Mayfield is << Allen

[BuffaloBill]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Elite

 

Can he live up to them, hard to say, i think he will be a Russell Wilson type , great but not elite but that will be good enough to win Superbowls.

 

 

 

 

 

You think Russell Wilson is not elite?

[aristocrat]

baker had a passer rating of 13. if you spike the ball you get a rating of 39

[JinxedBill]

Biggest problem is Cleveland is they have a ton of talent and no leadership.  You need both talent and leadership/heart.  They go hand and hand.  That’s my take anyway. I like Mayfield but I think he’s getting caught up in the churn. 

[aristocrat]

if our o line dominated a decent titans o line imagine what they're gonna do to clevelands?  

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Weaknesses on the Offensive Line and their talent is not as prevalent as the media led us to believe

[Sundancer]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Elite

 

Can he live up to them, hard to say, i think he will be a Russell Wilson type , great but not elite but that will be good enough to win Superbowls.

 

 

 

 

Wilson is elite. 

 

I'd say his worst case of all existing QBs is Matthew Stafford. Not from a tools perspective but from wins and losses. His floor is like that. Could play a decade and have many great games and lay some eggs too. But Josh's style at his floor reminds me a lot more of Jake Plummer. 

[eball]

If Allen put up numbers in a game like Baker did last night this board would be on fire...

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

If Allen put up numbers in a game like Baker did last night this board would be on fire...

And with a bye week coming up, they'd serve his head on a platter!!!!

[thebandit27]

Let's chill on calling Baker trash.

 

This happens to 2nd year QBs when DCs have 16 games of film on them.

 

He's a kid. He'll learn, he'll improve, and he'll be back.

 

Of course, in the meantime, it's entirely reasonable to call him an a-hole.

[Chuck Wagon]

I enjoy how the Baker apologists say it's not his fault he threw a ball in the dirt from 8 yards away that Callaway popped up, but if it were Allen they would be saying that lack of accuracy is why he'll never make it.

[Hebert19]

28 minutes ago, JinxedBill said:

Biggest problem is Cleveland is they have a ton of talent and no leadership.  You need both talent and leadership/heart.  They go hand and hand.  That’s my take anyway. I like Mayfield but I think he’s getting caught up in the churn. 

I think hes actually caught up in building a brand...not football.  

 

He even looks out of shape. 

[Chuck Wagon]

1 minute ago, Hebert19 said:

I think hes actually caught up in building a brand...not football.  

 

He even looks out of shape. 

 

 

He's not a great athlete.  People were expecting a Russell Wilson like jitterbug.  Baker is short, slow and has a beer belly.  You can run around and make all kinds of plays in the Big 12 that are just sacks and picks in the NFL.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

7 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

Cleveland Passing

	C/ATT	YDS	AVG	TD	INT	SACKS	QBR	RTG
Baker Mayfield	8/22	100	4.5	0	2	4-42	1.4	13.4

 

With Baker struggling so much last night, one wonders what Frazier/McDermott will cook up for him when he faces our defense.

[cd1]

7 hours ago, BigBobby said:

It is funny. On here, Facebook, TV, etc. people make excuses for Baker. It's his OL's fault, his HC's fault, his diva WR's fault and Baker will come around - he's just a young struggling QB.

 

Meanwhile, Allen is 4-1. The only team he has lost to in his last 8 games is being predicted to go 16-0 and just won another Super Bowl. Yet, all people can talk about with Allen is his bad plays. We dissect every single throw. We talk for a week about when he missed a wide open Zay who is running slower than Kelvin.

 

Why do people always criticize Allen so much and make excuses for Baker? Baker's stats suck. The Browns are a trainwreck - and by the way, they were said to be one of the most talented in the NFL before the season and now they are hurting Baker's development??? Or maybe HE is hurting them!

 

Not to mention, Allen plays with more heart than anyone I can remember seeing and Baker spends more time worrying about how to get Rex with a good zinger than getting his team on the right track. His attitude is even worse than his horrendous play.

One word - expectations!

[Royale with Cheese]

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:52 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Yes. Besides the bravado and antics the dude TWICE WALKED ON at D1 programs and won starting jobs

You can say whatever u want about Baker and he may have regressed a little but his work ethic shouldn't be questioned

He obviously busts his butt in the film and weight room to get to where he is. Maybe he is losing it

 

I thought a guy here who knew a guy said this year in Cle Baker has not been putting in the time

Maybe he let the shirtless car ads with the Tiger and "At Home with Baker Mayfield" go to his head

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

I enjoy how the Baker apologists say it's not his fault he threw a ball in the dirt from 8 yards away that Callaway popped up, but if it were Allen they would be saying that lack of accuracy is why he'll never make it.

 

This is exactly why I'm enjoying this year's Browns.  Ordinarily I would feel empathy for the Brownies fans as my brothers and sisters in suffering.

 

But I heard one too many pundits fawning over Baker pre-draft and last season while prognosticating that Allen is such an inaccurate QB he has less than 0 probability to make it in the NFL.  Anyone looking at Allen's cheesecloth OL and the Bills total and complete lack of run game last year not to mention their sorry-ass WR corps was held to be rationalizing and making excuses.

Now we see that a decent OL is in fact a QB's best friend and if a QB thinks he's arrived after a decent rookie season and maybe slacks off in the prep, well, THIS.

[PromoTheRobot]

8 hours ago, njbuff said:

It’s pretty clear that Allen is in a much more structured environment than Mayfield. 
 

Allen has a chance, but does Mayfield at this point?

 

Cleveland is DYING for some leadership. Buffalo has plenty of it.

 

We shall see moving forward. ?

 

Baker could benefit from the wise tutelage of Rex Ryan.

[Captain Hindsight]

 

19 minutes ago, Cotton Fitzsimmons said:

 

With Baker struggling so much last night, one wonders what Frazier/McDermott will cook up for him when he faces our defense.

I'm going to that game. Couldnt be more excited 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

He's not a great athlete.  People were expecting a Russell Wilson like jitterbug.  Baker is short, slow and has a beer belly.  You can run around and make all kinds of plays in the Big 12 that are just sacks and picks in the NFL.

 

He's not Russ Wilson and hopefully no one savvy expected this.  But there was way more to Baker's college game than running around.  He had great field vision, and he showed great accuracy and decision making and just enough mobility to make it happen.

 

There are 2 things:

1) Football starts in the trenches.  And if a guy is playing "run for your life" he needs a special brand of discipline and the right players and play calling around him to get it done

And he'll still make more mistakes.  But few were willing to make allowance for Allen's poor OL last year in Wyo and last year here.

2) People confuse bluster and bravado with Heart.  Obviously Mayfield believed in himself in order to walk on 2x at D1 schools and start.  But his Heart is built on bluster and bravado and that's a fragile thing.  If you use negativity to motivate yourself, you walk a thin line between motivation and carrying the weight of it.  I think Mayfield is starting to feel the weight.

 

 

27 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Let's chill on calling Baker trash.

This happens to 2nd year QBs when DCs have 16 games of film on them.

He's a kid. He'll learn, he'll improve, and he'll be back.

Of course, in the meantime, it's entirely reasonable to call him an a-hole.

 

Not calling him trash, but do you really think it's just 16 games of film that's the issue here?

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

I just dropped in at Browns Watercooler just to check it out. Wow, Browns fans for the most part are still clinging to Mayfield like a dirty blanket. While still claiming Josh Allen at 4-1 "is the most inaccurate QB of all time."

[buffaloboyinATL]

Baker Manzeil...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

55 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Weaknesses on the Offensive Line and their talent is not as prevalent as the media led us to believe

 

This is basically it IMHO.  The media annointed them and was all over their marvelous WR room and Baker.

They have a HC and OC who are over their heads and Mayfield would just about get better protection if he lined up behind 5 trash cans full of birdseed.

 

Again, normally I would be empathetic to the Brownies fans, and I'm not calling Baker trash by any means.  But I had a few too many earfuls with Baker being the darling of the analytics crowd, a sure-fire all-world Magical Franchise Man while Allen was trash and mocked and laughed at.

 

This is football.  It's a team game.  The other 10 guys and the coach make a huge difference.

 

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Baker could benefit from the wise tutelage of Rex Ryan.

 

You're a Bad Man, Promo.  Cleveland is already feeling ...the Agony of De Feet

[JMF2006]

25 minutes ago, Cotton Fitzsimmons said:

 

With Baker struggling so much last night, one wonders what Frazier/McDermott will cook up for him when he faces our defense.

 

Stop the run and keep him in the pocket problem solved.

 

If they can make Brady cry after a poor performance BM may need Prozac

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

You think Russell Wilson is not elite?

 

He is now.

 

In my opinion.

 

I think it's that "reputation" thing someone else quoted.  Wilson started out as more of a game manager and less of a brilliant passer.  But he's worked like hell, and his game has definitely taken a step and evolved.  Big jump happened between his 3rd and 4th seasons.  Before that he was a 200 ypg guy.

[C.Biscuit97]

I mean we’re comparing a qb with a 75 rating to one with a 68 but without a doubt, Baker and the Browns have been huge disappointments.  It seems like they made a bad head coaching hire because I still do like their roster.

 

i think the constant overreacting gets lame.  Everyone was ready to anoint Baker last year, now he’s the worst qb ever.  But when you run your mouth all the time, you look dumb when you don’t get the job done.  I think I’ve grown to appreciate about Allen is his attitude.  He just seems to handle his business. The Bills are kinda boring but in a good way.  They just show up and play.

[thebandit27]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He's not Russ Wilson and hopefully no one savvy expected this.  But there was way more to Baker's college game than running around.  He had great field vision, and he showed great accuracy and decision making and just enough mobility to make it happen.

 

There are 2 things:

1) Football starts in the trenches.  And if a guy is playing "run for your life" he needs a special brand of discipline and the right players and play calling around him to get it done

And he'll still make more mistakes.  But few were willing to make allowance for Allen's poor OL last year in Wyo and last year here.

2) People confuse bluster and bravado with Heart.  Obviously Mayfield believed in himself in order to walk on 2x at D1 schools and start.  But his Heart is built on bluster and bravado and that's a fragile thing.  If you use negativity to motivate yourself, you walk a thin line between motivation and carrying the weight of it.  I think Mayfield is starting to feel the weight.

 

 

 

Not calling him trash, but do you really think it's just 16 games of film that's the issue here?

 

 

 

I think it's a combination of things:

16 games of film

A HC that's in waaaaaaay over his head 

An overmatched OL

A bit too much bravado on the part of the whole team 

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I think it's a combination of things:

16 games of film

A HC that's in waaaaaaay over his head 

An overmatched OL

A bit too much bravado on the part of the whole team 

I really do believe in their talent.  But I don’t get why they couldn’t have just like FK be the OC. Was he that in demand? Also going into the season with Greg Robinson as your LT should get someone fired.  That’s a team that should be all over Trent Williams.  

 

Good news is if they keep losing, Bills fans will take over their field when we play them.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Talent doesn't matter if the team is dysfunctional. Any bills fan should understand that after Doug Whaley's tenure.

 

[Don Otreply]

On 9/16/2019 at 11:52 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Yes. Besides the bravado and antics the dude TWICE WALKED ON at D1 programs and won starting jobs

 

You can say whatever u want about Baker and he may have regressed a little but his work ethic shouldn't be questioned

 

He obviously busts his butt in the film and weight room to get to where he is. Maybe he is losing it

Yeah, and Zay Jones set records at Division 1 level too, div 1means nothing at the pro level. BM is a smack talker douche , so he is being made an example of by his betters, this sort of thing happens in the adult world. BM may get his head out of his azs and become a good pro, time will tell, but right now he is stinking up the place.

[Sundancer]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

Yeah, and Zay Jones set records at Division 1 level too, div 1means nothing at the pro level. BM is a smack talker douche , so he is being made an example of by his betters, this sort of thing happens in the adult world. BM may get his head out of his azs and become a good pro, time will tell, but right now he is stinking up the place.

 

Great commercials though. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I think it's a combination of things:

16 games of film

A HC that's in waaaaaaay over his head 

An overmatched OL

A bit too much bravado on the part of the whole team 

 

Good assessment.

And possibly a bit too much belief in his own hype vs "humble, hard-working, and hungry" on the part of Baker

 

 

13 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Talent doesn't matter if the team is dysfunctional. Any bills fan should understand that after Doug Whaley's tenure.

 

 

Horse.  Dead.  Whacking.

[billsfan1959]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

He is now.

 

In my opinion.

 

I think it's that "reputation" thing someone else quoted.  Wilson started out as more of a game manager and less of a brilliant passer.  But he's worked like hell, and his game has definitely taken a step and evolved.  Big jump happened between his 3rd and 4th seasons.  Before that he was a 200 ypg guy.

Absolutely spot on. Wilson has grown into an upper echelon QB; however, he was a QB averaging 195 - 220 YPG during their SB years. Interestingly enough, so many fans want to equate an elite QB with 300 YD passing games, yet in his 8 full seasons, Wilson averaged more than 250 YPG once, and averaged about one 300 YD game per season. Also, as his average per game has gone up, his playoff appearances have gone down. 

 

Wilson did not start out as an elite QB, yet, he was given that reputation, IMO, before he earned it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Horse.  Dead.  Whacking.

 

Is it really, though?
 

Pretty germane to the conversation about the browns who are, at best, a randomized collection of talent.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Is it really, though?
Pretty germane to the conversation about the browns who are, at best, a randomized collection of talent.

 

Yes, it is really.

We truly don't need to rehash the whole Whaley was the worst GM ever/Whaley brought in talent/but was it a team?/Rex was the problem/Rex ruined Whaley's talent/Rex was treated unfairly    blahblah, 3 years after Whaley hit the road, *during a thread that is about 2 QB who weren't in the league nor even drafted the last time Whaley was*

 

Horse.  Dead.  Whacking.  Let it go.

[Chuck Wagon]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good assessment.

And possibly a bit too much belief in his own hype vs "humble, hard-working, and hungry" on the part of Baker

 

 

 

Horse.  Dead.  Whacking.

 

 

I think anyone who is as brash with rabbit ears for any bit of criticism as Baker is clearly overcompensating for something. I think Baker is hearing footsteps, but at this point it's tough to say if it's due to not preparing properly or having to overcome a nagging sense of self doubt.  He's bailing out of good pockets immediately and trying to make too much happen.

 

I believed prior to the draft and still believe to this day that if Allen were at Oklahoma with Lincoln Riley and that talent he would have been the #1 pick by a country mile and Baker at Wyoming is likely mid 1st territory. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

I think anyone who is as brash with rabbit ears for any bit of criticism as Baker is clearly overcompensating for something. I think Baker is hearing footsteps, but at this point it's tough to say if it's due to not preparing properly or having to overcome a nagging sense of self doubt.  He's bailing out of good pockets immediately and trying to make too much happen.

 

I believed prior to the draft and still believe to this day that if Allen were at Oklahoma with Lincoln Riley and that talent he would have been the #1 pick by a country mile and Baker at Wyoming is likely mid 1st territory. 

 

 

 

To be fair to Baker, when a QB knows well that his pocket could collapse like a Mumbai construction project at any time, it's hard to trust it and stay home.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Baker went 8-22 last night.    that's not good.  

 

I seen that Tyrod taught him well!!!!  

[Ta111]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To be fair to Baker, when a QB knows well that his pocket could collapse like a Mumbai construction project at any time, it's hard to trust it and stay home.

There was a study done (isn’t there one for everything?) a couple of weeks ago that showed Mayfield led the league in leaving the pocket early.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is basically it IMHO.  The media annointed them and was all over their marvelous WR room and Baker.

They have a HC and OC who are over their heads and Mayfield would just about get better protection if he lined up behind 5 trash cans full of birdseed.

 

Again, normally I would be empathetic to the Brownies fans, and I'm not calling Baker trash by any means.  But I had a few too many earfuls with Baker being the darling of the analytics crowd, a sure-fire all-world Magical Franchise Man while Allen was trash and mocked and laughed at.

 

This is football.  It's a team game.  The other 10 guys and the coach make a huge difference.

 

 

You're a Bad Man, Promo.  Cleveland is already feeling ...the Agony of De Feet

I feel the same as you do. IMHO these folks root for the model to be correct. Silly me, but they should be finding a way to utilize all the information. And, allow for the fact that there are variables that are just plain random or are hard, if not impossible, to account for.  By all accounts, JA appears to have characteristics of a leader in spades, while inexperienced, his teammates and coaches want to play/work for him. Oh and BTW, the dude has some pretty good talent at his disposal. It's still early in his career, but I'm happy to say we took the correct Josh.

Edited October 8, 2019 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower