Allen slammed on ESPN

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, kbarrettb said:

Tre took back an interception to the what 17 yard line and we got 3 points.

 

You just lost all credibility. After that interception we ran on 6 straight plays before kicking the field goal. Allen didn't pass the ball once. The next time we were in the red zone we threw once on 3rd and 8 and it was a game winning touchdown. If you want people to take you seriously, take the extra 30 seconds to do some research.

[freddyjj]

29 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

He's sort of like the anti-Allen. They both move the ball well, and they both get the ball in the end zone. Jameis, however, doesn't seem to care at all about taking care of the football. Never has.

slippery mitts cuz he ain't got no napkins eating those stolen crabs legs and all those Ws - LOL - a true coach killer QB - that is Jameis!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

43 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I'm not putting much into Saturday's game. BB eats young QBs for breakfast, and he's fielding his best pass defense ever and playing at home. I hope Allen plays well, but I won't be upset if he doesn't have a great game. Few do up there. 

 

I want to see progress from the first NE game, the Ravens game, and now the Steelers game.  But these things are seldom linear.

 

43 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Literally every team has multiple drops almost every game. As I said elsewhere, I watched the Niners/Atlanta game, and both teams had at least 3 drops. It's part of the game. 

 

It's true that every team has multiple drops every game, Dave, but assuming those scoring them use consistent criteria, the Bills legit have more.  They are leading the league in drops.  Allen has literally more than twice the drop % of Winston, Jackson, Wilson, Brees, or Stafford.  He's got 50% higher rate than Mahomes.  And these are scored conservatively, not as "high degree of difficulty but catchable balls"

Our starting TE, a position is traditionally counted on as one of the sure-handed "check down" options, is literally dropping 1 out of 5 targets (20% drop rate) which is a big factor in his 58% catch %.  An average TE has a drop % of <5% and a catch % in the high 60s, 68-69%.  A top TE is mid-70s to 80s.  I don't want to rag on Dawson Knox, he has less experience actually catching balls and he's made some brilliant catches.  He, too, needs to take a big step if he's going to make it in the league.  He seems like a great guy so I hope he does.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I want to see progress from the first NE game, the Ravens game, and now the Steelers game.  But these things are seldom linear.

 

 

It's true that every team has multiple drops every game, Dave, but assuming those scoring them use consistent criteria, the Bills legit have more.  They are leading the league in drops.  Allen has literally more than twice the drop % of Winston, Jackson, Wilson, Brees, or Stafford.  He's got 50% higher rate than Mahomes.  And these are scored conservatively, not as "high degree of difficulty but catchable balls"

Our starting TE, a position is traditionally counted on as one of the sure-handed "check down" options, is literally dropping 1 out of 5 targets (20% drop rate) which is a big factor in his 58% catch %.  An average TE has a drop % of <5% and a catch % in the high 60s, 68-69%.  A top TE is mid-70s to 80s.  I don't want to rag on Dawson Knox, he has less experience actually catching balls and he's made some brilliant catches.  He, too, needs to take a big step if he's going to make it in the league.  He seems like a great guy so I hope he does.

 

 

Knox's hands are a real problem. Not arguing with that. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I actually like the show highly questionable, think it's entertaining. 

 

Key word being entertaining, if you're watching the show for actual sports knowledge you're in the wrong place

 

Its a show that is hot takes, the host is a modern day shock jock

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Knox's hands are a real problem. Not arguing with that. 

 

It's not just Knox.  Beasley was signed to be the sure-handed slot guy.  Last year as a pure slot guy, he had a drop % of 1.1%.  He wanted an expanded route tree, and he's gotten it - but his drop rate is a not-horrid but no-longer-elite 6.4%.  He is 100% whiffing on some balls he should bring in.  It may be an adjustment thing where he and Allen practice and Allen's passes have some touch, but then in games, under pressure, Allen takes off the touch and turns up the pepper.

[kbarrettb]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Now let’s pick a game where he 4 picks.  Terrible game,  right?

 

Quit while you’re behind.

I wasn’t saying he is a good quarterback. But to make fun of Winston as a bad fantasy qb weak sauce. 

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not just Knox.  Beasley was signed to be the sure-handed slot guy.  Last year as a pure slot guy, he had a drop % of 1.1%.  He wanted an expanded route tree, and he's gotten it - but his drop rate is a not-horrid but no-longer-elite 6.4%.  He is 100% whiffing on some balls he should bring in.  It may be an adjustment thing where he and Allen practice and Allen's passes have some touch, but then in games, under pressure, Allen takes off the touch and turns up the pepper.

One thing re: the Bills drop rate that should be factored in is the velocity on his throws. It's simply higher than every other QB's, and it's going to result in some drops.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, kbarrettb said:

I wasn’t saying he is a good quarterback. But to make fun of Winston as a bad fantasy qb weak sauce. 

I’m not sure you know what you’re saying at this point.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

One thing re: the Bills drop rate that should be factored in is the velocity on his throws. It's simply higher than every other QB's, and it's going to result in some drops.

link pls

 

[xsoldier54]

It's ESPN.  "Nuff said.

[london_bills]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not just Knox.  Beasley was signed to be the sure-handed slot guy.  Last year as a pure slot guy, he had a drop % of 1.1%.  He wanted an expanded route tree, and he's gotten it - but his drop rate is a not-horrid but no-longer-elite 6.4%.  He is 100% whiffing on some balls he should bring in.  It may be an adjustment thing where he and Allen practice and Allen's passes have some touch, but then in games, under pressure, Allen takes off the touch and turns up the pepper.

Beasleys attitude annoys me but I'm open to being wrong. When a ball from allen was incomplete he was huffing but maybe the team needs that. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, kbarrettb said:

I wasn’t saying he is a good quarterback. But to make fun of Winston as a bad fantasy qb weak sauce. 

 

You misunderstand.  I'm not making fun of Winston as a bad fantasy QB.  Quite the contrary.

 

What "explains a lot" means is that choosing a QB according to his value as a great fantasy player may be interfering with the ability to assess a QB according to the football values that win games. 

 

 

[PatsFanNH]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You misunderstand.  I'm not making fun of Winston as a bad fantasy QB.  Quite the contrary.

 

What "explains a lot" means is that choosing a QB according to his value as a great fantasy player may be interfering with the ability to assess a QB according to the football values that win games. 

 

 

Tell you how fantasy numbers are useless, Winston has a very good chance of being unsigned by the bucs after this year.. he is way way to reckless with the ball. 

[HardyBoy]

You guys know they're trolling bills fans right? Both HQ and the radio show are intentional parodies.

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Troll Toll said:

Yeah, just look at how “global cooling” turned into “global warming” turned into “climate change”.

Or the pope admitting that a lot of priest did in fact wanna get into the boys ?. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, london_bills said:

Beasleys attitude annoys me but I'm open to being wrong. When a ball from allen was incomplete he was huffing but maybe the team needs that. 

 

The nicest thing I heard about Beasley was that after the Ravens game, when Allen was sitting by himself on a stool in the locker room (doubtless stiffening up and starting to hurt physically as well as mentally), waiting to face the press, Beasley went over and hugged him.

 

The worst thing I've seen from Beasley was in one of the early games, when Josh threw a deep incompletion to Brown (I think) but Beasley was open, he took off his helmet while he was still on the field and threw it (could have cost us a 15 yd penalty, I believe?).   Josh sort of brushed it off, saying "he's a competitor, he wants the ball, he wants to win, I'm the same way" but you could really tell a difference in the things he said about John Brown vs. the things he said about Cole Beasley, who he had more trust and rappore with.

 

Lately though, Josh seems warmer about Beas, said he works incredibly hard and praised his route running chops.

[jrober38]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not just Knox.  Beasley was signed to be the sure-handed slot guy.  Last year as a pure slot guy, he had a drop % of 1.1%.  He wanted an expanded route tree, and he's gotten it - but his drop rate is a not-horrid but no-longer-elite 6.4%.  He is 100% whiffing on some balls he should bring in.  It may be an adjustment thing where he and Allen practice and Allen's passes have some touch, but then in games, under pressure, Allen takes off the touch and turns up the pepper.

 

I don't see how a different route tree would result in an increase in his drops by 500%. 

 

I do think you're onto something saying Josh sometimes throws the ball harder than he needs to.

 

Very interesting data. 

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The nicest thing I heard about Beasley was that after the Ravens game, when Allen was sitting by himself on a stool in the locker room (doubtless stiffening up and starting to hurt physically as well as mentally), waiting to face the press, Beasley went over and hugged him.

 

The worst thing I've seen from Beasley was in one of the early games, when Josh threw a deep incompletion to Brown (I think) but Beasley was open, he took off his helmet while he was still on the field and threw it (could have cost us a 15 yd penalty, I believe?).   Josh sort of brushed it off, saying "he's a competitor, he wants the ball, he wants to win, I'm the same way" but you could really tell a difference in the things he said about John Brown vs. the things he said about Cole Beasley, who he had more trust and rappore with.

 

Lately though, Josh seems warmer about Beas, said he works incredibly hard and praised his route running chops.

 

I think this was the Brown's game. Last offensive play of the game, Allen threw up a 50/50 ball to Brown down the right sideline and Beasley was wide open in the left flat for a first down.

 

I think Beasley needs to accept that he has a young QB who is going to make mistakes. He's not getting any younger and it might be hard to be patient, but working with Josh on how they can collectively improve seems like the best option for everyone involved. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by jrober38

[John from Riverside]

I might be totally off on this but I think because Josh doesnt want to throw a interception he "turns on the pepper"

 

The faster the ball travels through the air.....the less likely a defender can come back and make a play on the ball

 

Give him hands catches that can catch the pepper.......Elway ALSO did this

[Hapless Bills Fan]

40 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

One thing re: the Bills drop rate that should be factored in is the velocity on his throws. It's simply higher than every other QB's, and it's going to result in some drops.

 

I'd be interested in some actual metrics on this?

 

I don't think Allen is very sophisticated with touch yet, and that doubtless does make his balls more challenging, but in games (not when trying to throw as hard as possible) I'd like to see some hard evidence that his velocity is "higher than every other QBs" and that it's a factor in the drops.

 

Counter points:

1) John Brown was asked about this and he said basically, after Spring OTAs he went home and turned up the Juggs machine to the max and started working to adjust.  Other QBs in the history of the NFL throw hard, and if WR want to catch for these guys, they got to adjust.

2) the balls Knox seems to drop are not usually the high DOD bullets that come whipping at him, they're the softer, "gimme" throws, and his mechanism of dropping seems to be the ol' "turn head to look upfield before catch is complete" trick

 

 

[london_bills]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The nicest thing I heard about Beasley was that after the Ravens game, when Allen was sitting by himself on a stool in the locker room (doubtless stiffening up and starting to hurt physically as well as mentally), waiting to face the press, Beasley went over and hugged him.

 

The worst thing I've seen from Beasley was in one of the early games, when Josh threw a deep incompletion to Brown (I think) but Beasley was open, he took off his helmet while he was still on the field and threw it (could have cost us a 15 yd penalty, I believe?).   Josh sort of brushed it off, saying "he's a competitor, he wants the ball, he wants to win, I'm the same way" but you could really tell a difference in the things he said about John Brown vs. the things he said about Cole Beasley, who he had more trust and rappore with.

 

Lately though, Josh seems warmer about Beas, said he works incredibly hard and praised his route running chops.

Yeah interesting. I heard about the helmet thing with beasley earlier in the season but never saw it. The dallas game was made to be about beasley and seems to go against the process thing a little bit but like I say it's not nessesarily a bad thing having someone who wants better and shows it. The last thing Allen or the bills really want is receivers throwing their arms up once a deep ball is incomplete but its also understandable from their perspective. I mean they are right to an extent but I like how Allen is dealing with these things. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I might be totally off on this but I think because Josh doesnt want to throw a interception he "turns on the pepper"

 

The faster the ball travels through the air.....the less likely a defender can come back and make a play on the ball

 

Give him hands catches that can catch the pepper.......Elway ALSO did this

 

It varies.  There are times when the "pepper" is needed - that first throw of the Stillers game to Knox being an example.

 

There are other times when the "pepper" is counter-productive and a softer ball thrown with some touch would be safer - for example some of the dump-off throws near the LOS that are going towards the sideline - they get tipped or batted when Allen tries to laser them out there (and that makes them more pickable), but a touch throw with a little arc would be "money"

[wppete]

All the National media is slamming Josh Allen and the Offense. It’s hilarious, they are all idiots.

[ComradeKayAdams]

Dan Le Bastard is fat.

 

< mic drops to floor>

[Buffalo Junction]

37 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd be interested in some actual metrics on this?

 

I don't think Allen is very sophisticated with touch yet, and that doubtless does make his balls more challenging, but in games (not when trying to throw as hard as possible) I'd like to see some hard evidence that his velocity is "higher than every other QBs" and that it's a factor in the drops.

 

Counter points:

1) John Brown was asked about this and he said basically, after Spring OTAs he went home and turned up the Juggs machine to the max and started working to adjust.  Other QBs in the history of the NFL throw hard, and if WR want to catch for these guys, they got to adjust.

2) the balls Knox seems to drop are not usually the high DOD bullets that come whipping at him, they're the softer, "gimme" throws, and his mechanism of dropping seems to be the ol' "turn head to look upfield before catch is complete" trick

 

 

Knox seems to do better when he doesn’t have time to think. It doesn’t seem to matter if that’s due to pass interference or a rocket ball. That’s why I have high hopes for the kid. The talent is there. Just needs to improve his blocking and let the game slow down. 

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

What many people don't is the Bill's offense does not have one offense player that was a first round besides Allen.  They praise our defense what do you expect when you a unit that has 6 players starting that was selected in the first round.  When Bill's start getting Allen some more play makers watch out because the kid has done more with talent he has been given then alot of people given him credit for.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd be interested in some actual metrics on this?

 

I don't think Allen is very sophisticated with touch yet, and that doubtless does make his balls more challenging, but in games (not when trying to throw as hard as possible) I'd like to see some hard evidence that his velocity is "higher than every other QBs" and that it's a factor in the drops.

 

Counter points:

1) John Brown was asked about this and he said basically, after Spring OTAs he went home and turned up the Juggs machine to the max and started working to adjust.  Other QBs in the history of the NFL throw hard, and if WR want to catch for these guys, they got to adjust.

2) the balls Knox seems to drop are not usually the high DOD bullets that come whipping at him, they're the softer, "gimme" throws, and his mechanism of dropping seems to be the ol' "turn head to look upfield before catch is complete" trick

 

 

Well, as far as I know, no one has ever been clocked at a higher velocity than his senior bowl number (66+ mph -- https://www.stack.com/a/josh-allen-threw-a-66-14-mph-pass-at-the-senior-bowl-no-qb-at-the-nfl-combine-has-ever-exceeded-60 ), and it's pretty obvious he lets it rip out there. I think that his first throw in the Pittsburgh game would have been a pick if thrown by virtually any other qb in the league. So, no metrics, but a healthy does of common sense combined with eyeball observations. A lot of his throws are blazing. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Well, as far as I know, no one has ever been clocked at a higher velocity than his senior bowl number (68 mph), and it's pretty obvious he lets it rip out there. I think that his first throw in the Pittsburgh game would have been a pick if thrown by virtually any other qb in the league. So, no metrics, but a healthy does of common sense combined with eyeball observations. A lot of his throws are blazing. 

 

Fair.  But every throw isn't blazing.  I think attributing his higher drop % to "throwing faster than any other QB" is probably simplistic.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair.  But every throw isn't blazing.  I think attributing his higher drop % to "throwing faster than any other QB" is probably simplistic.

He throws more on-a-rope blazers on average than any QB I've ever watched. That's not a criticism! I love that aspect of his game.  But they are going to be harder to catch. That's just basic common sense (or just ask Zay Jones). 

Edited December 19, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

I don't see how a different route tree would result in an increase in his drops by 500%. 

 

I didn't want to go into it because I'm not done (and might not finish, I do this for fun after all) but I think there is a certain family of throws he is used to catching and is fiercely good at, and others that he has not been asked to make before (or maybe since college) and is not good at, maybe "not good at yet" if he's as fierce a competitor as they say.  I think Dak, having alternatives last year, only made the throws to Bease where he is absolutely "money" (giving him a lower than previous drop %).  This year, he's getting throws all over the field.

 

I really don't care for turning low sample sizes into a percentage to sound impressive.  The facts are, he scored as 1 drop on 87 targets last year and has scored as 6 drops on 94 targets this year.   That's not an unusual of drops by WR standards, it's just higher than the normally sure handed Beasley had the last couple years.

 

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

I think this was the Brown's game. Last offensive play of the game, Allen threw up a 50/50 ball to Brown down the right sideline and Beasley was wide open in the left flat for a first down.

 

Negative on several counts.

 

It was a game in October - I think the first Miami game - Beasley scored a TD later in the game and the announcers made some crack about "he's not throwing his helmet now"

 

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

I think Beasley needs to accept that he has a young QB who is going to make mistakes. He's not getting any younger and it might be hard to be patient, but working with Josh on how they can collectively improve seems like the best option for everyone involved. 

 

I imagine like most human relationships it has its ups and downs.  There is no reason to think they don't work hard on improving together.

[BuffaloBills1998]

You do know these guys especially the one in the middle

is a huge Miami Dolphins fan, of course their gonna bash Allen and the Bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, kbarrettb said:

Completion percentage means more. And lately he hasn’t completed nearly enough passes. They are winning sure but not because of Allen. Tre took back an interception to the what 17 yard line and we got 3 points. That’s not going to win you a game in the playoffs. 

 

*blink* 

 

1) did you just say that completion percentage means more than 5 TD? your response to @JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS " Idc if Josh has 50 yards a game passing, if those 50 yards result in 5 TDs. "  Seriously, did you just say that?

 

2) someone else already pointed out that on that drive after the Tre White interception, no passes were called, complete or incomplete

[JaCrispy]

10 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Start at 6:13. This is some of the most vehement hate for Allen I've seen. Methinks this should find its way to Josh...

 

 

Absolutely ridiculous!

I think they go a little too far in trying to be funny but I get where they are coming from...

 

I, too, am at the point where I still don’t trust JA...and just when I think he might be getting there he always seems to do things that continue to hold the team back from being great...If he was a top 15 QB this team would be a super bowl contender...

 

Now, I’m not saying he can’t get there...but at this point in time, it is what it is, if I’m being honest.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

What many people don't is the Bill's offense does not have one offense player that was a first round besides Allen.  They praise our defense what do you expect when you a unit that has 6 players starting that was selected in the first round.  When Bill's start getting Allen some more play makers watch out because the kid has done more with talent he has been given then alot of people given him credit for.

this upcoming draft will have some real talent at wr. beane will hook JA up. 

[dayman]

Those guys aren't terribly wrong

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

No idea who these guys are. But all three of them have misshaped heads.

[RaoulDuke79]

4 minutes ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

No idea who these guys are. But all three of them have misshaped heads.

Lebetard got a bulbous Mr. Potato head looking dome.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

..ESPN does need a MAJOR shakeup......I'd start with hiring Whoopi and Joy for SportsCenter......ratings would soar......

[Billsfan1972]

And again as a casual observer from outside, one sees <150 yards in each of the last two games and NO 300 yard games.....

 

As Bills fans we point to the 4th quarter comebacks & I wonder if he can look so good on so many drives & leading the team back, why are the coaches PETRIFIED to do it the whole game.

 

When  McD claims 17 points isn't enough, but the strategy & play calling is exactly that (ball control, no mistakes, bleed the clock, run 6 X's in a row inside the opponents 20, celebrate running out the clock & 1 first down with all your timeouts, play for a 53 fg to tie the game, kick the ball back twice last week to Pitt in the last 5 minutes) the eye test states otherwise & the national media thinks that the QB is meh at best.

 

Oh & btw giving the offense little weapons the last three years hasn't helped either.

 

All D all the time.......

Edited December 19, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And again as a casual observer from outside, one sees <150 yards in each of the last two games and NO 300 yard games.....

 

As Bills fans we point to the 4th quarter comebacks & I wonder if he can look so good on so many drives & leading the team back, why are the coaches PETRIFIED to do it the whole game.

 

When  McD claims 17 points isn't enough, but the strategy & play calling is exactly that (ball control, no mistakes, bleed the clock, run 6 X's in a row inside the opponents 20, celebrate running out the clock & 1 first down with all your timeouts, play for a 53 fg to tie the game, kick the ball back twice last week to Pitt in the last 5 minutes) the eye test states otherwise & the national media thinks that the QB is meh at best.

 

Oh & btw giving the offense little weapons the last three years hasn't helped either.

 

All D all the time.......

10-4 record.  In the playoffs.  Defense wins championships.  

 

If you are so hurt over the 300 yard crap root for a college team that runs a spread offense and leave the Bills and their fans alone.