Mr. WEO Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 20/20 hindsight says "pick Will Fuller'..or "trade down". That 1,2,3 draft of Lawson, Ragland (11 ahead of Deion Jones) and Washington was brutal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Joe Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: 20/20 hindsight says "pick Will Fuller'..or "trade down". That 1,2,3 draft of Lawson, Ragland (11 ahead of Deion Jones) and Washington was brutal.. Three starters “right off the bus“ according to Whales... I will say though that Lawson was picked around where most of the “experts” had him before the draft that year... Didn’t seem a reach at the time.. Edited December 3, 2019 by Aussie Joe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, matter2003 said: I'd say he is the beneficiary of the scheme where they have a lot of movement that create free lanes for him to slide through, especially as of late. I don't see him being as effective in other schemes which routinely require him to beat his man one on one. He's having a very good season, simple as that. Probably our best lineman so far this season. No need to try to discredit his performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blacklabel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 They made the right call on the 5th year option. We all like how he's playing this season but obviously it makes people wonder where this kind of play has been in past seasons. I've also noticed most of his sacks are usually due to coverage. He's a decent player in their rotation and I'm sure they'll offer him a modest contract but being that he plays a high demand position there'll probably be a team out there that overpays for him and we know Beane doesn't do bidding wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 To me, it is pretty obvious why they didn’t. The question now is, is his performance increase this season an actual buy in to the team concepts, or is it a motivation for money, it certainly can be both of these things at the same time. Imo the team will resign him if his ego doesn’t get in the way. Go Bills!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Freddie's Dead said: No. Shaq showed nothing in his first 3 years here to justify the option. Good decision at the time. And, even if the Bills successfully resign Shaq, it won't be for the top money that the 5th year designation brings. Shaq may well get paid, but not at the top tier of edge guys. imho....he is a middle/bottom tier....legit NFL, but not elite. But, we didn't see that even until year 4, so Shaq is peaking in his contract year. I think, in the current administration, that attitude plays a roll in the Bills decisions as well. And, with his on field antics, its hard to judge what McD thinks of him on the score. (other than he puts him on the field) Edited December 3, 2019 by bigK14094 Additional thought added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 33 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said: Three starters “right off the bus“ according to Whales... I will say though that Lawson was picked around where most of the “experts” had him before the draft that year... Didn’t seem a reach at the time.. For those shorting the XFL....they are in good hands. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 No. I think it was a good move to decline the option. Some team is going to overpay him hopefully not the Bills. I think drafting a DE in the 1st round is in play. Signing a FA WR to pair up with Brown I hope is in the cards. Regarding Jordan Phillips, I'd let him walk too. He's good and having a nice season but is going to command so much money. I think prudent moves are to re-sign Liuget and Vincent Taylor and extend either Milano and/or Dawkins. Tre White will be priority next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 He still - STILL - looks out of shape to me. How many other EDGE rushers do you see with a beer gut? I'm glad he's playing with a bit more suddenness this year but it was absolutely the right call not to exercise the option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 58 minutes ago, klos63 said: He's having a very good season, simple as that. Probably our best lineman so far this season. No need to try to discredit his performance. I agree he is, but have you not been watching the last 2 or 3 games where half of the plays he is making is because the O-Line completely turns him loose without blocking him at all? I mean, yes he still has been making plays in the normal fashion where he beats his guy, but it's a lot easier to make plays when you are being blocked by air. The thing I worry about is that he is not going to make enough plays once O-Lines adjust and he has a blocker on him at all times again. At least enough plays to justify the contract he will be given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said: No. I think it was a good move to decline the option. Some team is going to overpay him hopefully not the Bills. I think drafting a DE in the 1st round is in play. Signing a FA WR to pair up with Brown I hope is in the cards. Regarding Jordan Phillips, I'd let him walk too. He's good and having a nice season but is going to command so much money. I think prudent moves are to re-sign Liuget and Vincent Taylor and extend either Milano and/or Dawkins. Tre White will be priority next year. We have $91M in cap space going into the offseason. The 4th most in the entire league. We can afford to throw $10M-12M/year at Phillips and not even sweat it. It's nice that we get Harry back, but I dont like what little I've seen from Liuget, and dont want to downgrade out Interior DL just to save Pegula money (that we have to spend anyways). We can sign our DL guys, and a few FAs, AND still get extensions done with our own players. In Beane I Trust. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said: No. I think it was a good move to decline the option. Some team is going to overpay him hopefully not the Bills. I think drafting a DE in the 1st round is in play. Signing a FA WR to pair up with Brown I hope is in the cards. Regarding Jordan Phillips, I'd let him walk too. He's good and having a nice season but is going to command so much money. I think prudent moves are to re-sign Liuget and Vincent Taylor and extend either Milano and/or Dawkins. Tre White will be priority next year. Imo, fwiw, we should keep Phillips, and dump Murphy, and Kroft , we don’t want to break up the band so to speak, these guys are playing well together and we don’t want to have to wait for a revamped group to gel with each other, it ain’t that easy to “just Sign “ someone that is good, lots of competition for good players. Go Bills!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I like the PO'ed version of Shaq and I trust the team will make the right decision whatever that may be but man, why is he so slow off the snap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 No hindsight needed, he's not worth the $9.5 million 5th year option. I think his best comp would be someone like William Gholston who signed for about $5.5 million avg. Maybe Shaq gets something in the $6 mil/yr range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, bmur66 said: I like the PO'ed version of Shaq and I trust the team will make the right decision whatever that may be but man, why is he so slow off the snap? Better for containing that outside edge? We'll find out this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: No he had shown no growth for 3 seasons. I recently heard Chris Brown strongly implying that the organization was not impressed with his dedication to football after last season so bear that in mind. The objective was to get the most out of him this year. If he had the security of another year on his deal why would anyone expect anything different than he had shown in his first 3 seasons? Salary drives do that. Mission accomplished. Great point. The staff and people inside the Bills buildings know the players way better than we do. Shaq doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who hides his emotions. Also, if you go back and watch his tape from Clemson, he was the slowest guy off the line a lot. Shaq made up for it with his strength and size, but Shaq was never going to be a pass rushing DE raking up double digit sacks for years. I love to draft one in the first to pair with Oliver for the next 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, oldmanfan said: I'm OK with not extending him. HE's had a pretty solid year this year, and I think they can use the$$ they would save from letting Murphy go, having Zo retire, plus the large amount of cap space they have anyway to resign him. Murphy isn't likely going. He hasn't been special as a pass rusher but has done extremely in getting multiple TFL's and vs. the Run/setting the edge, and decently in the pass rush game. He is in the fan's doghouse, but not the film watcher's dog house from everything I have seen. Much like Star L. (much better on film at doing his job than in the fan's perception) With that said, to the original point, Shaq has had a very nice, consistent year. I hope they can convince him to stay for somewhat of a home town discount but it probably isn't too likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Just now, 34-78-83 said: Murphy isn't likely going. He hasn't been special as a pass rusher but has done extremely in getting multiple TFL's and vs. the Run/setting the edge, and decently in the pass rush game. He is in the fan's doghouse, but not the film watcher's dog house from everything I have seen. Much like Star L. (much better on film at doing his job than in the fan's perception) With that said, to the original point, Shaq has had a very nice, consistent year. I hope they can convince him to stay for somewhat of a home town discount but it probably isn't too likely. I agree Murphy hasn't been as bad as some would suggest, but I think they will look to upgrade their pass rush this off-season. So he may be a casualty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan4 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 No. Shaq said that the Bills not picking up his 5th year option was a big wake up call for him. I’m not sure if he’d be the s motivated if the Bills has rewarded his previous lackluster seasons with a huge raise (5th year option was $10M or so iirc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I agree Murphy hasn't been as bad as some would suggest, but I think they will look to upgrade their pass rush this off-season. So he may be a casualty. I do agree in that I hope they draft a pass rusher fairly early. And they have the cap room to retain both I believe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I’m not sure what all of this chatter is about. If players are motivated to stay in Buffalo, so be it. If they want to walk for a over priced pay day elsewhere, so be it. The Process is all about staying away from players who’re in pursuit of the latter....isn’t it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said: Great point. The staff and people inside the Bills buildings know the players way better than we do. Shaq doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who hides his emotions. Also, if you go back and watch his tape from Clemson, he was the slowest guy off the line a lot. Shaq made up for it with his strength and size, but Shaq was never going to be a pass rushing DE raking up double digit sacks for years. I love to draft one in the first to pair with Oliver for the next 4 years. He has actually improved his get-off to the point where he is close to average.........but interestingly on his sack Thursday he was very late off of the ball. At Clemson his strangely slow release would often aid him in collecting garbage sacks after his more aggressive linemates had moved the QB off his mark. Shaq still has no pass rush repertoire to speak of....he often plays armless against OT's and once initially blocked he usually just tucks his shoulder into them and it turns into an unreciprocated doseedo. But he has a very quick burst if he gets close to the ball. The blitzing the Bills are using lately has really fractured opposing OL's and created a ton of opportunities for Shaq. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 55 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: The Process is all about staying away from players who’re in pursuit of the latter....isn’t it? Is it? What makes that so different about what any other team would want to do? Pretty much every Free Agent you will sign is "walking away from their team, looking for a bigger payday". That's the rub of Free Agency. You know more about how the player performs on the field, but at a premium of a higher contract than they are probably worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 5 hours ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said: I don’t mind the move. Not sure it was warranted last season. He’s playing well and I hope we can keep him around. I trust Beane will have a value for him and stick to his guns one way or another. His game had definite moved upward last year but not enough to remove questions. Had he had the year he's having this year, I believe he would have had his 5th year picked up. I'd like to see the Bills resign him now for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: We have $91M in cap space going into the offseason. The 4th most in the entire league. We can afford to throw $10M-12M/year at Phillips and not even sweat it. It's nice that we get Harry back, but I dont like what little I've seen from Liuget, and dont want to downgrade out Interior DL just to save Pegula money (that we have to spend anyways). We can sign our DL guys, and a few FAs, AND still get extensions done with our own players. In Beane I Trust. I agree with you in trusting Beane. I'm not trying to save Pegula money, $91M sounds like a lot but it can go rather quickly. The Bills have a lot of starters who are still on rookie deals who need to be re-signed in the near future. Bills may want to get a FA WR and pair him with Brown. That will cost some coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Nope. He had been a below average starter and has elevated his game to average. Not worth a 5th year option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VW82 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 (edited) I think the better question is should we try to re-sign him? There are some good points on the No side in this thread, but here's why I think we might consider it: Zo is probably going to retire, Murphy has a history of getting injured, and Hughes has taken a noticeable step back this year. Maybe Johnson steps up next year but that's probably not something you bank on. If we let Shaq walk we might be pretty thin at end and our already shaky run D would likely take a hit. I could see both sides coming to agreement on something shorter term that approaches what he would have made on that 5th year option. Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said: Is it? What makes that so different about what any other team would want to do? Pretty much every Free Agent you will sign is "walking away from their team, looking for a bigger payday". That's the rub of Free Agency. You know more about how the player performs on the field, but at a premium of a higher contract than they are probably worth. No they’re not. The hope is that if you build a winning culture you’ll be able to retain some talent who choose to stay even if it’s NOT for the biggest payday available. The Patriots are the perfect example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: No they’re not. The hope is that if you build a winning culture you’ll be able to retain some talent who choose to stay even if it’s NOT for the biggest payday available. The Patriots are the perfect example. We need a handful of Super Bowl wins and a decade+ of Division dominance before any player even thinks of giving us a winning-team discount. even players that choose to go to teams like the Pats or Seahawks arent taking less than market value. And besides Brady (who gets paid on the side through his other businesses), which big-name players have stayed on the Pats at a discount? They signed Gilmore to $13M/year, and the most guaranteed money the Pats have ever given a Defensive player, and he was someone who left his original team looking for a pay day. Free agents cost money, it's part of the NFL life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 No. Some people need to step up. Lawson underwhelmed for most of his career. He is looking like a player now. I would say a solid contributor. I won't pay massive money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Who knows if Shaq plays the same way if he has a guaranteed year locked in after this? Also, people need to keep in mind that Shaq's 5th year option was roughly 10 million, why is anyone so sure that his next deal is going to average as much or more than that? Shaq has 5.5 sacks with 4 games left in the season and he plays 2 QB's who don't take many sacks in the final 4 games (Brady and Lamar Jackson) so at best I think Shaq finishes with 8ish sacks on the season (about 2.5 in the final 4 games seems like a healthy total.) I am not so sure a player with 5.5-8 or so sacks is going to command more than 10 million aav deal esp if that number doesn't get past 7 sacks. I would much rather see a player and have to overpay him for doing well than lock him into an expensive year despite the fact that he showed no reason to warrant a large guaranteed salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socal-805 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Nope. No way. Shaq is a decent player, but he’s not worth close to what his option year would’ve paid him - $9.45M. That also would’ve set the floor for a new contract. That average salary per year would rank 21st among DEs. No thanks. He is not close to that kind of player. However he is a player that I’d like to have in my 3 DE rotation, but I’m not happy if he’s one of my starting 2. I’d be happy to pay him accordingly. If not, there’s other guys out there to fill that role. Correct: not overpaying a 1st round pick who starts showing up in contract year; forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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