Kobe Bryant: Killed in Helicopter crash (update: NTSB prelim. report)

[bbb]

9 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Is it an official RIP thread?  Change the title then.  I an mostly with you.  But, Geeze... What more is there to say if it's just RIP.  So much more to talk about.  Kobe is very controversial.

 

Gotta agree with this.  People say it's not the time.  Well, when is the time - 6 months from now?  Hey, OK - let's talk about that Kobe rape case - NOW is the time!  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, CommonCents said:

You can find the audio transmissions online, were they sped up or was the flight just a few minutes long? Once they were cleared and stopped circling things happened very fast. 

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/video-kobe-bryant-helicopter-audio/535392

 

Flight wasn't that brief.  They cut out the dead space and other pilot transmissions on the same frequency so listeners aren't bored to tears.

 

There's nothing in that transmission about a climb to "go above a layer of clouds" though it could be previous.  The pilot told the Van Nuys tower controller that he was "VFR at 1400" (above sea level) which in controlled airspace is 3 miles visibility and 500 feet below clouds.   Van Nuys is 800 ft MSL (above sea level) so he's saying he's roughly 600 ft above the ground and 500 feet below the reported ceiling (but he hasn't gone a layer of clouds under that scenario).

 

Based upon the interview with the sound engineer in the TWA hat, cloud conditions were lower than that near the crash

He was asking for vfr radar services ("flight following" in pilot lingo) from enroute air traffic control (Center) and being declined on the grounds of being too low for radar to pick him up at the end.   It's not uncommon for Center to be unable to provide radar services to an aircraft that is at a safe altitude above terrain, but below where their radar can pick him up.  Flight following is not navigational guidance or terrain avoidance, it's traffic alerts.

 

Edit:

per NYTimes, last transmission of the pilot (inaudible on above) said he was climbing above a cloud deck.

Aircraft is said to have reached an altitude of 2,300 feet, then began a rapid descending turn to the L/speed increased (that would be consistent with several possible scenarios, including stalling the rotor and losing lift, or loss of control on instruments)

 

The terrain in that immediate area appears to max out at about 1675 ft. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

14 minutes ago, bbb said:

 

Gotta agree with this.  People say it's not the time.  Well, when is the time - 6 months from now?  Hey, OK - let's talk about that Kobe rape case - NOW is the time!  

Yeah... Who knows had it in for him.  Wait for the NTSB investigation.

 

Did somebody pull/unloosen the "Jesus Nut" on the rotor... Plenty of people could have had it in for Kobe... The rape case, his outspoken attitude, etc... Who knows.

 

Just saying.  Ain't going all Lee Harvey... But you never know.  He's THAT controversial.

There is even a song!

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by ExiledInIllinois

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah... Who knows had it in for him.  Wait for the NTSB investigation.

 

Did somebody pull/unloosen the "Jesus Nut" on the rotor... Plenty of people could have had it in for Kobe... The rape case, his outspoken attitude, etc... Who knows.

 

Just saying.  Ain't going all Lee Harvey... But you never know.  He's THAT controversial.

There is even a song!

 

 

OK I will bite.....who had it in for Kobe

 

 

[OZBILLS]

On 1/27/2020 at 7:06 AM, Virgil said:

ESPN finally just reported it. One of the last to do so. 
 

You had one job.....

Wait until the family was told by police?

Might be the only one 

[CommonCents]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/video-kobe-bryant-helicopter-audio/535392

 

Flight wasn't that brief.  They cut out the dead space and other pilot transmissions on the same frequency so listeners aren't bored to tears.

 

There's nothing in that transmission about a climb to "go above a layer of clouds" though it could be previous.  The pilot told the Van Nuys tower controller that he was "VFR at 1400" (above sea level) which in controlled airspace is 3 miles visibility and 500 feet below clouds.   Van Nuys is 800 ft MSL (above sea level) so he's saying he's roughly 600 ft above the ground and 500 feet below the reported ceiling (but he hasn't gone a layer of clouds under that scenario).

 

Based upon the interview with the sound engineer in the TWA hat, conditions were lower than that.

Contrary to the article, it's important to note that under aviation rules, the pilot was NOT receiving "guidance" from air traffic controllers when he crashed.  You flying under VFR, you navigate on your own.

 

He was asking for radar flight following from enroute air traffic control (Center) and being declined on the grounds of being too low for radar to pick him up, when he crashed.   It's not unusual for Center to be unable to provide radar services to an aircraft that is at a safe altitude above terrain, but below where their radar can pick him up.  Flight following is not guidance, they alert you to other aircraft.

 

 

 

 

Thanks I find it interesting and I work for LM and I’m very interested in how the investigation goes.

 

Put all the sadness aside...

 

How invincible do you have to feel to put you and your family in for special approval just to make a high school basketball game?

 

Was the pilot accustomed to flying Kobe around or could this have been his own clutch moment gone terribly bad? 

 

People here say he owned the heli but I read it was owned by a company in IL. 

 

So so very sad but impossible to make sense of it for a commoner like myself. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

OK I will bite.....who had it in for Kobe

 

 

People he had controversy with.  I am just saying.  We are in the age of conspiracy and he wasn't squeaky clean.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

People he had controversy with.  I am just saying.  We are in the age of conspiracy and he wasn't squeaky clean.

Kobe Bryant was WAY more loved then hated.....just look at the world outcry over this.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Kobe Bryant was WAY more loved then hated.....just look at the world outcry over this.

 

 

The guy and his daughter is dead.  Why would people say anything bad.  God bless them.  May they be at peace.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

People he had controversy with.  I am just saying.  We are in the age of conspiracy and he wasn't squeaky clean.

Eh, he hadn't been controversial for a long time. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Eh, he hadn't been controversial for a long time. 

I know it was an accident.  The guy still raped someone.  Well, I believe he did.  What do you want me to say?  There is a special place in... ?  God can still bless him and his daughter.

Edited January 28, 2020 by ExiledInIllinois

[GoBills808]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

I know it was an accident.  The guy still raped someone.  Well, I believe he did.  What do you want me to say?  There is a special place in... ?  God can still bless him and his daughter.

I meant sabotage is pretty unlikely cause of the accident imo

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I meant sabotage is pretty unlikely cause of the accident imo

Yeah... But he did have enemies.

[sherpa]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/video-kobe-bryant-helicopter-audio/535392

 

Flight wasn't that brief.  They cut out the dead space and other pilot transmissions on the same frequency so listeners aren't bored to tears.

 

There's nothing in that transmission about a climb to "go above a layer of clouds" though it could be previous.  The pilot told the Van Nuys tower controller that he was "VFR at 1400" (above sea level) which in controlled airspace is 3 miles visibility and 500 feet below clouds.   Van Nuys is 800 ft MSL (above sea level) so he's saying he's roughly 600 ft above the ground and 500 feet below the reported ceiling (but he hasn't gone a layer of clouds under that scenario).

 

Based upon the interview with the sound engineer in the TWA hat, cloud conditions were lower than that near the crash

He was asking for vfr radar services ("flight following" in pilot lingo) from enroute air traffic control (Center) and being declined on the grounds of being too low for radar to pick him up at the end.   It's not uncommon for Center to be unable to provide radar services to an aircraft that is at a safe altitude above terrain, but below where their radar can pick him up.  Flight following is not navigational guidance or terrain avoidance, it's traffic alerts.

 

 

I don't want to quibble or appear pedantic, but be very careful when you are talking about an accident that isn't even close to being truly started before offering opinions.

First, he is special VFR, which for a helo doesn't even require a mile and clear of clouds, so the altitude stuff is not relevant.

 

That's why he is being held up at the beginning. Without the actual radio transmissions, because they are not on the freqs he is, it is obvious they are clearing IFR traffic in front of him, which takes priority over SVFR, and he is waiting his turn.

They eventually build a hole and send him on his way.

Further, he was not talking to center, ever. They don't work traffic that low. He is talking to various towers and eventually gets handed off to SoCal approach, who never really handles his request for following as he is too low.

 

Maybe wait a while.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Thanks I find it interesting and I work for LM and I’m very interested in how the investigation goes.

Put all the sadness aside...

How invincible do you have to feel to put you and your family in for special approval just to make a high school basketball game?

 

Was the pilot accustomed to flying Kobe around or could this have been his own clutch moment gone terribly bad? 

People here say he owned the heli but I read it was owned by a company in IL. 

So so very sad but impossible to make sense of it for a commoner like myself. 

 

Hi, OK a bit more. 

 

Flying under "special VFR" is not necessarily a big deal for a Heli pilot.   It has to do with federal regulations about visibility and distance from clouds in different classes of controlled airspace - more visibility and cloud clearance are required in airports with a control tower, basically.  Outside the controlled airspace around airports, Helis are allowed to operate in 1/2 mile visibility and "clear of clouds", in recognition of the fact that they can slow down and hover and maneuver easily.  So you ask for an "sVFR clearance" so the controllers can keep an eye on you and keep the planes operating under instrument flight rules and you from swapping paint, and off you go.

 

The FAA even established special VFR routes through the edges of controlled airspace to allow the helicopters defined routes to get out to less-controlled "Indian Country" airspace and do their thing.  Again, pretty routine thing.  That's what the pilot is asking for when he talks to the Burbank controller - I'm unfamiliar, but there must be a charted VFR flyway along a couple of highways where the helicopters normally come and go. 

 

The weather at the two airport control towers the pilot was talking to was not reported as all that bad.  The pilot could have been operating at 600 ft above the ground, which is well clear of light towers and buildings short of skyscrapers, and with 2 1/2 mile visibility.  That's safe weather for a helicopter.  But he still needed a special VFR clearance because the minimum in that type of controlled airspace is 3 miles. 

Here's the flag - the controller is talking about a flight that is "going around".  What that means under instrument flight rules, is that the pilot got to the designated position and altitude where he has to make a decision "am I able to land at this airport, or do I gotta bail?" and said "Nope!  Bail!".  It's called a "missed approach".  Now there are various reasons for this - could be a pilot doing approach training.  Could be a pilot who flew a sloppy approach and got off course.  Or, could be a sign that the weather is variable and the pilot of that aircraft encountered visibility or cloud conditions way lower than what's being reported.   I'd be on the horn asking for a pilot report, me.

 

As someone else commented, when the weather conditions are right, fog can form almost instantaneously.  There can be no fog, then move into a microclime around a river or between sets of hills and Whoooooo! instant white, and as that person pointed out, trying to get below a layer of clouds that goes to the ground is a losing proposition.

But assuming Kobe's helicopter is instrument-equipped, it's also not a big deal.  The pilot realizes he just flew into the soup, he hovers and starts climbing, and he says something like  "Center, Helicopter 72Echo Xray lost visual with the ground near terrain at (position), I'm climbing".   All that movie stuff about Mayday Mayday Emergency Souls on Board is for a situation which will take a while to sort itself out, not for when you're sucking the seat cushion up your butt 'cuz the windscreen just went white and you know there's a hill nearby.  Start climbing and the controllers will treat him as an emergency, move any other aircraft out of his way, provide whatever assistance he needs to be safe, and sort out what happened later.  

Air traffic controllers hate to read about aircraft they've handled being turned into wreckage and they have wide latitude - they can treat you as an emergency without declaring an emergency, they can declare an emergency for you.  The controllers almost certainly know that's Kobe Bryant's helicopter, they are being SUPER polite and helpful in that radio clip.

 

 

 

 

[bbb]

49 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Thanks I find it interesting and I work for LM and I’m very interested in how the investigation goes.

 

Put all the sadness aside...

 

How invincible do you have to feel to put you and your family in for special approval just to make a high school basketball game?

 

Was the pilot accustomed to flying Kobe around or could this have been his own clutch moment gone terribly bad? 

 

People here say he owned the heli but I read it was owned by a company in IL. 

 

So so very sad but impossible to make sense of it for a commoner like myself. 

 

I had read, but who knows what’s true, that this guy was the ONLY guy he let fly him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, sherpa said:

I don't want to quibble or appear pedantic, but be very careful when you are talking about an accident that isn't even close to being truly started before offering opinions.

First, he is special VFR, which for a helo doesn't even require a mile and clear of clouds, so the altitude stuff is not relevant.

 

Negative.  In the published radio transmissions, the Van Nuys tower controller instructs him "advise when you're in VFR conditions or when you're clear of the Class Delta"  Later she asks him "are you transitioning in VFR conditions?" and he affirms "VFR conditions, one thousand five hundred".  At that point he is not sVFR and the altitude clearance from clouds in controlled airspace is relevant per rule - though of course, not necessarily pertinent to the accident.

 

And yes, sVFR requires "clear of clouds" though perhaps you wrote a little bit unclearly and meant "requires clear of clouds but not even a mile vis" or something.

 

My point is that if he was responding to the Van Nuys Tower Controller truthfully (and no reason to think otherwise), conditions at that point were not that bad.  They must have deteriorated rapidly - which of course they can, when conditions are correct for fog.

 

Yeah, the accident investigation will play out over the next year.

 

[Mark92]

I have always had a weird fascination with Kobe Bryant's Career.  I am 40 years old so when he was drafted at 18 straight out of high school I was 17.  I can remember him being drafted like it was yesterday.  I remember him going to the prom with Brandi.  I remember him winning his 1st NBA title at 21 years of age while I was 20 and not at all an adult.  I still can't imagine someone that age doing what he did.  As Kobe aged, became a parent and grew into himself so did I.  He was the first superstar that I got to watch his entire professional career.  When the news hit yesterday for me it wasn't oh my God we lost a legend.  It more, oh my God he was my age and I litterly watched him grow up and now he is gone.  He can't be gone.

As far as some people on here talking about his legal issues, today is not the day to be talking about this. I do however think it should be discussed when his legend is told. My wife is a sexual assault survivor.  It has allowed me to look at these situations through a much different lens then I used to.  No matter what he did or did not do to that young woman does not take away the fact that 9 people lost their lives way too early.  

[John in Jax]

This is just a terrible, terrible tragedy for those families who were directly affected, whether it be a "world famous" basketball player & his daughter, or a middle school girls basketball coach, or a college baseball coach and his wife & daughter. We all must never forget that the only guarantees in this life are death & taxes.

 

As far as the death of an athlete...or musician....or actor....or "famous" person being more "important" than a "regular" person? The media always has, and always will make a huge "over the top" deal out of these celebrities' deaths. SDS made some valid points. It is what it is.

 

OK, so I used to fly in an airplane with 8 engines on it (have over 1000 hours in it), and I was happy about that, since we could lose FIVE and still make it to an emergency runway...with a good pilot/co-pilot, of course! Some really good posts in here about the possible causes of this accident (Thanks Hapless). I also tend to agree that it was pilot error and CFIT.

 

One thing I haven't seen in here is the notion that the pilot may have felt pressure from the folks to get to their destination...what they call "get-there-itis." And I don't mean direct pressure, but more of an unspoken / expected pressure to "let's get there!"  Anyway, the latter is what some experienced helo and small jet pilots are saying on different aviation message boards.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, John in Jax said:

One thing I haven't seen in here is the notion that the pilot may have felt pressure from the folks to get to their destination...what they call "get-there-itis." And I don't mean direct pressure, but more of an unspoken / expected pressure to "let's get there!"  Anyway, the latter is what some experienced helo and small jet pilots are saying on different aviation message boards.

 

I'm sure that's the case.  It's one of the reasons why helicopters have a relatively poor accident rate.  Because of their maneuverability and ability to fly in poor conditions, they've become the go-to transport for critically ill patients as well as celebrities, for example.  Being the go-to transport for a young patient in need of time-critical treatment at a trauma center throws down a legit life-for-life issue - how far do you risk your life and the lives of the medical transport crew?  Being the go-to transport a celebrity uses to get places isn't life or death, but it comes with unstated, very real pressure: he's paying you well to be a reliable means to get him where he wants to go.  If you cancel too many flights, you're no longer that reliable means and either he'll hire someone else to fly him, or he'll find a different transport mode.

 

The thing is pilots have to train to separate that pressure from their decision making process and assessment of flight safety.

[YoloinOhio]

ESPN is showing Kobe’s final game right now 

 

still doesn’t feel real 

[Alphadawg7]

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

ESPN is showing Kobe’s final game right now 

 

still doesn’t feel real 

Thanks for the heads up, watching this now.  And yeah I’m still in disbelief

Edited January 28, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[707BillsFan]

6 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

 

And again so cute.  57 miles from Calabassas to Disneyland in an hour???  You've never been down here have you?   Not that the traffic is great up there but I did get a ticket for doing 85 in a 65 (after hitting my brakes while doing 90) at 5pm on a FRIDAY on the 101 just north of SFO.  

 

And seeing I've lived in both SoCal and NorCal the Northerners win the annoying trophy...by far.   

here it is again ... 

[Augie]

I’m no expert about LA traffic, but a friend moved to Atlanta from Florida. I look at Waze right now and it tells me 29 minutes to his house. He urged me to come up on a Friday afternoon (extenuating circumstances - I knew better, BUT) and it took an hour and 45 minutes to get back.  If I had a helicopter available I would have used it. 

[Process]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

ESPN is showing Kobe’s final game right now 

 

still doesn’t feel real 

I caught the 4th quarter. Never saw the game before. Holy **** what a perfect way to end his career. He was so clutch the last five minutes, leading the comeback.

 

Every time they show his family though it's like a punch in the gut. 

 

Also this is one of the coolest things you'll ever see in sports. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Process

[Chef Jim]

57 minutes ago, 707BillsFan said:

here it is again ... 

And here’s this again. Calabasas to Disneyland in an hour?  Bwahahaha!!  

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

And here’s this again. Calabasas to Disneyland in an hour?  Bwahahaha!!  

not sure how anyone can throw up google maps directions and claim accuracy. I’m gonna go ahead and trust you over anyone in 707

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

not sure how anyone can throw up google maps directions and claim accuracy. I’m gonna go ahead and trust you over anyone in 707

The 5 from OC through LA can be a horrible drive. I guess you could always take the 405 through the Sepulveda pass.....wait. Never mind. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

1 hour ago, Process said:

I caught the 4th quarter. Never saw the game before. Holy **** what a perfect way to end his career. He was so clutch the last five minutes, leading the comeback.

 

Every time they show his family though it's like a punch in the gut. 

 

Also this is one of the coolest things you'll ever see in sports. 

interesting that Hayward disputes that he did this on purpose. It seems though like he almost had to do it on purpose, otherwise it’s the worst lane violation in NBA history. 
 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2020/01/27/gordon-hayward-disputes-intentionally-aided-kobe-bryant-scoring-points-his-final-game/VumtHsw1sIRXYMoVG7ZyMJ/story.html

 

[Process]

11 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

interesting that Hayward disputes that he did this on purpose. It seems though like he almost had to do it on purpose, otherwise it’s the worst lane violation in NBA history. 
 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2020/01/27/gordon-hayward-disputes-intentionally-aided-kobe-bryant-scoring-points-his-final-game/VumtHsw1sIRXYMoVG7ZyMJ/story.html

 

It definitely looks intentional. Respect either way I guess, either for doing it or admitting that he didn't. 

[Captain Hindsight]

17 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

This story hit me hard.  First, I lost my dog named Kobe after 10 1/2 years of having him.  Saved him 1 hour before they were going to put him down too just because he had been at the kennel 3 weeks.  
 

Never thought we would be saying goodbye to the guy I named him after just 2 months later.  But that’s not really what got me...it was hearing about his daughter being in there and the other young girls and parents on board.

 

I was 18 years old and my brother was a day away from turning 7 when my father was murdered and he was about the same age as Kobe.  It’s hard losing a parent so young, especially when they are so close to you.  Heart breaks for his wife and other daughters who will all have different levels of grief as well as the families of the other souls lost.  
 

My brother was 7, so it hit him differently as he mostly grew up just not remembering him as well given he was pretty young.  I had to learn how to be a man fast and deal with one of my biggest hero’s, motivators and inspirations being gone at the same time.
 

Coincidentally, that was November 1994, and he was a massive 49er fan.  That’s is why to this day that was the only year I ever rooted for the 49ers to win the Super Bowl, and that was the last time they won it...a few months later behind Steve Young.  
 

Now 25 years later the Niners are back in the SB and I will be once again rooting for them for the first time since in honor of him.  And in my $100 per square SB Pool I ran, I bought 2 squares.  One says “Kobe” which was originally in honor of my dog but now has much deeper meaning...and the other was the 94th square and has my dads name on it.  

 

Last night went to Lakers HQ for the Kobe vigil and was honored to pay tribute and leave a message on the canvas tribute wall they put up with his pic to be signed.  Got to thank him for all the memories and most importantly the inspiration myself and so many others have taken away from his work ethics and most importantly dedication to his kids and family.

I'm so sorry to hear about all your loss. Thank you for sharing I know how difficult that can be

[T&C]

This article is from earlier this morning:

 

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/ap-online/2020/01/28/pilot-of-bryant-helicopter-tried-to-avoid-heavy-fog

 

What really caught my eye was this part:

 

"Details of what followed are still under investigation but there are indications that the helicopter plunged some 1,000 feet (305 meters). It was flying at about 184 mph (296 kph) and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute when it struck the ground, according to data from Flightradar24."

 

That strikes me as an insane rate of speed in foggy conditions.

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, T&C said:

This article is from earlier this morning:

 

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/ap-online/2020/01/28/pilot-of-bryant-helicopter-tried-to-avoid-heavy-fog

 

What really caught my eye was this part:

 

"Details of what followed are still under investigation but there are indications that the helicopter plunged some 1,000 feet (305 meters). It was flying at about 184 mph (296 kph) and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute when it struck the ground, according to data from Flightradar24."

 

That strikes me as an insane rate of speed in foggy conditions.

 

I would be very wary of that data, and it is a insane rate of decent.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

interesting that Hayward disputes that he did this on purpose. It seems though like he almost had to do it on purpose, otherwise it’s the worst lane violation in NBA history. 
 

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2020/01/27/gordon-hayward-disputes-intentionally-aided-kobe-bryant-scoring-points-his-final-game/VumtHsw1sIRXYMoVG7ZyMJ/story.html

 

because you obviously don’t say “yea I took a violation in order to make sure the opponent hit a symbolic threshold.”

 

it’s disrespectful to your own team but more importantly tarnishes the actual gesture. You just let it go unsaid.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

57 minutes ago, T&C said:

This article is from earlier this morning:

 

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/ap-online/2020/01/28/pilot-of-bryant-helicopter-tried-to-avoid-heavy-fog

 

What really caught my eye was this part:

 

"Details of what followed are still under investigation but there are indications that the helicopter plunged some 1,000 feet (305 meters). It was flying at about 184 mph (296 kph) and descending at a rate of more than 4,000 feet per minute when it struck the ground, according to data from Flightradar24."

 

That strikes me as an insane rate of speed in foggy conditions.

 

It was almost certainly unintentional. 

 

From the latest that came out, just before the crash the pilot radioed ATC that he's climbing to get above a cloud layer.  Right there that alerts air traffic control that something is wrong, since a VFR flight does not climb through clouds.  ATC will start treating the flight as a potential emergency - looking for it, looking to see if they need to divert other traffic away from it.

 

As a helicopter pilot said in the article " The aircraft’s speed “means he was completely out of control and in a dive,” Waldman said.  

 

There are two most common causes of this in aircraft accidents.  One is that the pilot was unable to get on his instruments and lost control of the craft.  He was an experienced instrument rated pilot and the chopper was apparently equipped for instrument flight.  One thing the FAA will look at is how current was he on instruments - had he practiced recently?  and was he proficient on instruments in helicopters? which is harder than instruments in planes.  By all accounts, this guy (RIP) was an experienced pilot in a well-equipped craft, this shouldn't happen.  And by the witness testimony, he was apparently controlling the chopper in clouds when first heard, and successfully climbed under control.  But loss of control due to instrument failure or pilot error is still possible; pilots can be oriented initially then be hit with vertigo or lose an instrument or get distracted and lose control.

 

The other thing that causes loss of control/high rate of descent is an unrecovered aerodynamic stall (has nothing to do with engines).  If the pilot suddenly realized he was away from the freeway and in terrain and "awsh**!" put the craft in a maximal climb knowing their lives were at stake, he could have pushed it too hard aerodynamically.  Helicopters have something called a "retreating blade stall" where the left side of the rotor, where the blades are moving backwards, exceeds its critical angle of attack and stops producing lift while the right side (blades moving forward) is still lifting.  Without prompt pilot recovery, this will send the helicopter turning to the left and sideways initially.  My understanding is this sort of stall can be difficult to recover from, because of the fact that one side of the rotor is still lifting.  If the aircraft was in a maximal climb just beforehand  that maximal power may now be working with gravity instead of against it.

Stall recovery with clear visibility is one thing.  Pilots train for this.  Stall recovery on instruments in a cloud where he knows he's near terrain, that's far more difficult.

 

The witness quoted upthread made it sound like a controlled flight into terrain incident where the pilot didn't know terrain was there and the chopper was flying normally until it went into a hill. If the last radar return is correct, the pilot was actually above (2300 ft) the terrain on the contour map I found of the site (1675 feet).

 

The debris field from the start matched up with a loss of control scenario, and the radar info on left turn and high rate of descent is consistent with the debris field.

 

RIP

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

I would be very wary of that data, and it is a insane rate of decent.

 

Yeah, if it's just a couple of blips from a radar far away it can be faulty and the absolute number can be wrong.  But the pattern (climb followed by left turn and high rate of descent) probably isn't.  There's a lot of radar in that area, I'm sure they're working to put together radar from multiple sites.

[Royale with Cheese]

Bear Bryant and Kobe Bryant both died on January 26th.....37 years apart.

[Seasons1992]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

The witness quoted upthread made it sound like a controlled flight into terrain incident where the pilot didn't know terrain was there and the chopper was flying normally until it went into a hill. If the last radar return is correct, the pilot was actually above (2300 ft) the terrain on the contour map I found of the site (1675 feet).

 

The debris field from the start matched up with a loss of control scenario, and the radar info on left turn and high rate of descent is consistent with the debris field.

 

RIP

 

 

As someone who is for some reason, fascinated with studying air-vehicle crashes and the causes, I believe initially this was 100% pilot error based on the debris field and the reported speed. I think he was disoriented and lost visual markers for the hillsides.

[Foxx]

https://twitter.com/ringer/status/1221955558590140416

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Seasons1992 said:

As someone who is for some reason, fascinated with studying air-vehicle crashes and the causes, I believe initially this was 100% pilot error based on the debris field and the reported speed. I think he was disoriented and lost visual markers for the hillsides.

 

It's almost 100% going to be ruled pilot error of the sort described in accident reports as "PIC (pilot-in-command) decision to continue VFR (visual flight rules) flight into IMC (instrument meteorological conditions)." 

 

But that statement simply begs other questions.  The pilot was instrument rated; he had demonstrated he knew how to control an aircraft using instruments.  Unlike the LAPD choppers (and many others), this helicopter is said to have been equipped for instrument flight.  So he had the skill, and the equipment, to control the chopper by reference to instruments. 

 

According to the interview with the TWA hat guy, he couldn't see the chopper so it was moving above him in the clouds at a controlled, slow rate of speed and per radar, made an ascent just prior to the final left turn and rapid descent.  That would argue the pilot was, in fact, controlling the chopper by reference to instruments prior to the crash.

 

Now that can change - instrument can fail (though pilots train to cross-check and use different combinations), pilot can develop vertigo - but it begs the question of why.