea he was so fast. Guy really impressed me last season Agreed. To me we already have our big nickel with him. I dont see a massive need to be honest. We have far bigger needs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills404 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Call me crazy, but I can't picture McBeane spending a Day 2 pick in the draft upgrading a positon (where we already have a decent player) that only plays around 20% of the snaps on defense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, Dkollidas said: As a subscriber to the Athletic, I’ve read SOOOOOOOO many articles and listened to SOOOOOOOO many podcasts from Buscaglia & Fairburn about our “need” for a big nickel. I understand what their premise is. At the same time I don’t see the crazy need for it. In my view, Siran Neal showed up more and more as the season went on last year. He was definitely a project when they drafted him and I believe he can help fill that role. Jaquan Johnson is also another possibility to fill that role. He doesn’t have much tape but the finale against the Jets he was all over the field, and I believe he could become a bigger part of the defense this season. Dean Marlowe, while not a great player, has filled in sufficiently there. There’s also have Hyde and Poyer who can Step up and handle that role as well if needed situationally. I also believe they were looking at Dugger & Chinn in case they were unable to come to an agreement with Poyer, but they since have extended him and are set at safety. I believe the bigger question when looking at a player like Dugger is if he can replace Milano. If they believe he can, then I’m all for it. But I also listen to a lot of Joe Marino (who I trust more than Buscaglia or Fairburn) basically said Dugger hasn’t really shown on tape he can do what they would be looking for in a “Big Nickel”. I just don’t see the desire to use 54 for a guy who will play 1-2 years situationally and has to make a big step up from DII, who is also already 24yrs old. What you or I think about whether they need a guy like this is less important than what they think. And what they think is probably best indicated by the fact that very recently they became the first team in the league to hire a "Nickel Coach." It's huge for them. Hyde and Poyer are already on the field when they bring in the big nickel. Siran Neal was OK at it but not good enough. And he's too small to really fit the role all that well. Both Chinn and Dugger are significantly bigger than Neal and yet also quite a bit more athletic. Jaquan Johnson is 5'10" 191. He' a safety or a CB, but the guy they're looking for ideally is a lot bigger than that. Marlowe is another smaller guy at 203. I'm not a huge measureables guy, but this site charts size with athletic ability. Take a look at what our guys look like when charted like this. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/dean-marlowe https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/jaquan-johnson https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/siran-neal Now take a look at Dugger and Chinn: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/jeremy-chinn https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/kyle-dugger Measurables aren't everything, far from it. But these two are a different kind of beast from the guys we're going with presently. The Bills having visited Lenoir-Rhyne three times speaks to how important they think this is. Not that that means they'll definitely go with either guy. But yeah, the Bills obviously think this is a need. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazeduck Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 As I said in another thread, it's about more than just having a need, you have to find the player too. If a Jajuan Johnson type is just as bad in coverage as a 3rd LB, you're actually losing there. Delpit is the only one available that could come in and be that guy right away, to me. If we want to take a crack at Dugger in the 4th (I think his small school status will kill his draft prospects) then I'd be all for it, but I don't think you can say he's automatically your day 1 nickel LB starter. Sometimes it's better to not out-think the room... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills404 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said: Measurables aren't everything, far from it. But these two are a different kind of beast from the guys we're going with presently. The Bills having visited Lenoir-Rhyne three times speaks to how important they think this is. Not that that means they'll definitely go with either guy. But yeah, the Bills obviously think this is a need. I'd bet my house that they were scouting him as a potential 2021 replacement for Poyer before we extended him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whorlnut Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Yes...it’s overblown. I haven’t heard anyone talk about this as much as Joe B and Fairburn. It’s gotten really annoying and I’d be pretty upset if we took a luxury over a more glaring need than RB or edge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Big Nickel to me comes from having the right player more than scheme. Though looking at our roster I can see how having another hammering safety to put on field we can run a lot of big nickel especially on second and 8 type situations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 This whole topic makes me wonder what Deone Buccanon is up to these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenorthremembers Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 I think its overblown in the sense that both guys at the Athletic seem to think it has to be a safety. As such, there is this belief the Bills have focused on trying to draft or sign someone specifically to fill this "Big Nickel" role, rather than the reality which is the Bills try very hard not to have a big plodding linebacker on the field in base sets because offenses use spread more often than not. I also dont think the Big Nickel is this novel idea that is specific to the Bills defense. So I dont think there is this dire need to go and get Kyle Dugger just because he looks like a fast tweener, he has to be able to fill other roles in the defense as well. I think the Athletic latched on to something from when McDermott was first hired and ran with it. 13 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: This whole topic makes me wonder what Deone Buccanon is up to these days. Sitting around wondering why his career peaked at 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 44 minutes ago, NewEra said: Agreed. While we don’t “need” it we could certainly upgrade. That’s pretty much where our team is at this point. We don’t “need” anything but we could stand to upgrade a few positions. neal played fine. Until he let Watson end our season. Someone like Dugger or Chinn could take this D to another level in that position. having depth and players that can move around is very important for to this regime. Good post. One of those 2 could elevate this defense even more, especially considering we don't have that 3rd caliber LB to go with Edmunds and Milano. Klein is serviceable but in a Big Nickel Dugger or Chinn would be a nasty addition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 33 minutes ago, gobills404 said: Call me crazy, but I can't picture McBeane spending a Day 2 pick in the draft upgrading a positon (where we already have a decent player) that only plays around 20% of the snaps on defense. We don't currently have anyone in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobills404 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, Mountain Man said: We don't currently have anyone in that position. Neal and Marlowe it literally says that in the first tweet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Round Bust Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 hybrid 6-1 or 6-2...220-225 lbs a big nickel that can play the run, cover TE and RBs in pass coverage and blitz so it confuses the offense by allowing more variety and diversity to your scheme and formations as such allows other LBs to blitz without sacrificing one slower in pass coverage. Can also play safety as backup and while developing experience will contribute on special teams. But I wonder if Dugger is gone before we pick what they would do ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyjj Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) From what Carolina did in 2017 and based on Chinn's/Dugger 's athletic profiles, based on matchups, Bills D could go Big Nickel for 35-40% of downs in a year. They help contain a mobile QB. Can cover TE on the RPO stuff. They can pick up RBs in the flat or on wheel routes. Makes the D less susceptible to the run while in pass D packages. Instead of a small 5'11 200 lb guy, you have someone who is 6'2" and 220 but can cover like a CB. Can see the value of a hybrid player like this immediately and they could actually replace Milano if he leaves. Edited April 25, 2020 by freddyjj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner. What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Is it a HUGE NEED. Absolutely not. But in all honesty, we don't have ANY really big needs this year. Any position we draft is going to be playing a limited number of snaps as a rookie. Lots of people want a Running Back. Whoever we draft is going to splitting carries with Devin Singletary. Lots of people want a Wide Receiver. A draftee would be #4 at best behind Stefon Diggs, John Brown and Cole Beasley. Lots of people want a Defensive End. A rookie would rotate behind Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison and Quinton Jefferson. Lots of people want a Cornerback. We already have a competition of Josh Norman, Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines opposite Tre White. Our current Big Nickel is usually Siran Neal, who is better suited as a pure backup Safety. Upgrading Neal would give us more ability to cover TEs, while not sacrificing run support. It's another chess piece for our coaching staff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner. What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around. The trick is to find someone who can fill all these roles and be stout against the run. If it was easy to fill that role there would be no discussion as every team would have two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Just now, Just Joshin' said: The trick is to find someone who can fill all these roles and be stout against the run. If it was easy to fill that role there would be no discussion as every team would have two. It started with Mark Barron and that dude the Jags have, it's just been a slow evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 minute ago, mjt328 said: Is it a HUGE NEED. Absolutely not. But in all honesty, we don't have ANY really big needs this year. Any position we draft is going to be playing a limited number of snaps as a rookie. Lots of people want a Running Back. Whoever we draft is going to splitting carries with Devin Singletary. Lots of people want a Wide Receiver. A draftee would be #4 at best behind Stefon Diggs, John Brown and Cole Beasley. Lots of people want a Defensive End. A rookie would rotate behind Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison and Quinton Jefferson. Lots of people want a Cornerback. We already have a competition of Josh Norman, Levi Wallace and EJ Gaines opposite Tre White. Our current Big Nickel is usually Siran Neal, who is better suited as a pure backup Safety. Upgrading Neal would give us more ability to cover TEs, while not sacrificing run support. It's another chess piece for our coaching staff. This right here is exactly why I’m just drafting whatever big time talent slips through. If it’s one of those big hybrid safeties so be it. just get a player you think can impact the game. Impact players, to me, are more important than any “need” they might have for depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Just now, ScottLaw said: I guess the question is would you rather have another playmaker on offense or defense? Its a pretty easy answer for me.... Defense. A WR is the 4th guy for at least 2 more years. A RB is possible what that basically says "take a seat" to Singletary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: I think people are misinterpreting what the position would be, or I am. The consensus is a situational role player subbing in for the NC. That is what Neal and some of other Safetys did. They are 190-200 pounds and are larger than our normal Nickle corner. What this "Buffalo Nickle" is, a big former Safety (215-220 pounds, none of our current Safetys are over 200lbs) who are very fast, very strong, very physical, very agile. They are new age LBs who lack the traditional pounds, but are elite athletes. These Buffalo Backers can stay in a base defense when opponents go 3 wide, or cover these crazy TEs. This isn't a gimic situational player, but a new age defensive weapon. We could see 2 by the time Sunday rolls around. Right now, the Bills defense would probably look like this, depending on the package: - AJ Klein starting at SLB in base 4-3 looks - Taron Johnson starting at NCB in pure nickel defense against 3 wide receivers - Siran Neal starting at NCB in the big nickel From what I understand (from those who studied Carolina's old defensive packages), Sean McDermott actually prefers to go with the Big Nickel formation more often. We just haven't had an exact fit in his first 3 years here. The recent interest in Kyle Dugger and Jeremy Chinn is causing several to connect the dots. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Right now, the Bills defense would probably look like this, depending on the package: - AJ Klein starting at SLB in base 4-3 looks - Taron Johnson starting at NCB in pure nickel defense against 3 wide receivers - Siran Neal starting at NCB in the big nickel From what I understand (from those who studied Carolina's old defensive packages), Sean McDermott actually prefers to go with the Big Nickel formation more often. We just haven't had an exact fit in his first 3 years here. The recent interest in Kyle Dugger and Jeremy Chinn is causing several to connect the dots. Right, a rookie buffalo nickle basically sends Klien and Neal to the bench (eventually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Alternatively, eventually we could just get another elite LB with the necessary wheels. Sometimes I believe we overthink this stuff. The 'Big Nickel' strikes me as simply being a way to adjust to certain situations, where you haven't got the necessary base talent. i.e. 3, 3 down LBs. I understand the necessity to do this currently, but I don't think it has to be an approach set in stone, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Buddo said: Alternatively, eventually we could just get another elite LB with the necessary wheels. Sometimes I believe we overthink this stuff. The 'Big Nickel' strikes me as simply being a way to adjust to certain situations, where you haven't got the necessary base talent. i.e. 3, 3 down LBs. I understand the necessity to do this currently, but I don't think it has to be an approach set in stone, at all. I think the main difference is elite agility and explosiveness. These guys are probably better in coverage. Also hard to nab truly elite LB outside the first half of round 1. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said: I think the main difference is elite agility and explosiveness. These guys are probably better in coverage. Also hard to nab truly elite LB outside the first half of round 1. I couldn't argue there, but another Edmunds type could solve the 'problem'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeAndy Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Buddo said: I couldn't argue there, but another Edmunds type could solve the 'problem'. Agreed, but they are few and far between. In theory, this player will have better coverage skills and more agile than even Edmunds. The sacrifice would likely be getting off blocks, but Matt Milano does fine. Edited April 24, 2020 by TheyCallMeAndy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Is the Need for a RB overblown? How about the need for an Edge? The Need for a WR? A CB? The answer to all of those, I believe, is yes. We aren't drafting a player at 54 because we need him in the sense that we don't have anyone else to play that spot. We're drafting for supplement, and competition. So to answer your question, I think we could use/get a return of value on a big nickel as much as we could just about any other position in this draft. We're in a good spot, we can be luxurious and take whose there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjv001 Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 I think McDermott has done the homework and concluded having a Big Nickel is a critical necessity for today's NFL defenses. With that said, I have no problem with Dugger or Chinn at 54. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 Big Nickel can be found in Sudbury Ontario 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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