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Ruben Brown on Mitch Morse: “It Might Be It For Him” & Carwell Gardner is “Severely Suffering”


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FWIW

 

NEW YORK – The NFL announced that reported player concussions in the 2018 regular season were down 29 percent from the previous year. The league said there were 135 documented concussions in that span, down from 190. Including the preseason, concussions fell from 281 to 214, a 23.8 percent decrease.

 

The key word   

documented concussions

Edited by ShadyBillsFan
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36 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

Doug Whaley/Nix built a REALLY good roster... with the exception of a quarterback. They don't deserve the hate they get here for that... maybe for Rex, but many people loved that move then too.

It's been said that every GM/Couch will be judged by their choice of quarterback, no matter how well he does everywhere else. I guess it's true.

 

Whaley didn't do too bad in terms of building the roster, it was the contracts he dealt out that kinda ruined his tenure.

 

And if you hold up Beane's misses against his hits right now, you can see that he's hitting way more than missing. First, it's obvious that no GM is going to succeed on every single decision. Second, the chatter about Morse being paid (or any other FA) too much is weak. If you flip it around and the Bills *didn't* sign Morse, the same people complaining about his deal would be the first ones to call out Beane and the team for being "too cheap." I mean, people understand that the Bills are always gonna have to overpay a little bit for the FA's they really want, right? Although many players who come through here praise the fans and the game-day atmosphere, on paper, the Bills have been missing the playoffs, losing more than they win, all with a near-constant state of upheaval and turnover in the front office/coaching department for the last 20 seasons (save for one flukey playoff appearance). That's going to turn off most any player from wanting to come here. That's why the Bills always have to up the ante with the contract a bit. 

 

Same story year after year. Some fans are just always gonna find a way to gripe or think they're the only real genius of the Armchair GM Club. It's always, "They need to do this, and then that, and then this other thing!" *Team proceeds to do this, that, and the other thing.* Some fans: "No, no, no! Not like that! UGH! Fire Beane!"

 

Also - this wasn't directed at you, unbillevable, I was more responding to the quote from your original post.

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11 minutes ago, TigerJ said:

I'm sure that's the intent, and just as sure they only provide very limited protection versus the older helmet designs.

Uhm, no.  No helmet is concussion proof but many of the newer one are FAR superior to the old ones.  Hockey helmets are getting better too.

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4 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

If you flip it around and the Bills *didn't* sign Morse, the same people complaining about his deal would be the first ones to call out Beane and the team for being "too cheap."


THIS dude gets it. Wish we could hand out kudos points or something, because this is the most honest thing I've read on this board in YEARS.

 

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47 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

ON paper, Whaley built a really good team... which is what GM's are supposed to do. The couch is supposed to put it together.. the hire of which can be blamed on All parties involved.

The team wasn't in cap hell, they just spent to it.

 

 

I would not say it was a “good” team.  It was an average team and there was no plan or vision.  That’s what GM’s ARE NOT supposed to do.  That is where Buddy Nix and Whaley failed big time.  They had no vision and put together an average team who performed right around their talent level.

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44 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

Am I horrible that the first thing I thought after reading this is how our cap space is affected if Morse retires?

 

You are not fitting the Canadian stereotype of politeness/niceness/concern for others well at all....

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11 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

FWIW

 

NEW YORK – The NFL announced that reported player concussions in the 2018 regular season were down 29 percent from the previous year. The league said there were 135 documented concussions in that span, down from 190. Including the preseason, concussions fell from 281 to 214, a 23.8 percent decrease.

 

The key word   

documented concussions

 

Ruben actually talks about documented concussions.  Says that there really is no way to tell that a player has been concussed.  This is why he said Morse needs to be careful, because if he’s prone to concussions he could very well have more than the 3 documented cases

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20 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

It is crazy to me that if a guy retires the team still has to eat the cap hit. I genuinely do not understand the justification for that. 

 

 

I agree if its a retirement, especially if it is a medical retirement. There should be some offsets that don't punish the team.

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For the curious 

 

Contract Notes:

  • $20.4M guaranteed at signing (signing bonus + 2019 salary + 2019 roster bonus + $2M of 2020 salary)
  • 2019 Roster Bonus: $3M (paid 3/17/2019)
  • Additional $4.775M of 2020 salary fully guarantees on 5th league day of 2020 (injury guaranteed now)
  • $1.325M of 2021 salary guaranteed for injury
  • 2020 Roster Bonus: $1M (5th league day of 2020)
  • 2022 Roster Bonus: $1M (5th league day of 2022)
  • 2019 Per Game 46-Man Roster Bonus: $62,500 ($1M, 11 LTBE)
  • 2020 Per Game 46-Man Roster Bonus: $62,500 ($1M)
  • 2021 Per Game 46-Man Roster Bonus: $31,250 ($500,000)
  • 2022 Per Game 46-Man Roster Bonus: $31,250 ($500,000)
  • Workout Bonus: $100,000
  • Pro Bowl: $200,000

 

 

That looks as if an injury clause is in place

Edited by ShadyBillsFan
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So because of the Barry Sanders rule we can use an arbiter to go after Mitch's signing bonus. He's going to make every effort to play. We might be jumping the gun on the retirement party. Hopefully we're just being overly cautious. Morse was diagnosed with concussion like symptoms not as having had a knock out event.  

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20 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

I would not say it was a “good” team.  It was an average team and there was no plan or vision.  That’s what GM’s ARE NOT supposed to do.  That is where Buddy Nix and Whaley failed big time.  They had no vision and put together an average team who performed right around their talent level.

 

That was NOT an average team.  Seriously, look at the roster. Find a glaring hole outside of Quarterback.

Whaley's team was loaded with talent. They under-performed, mostly because of Rex.

 

I remember some articles stating the Bills had built the most complete roster in the NFL... talent everywhere... if only they had found a QB (poor EJ).

I would compare Whaley's team to pre-Cousins Vikings, or the current Jaguars...

16 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

I agree if its a retirement, especially if it is a medical retirement. There should be some offsets that don't punish the team.

 

The team can sue to get the signing bonus back, as well as the guaranteed money.

That's the reason why many players choose to NOT file retirement paperwork, and wait for the team to cut them, instead.

 

It's something they should put into contracts, but no player would agree to it, especially the medical guarantee.

Edited by unbillievable
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Really hope that is not the case and Mitch Morse comes back fully healthy. 

 

I do feel a lot of people are sleeping on John Feliciano. If Morse has to miss time I think Feliciano could be a good replacement. This guys is Huge, smart, athletic, mean, and a mauler. Think he is a great signing for us. 

 

xbs4sg5mjccggzbsuywq.jpg

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He's definitely not done. I mean he's slowly progressing through the protocol , at this point I feel Bills are just being smart and cautious. They know he's an elite C and a professional. 

Highly doubtful he's not starting C in MetLife week 1. Hold him out all pre season. 

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If this happens to Morse again, I hope he makes the right choice and practices acceptance. Often times, an athletes competitive nature and desire to play can override the reality of a serious injury. I hope that he can play and contribute safely.

Edited by Rocket94
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1 hour ago, Binghamton Beast said:

Ruben Brown likes to hear himself talk without knowing what the ***** he is saying.

Agreed. Great player, but why would he know anything about concussions, especially since he claimed to never have one? He's not a doctor.

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1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

Wonder what helmet he's using these days.  I saw a presentation by Vicis. Those are pretty impressive in terms of energy dissipation.  If my kid played football he'd wear one of those. 

Yeah, but you can't do anything about inertia, and your brain is always going to smack your skull, regardless of what type of helmet you are wearing.  

 

There is also a lot of data suggesting it's not the big "bell ringer" of a concussion that does the long term damage, but rather, thousands of little impacts over time.

 

My kid wouldn't play football!  The odds of him doing it for a living are close to zero, at which point he's just out there to get some exercise, experience team building, maybe exhibit some leadership skills, etc.

 

You can do those things in many other ways without suffering brain damage.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

Yeah, but you can't do anything about inertia, and your brain is always going to smack your skull, regardless of what type of helmet you are wearing.  

That's true, but you can slow the accelerations.  Mine isn't allowed to play football either.  Hockey is bad enough.

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41 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

Ruben actually talks about documented concussions.  Says that there really is no way to tell that a player has been concussed.  This is why he said Morse needs to be careful, because if he’s prone to concussions he could very well have more than the 3 documented cases

I always think about these comments from Troy Polamalu in 2012 when this topic comes up.

 

"I've had, I believe, eight or nine recorded concussions. We'll have another conversation after I'm done playing football," Polamalu told the show. "When you get your bell rung they consider that a concussion -- I wouldn't ... If that is considered a concussion, I'd say any football player at least records 50 to 100 concussions a year."

 

Full Article here:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/8177905/troy-polamalu-pittsburgh-steelers-admits-lied-concussions

Edited by Nextmanup
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1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

They had a major need at center, knew about Morse's concussion history, and still went forward with the contract.  (Cue someone to say Beane didn't know he'd get another concussion). 

 

People here talk about Beane's management of the cap and how he maneuvered the team into a solid position after Whaley.  Yet, he's the guy who signed players like Star to a bloated contract, gave a thrice concussed Morse a big contract, and traded for Benjamin who flamed out fast.  He may not be as bad as Dugout Doug 2013-2016, but he's showing signs his command of personnel and dollars isn't as great as advertised.

 

For McBeane's sake, they'd better be a 10 or more win team this year.  Because not doing so is going to shine a bigger spotlight onto the whiffs in free agency.

 

 

It's fair to criticize a GM's moves.  But you should take all factors into consideration.

In the case of Mitch Morse, what other option would you have preferred?

 

Matt Paradis was the only other Free Agent Center worth pursuing.  He was also coming off an injury, and has yet to participate in either training camp or preseason for the Panthers.  You can't criticize us for taking one guy with an injury history, while at the same time criticizing us for NOT taking another guy with an injury history.  

 

If we had gambled and waited until the draft, there were basically two good Center prospects.  One was Garrett Bradbury, who went #18 to the Vikings.  Drafting him would have either cost us (not getting) Ed Oliver, or a significant trade-up from the 2nd Round... very likely our 2nd rounder (Cody Ford) AND a 2020 first rounder. 

 

The second prospect was Erik McCoy, who went #48 to the Saints.  OK, that sounds more realistic.  But to draft him, we would have either passed on Cody Ford (who was a significantly higher rated player on most boards than McCoy) or swung some kind of trade, which likely would cost us Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox... in which case everyone freaks out because of Beane's failure to adequately address Running Back and Tight End.

 

In my opinion, Morse was a calculated gamble.  If the concussions end up becoming an issue, it will be due to bad luck, not mismanagement by our front office.

 

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1 hour ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Absurd. Name one cap=crippling contract like Dareus. I'll wait.

 

What you forget was Dareus was an All Pro and the scrubs we are talking about from Beane aren't even top 100 players.  That said: 

 

Morse if he can't play again.  20.4 M dead cap right now. 

 McCarron, Davis ate 7.6M in cap space for nothing. 

Ivory took 3.2M last year

Murphy took 7.87M last year 

 

So go ahead and tell me 

4 sacks and 385 yards were worth 18.7M last season.. 

 

I'll wait.

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1 hour ago, Binghamton Beast said:

Ruben Brown likes to hear himself talk without knowing what the ***** he is saying.

 

I wish he knew the snap count more often, but that seemed to escape him.  

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57 minutes ago, wppete said:

Really hope that is not the case and Mitch Morse comes back fully healthy. 

 

I do feel a lot of people are sleeping on John Feliciano. If Morse has to miss time I think Feliciano could be a good replacement. This guys is Huge, smart, athletic, mean, and a mauler. Think he is a great signing for us. 

 

xbs4sg5mjccggzbsuywq.jpg

one thing that might be under rated, Bills really covered the bases this offseason with O line. 

 Just impressive in mho.

working Felciano and Long at Center shows they knew the risks with Morse and...

 likely knew Bodine was  "iffy" . lol

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57 minutes ago, wppete said:

Really hope that is not the case and Mitch Morse comes back fully healthy. 

 

I do feel a lot of people are sleeping on John Feliciano. If Morse has to miss time I think Feliciano could be a good replacement. This guys is Huge, smart, athletic, mean, and a mauler. Think he is a great signing for us. 

 

xbs4sg5mjccggzbsuywq.jpg

It's starting to look like he may be the most important FA signing next to Cole Beasley and John Brown. Hope Morse is ok to play cause Feliciano is a monster at Guard.

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14 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Contract isn’t bad. If he ends his career early really Bills have an out after next year. Not a huge issue. 

 

I would certainly expect it to be created that way. This was a known risk. They gambled, and may just have lost on this one. You take your shots and hope you win more than you lose. 

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19 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

What you forget was Dareus was an All Pro and the scrubs we are talking about from Beane aren't even top 100 players.  That said: 

 

Morse if he can't play again.  20.4 M dead cap right now. 

 McCarron, Davis ate 7.6M in cap space for nothing. 

Ivory took 3.2M last year

Murphy took 7.87M last year 

 

So go ahead and tell me 

4 sacks and 385 yards were worth 18.7M last season.. 

 

I'll wait.

20/20 foresight is so much more impressive than 20/20 hindsight. Can you please link us to all your posts objecting to the above signings WHEN THEY OCCURRED? 

 

We’ll wait. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, unbillievable said:

 

That was NOT an average team.  Seriously, look at the roster. Find a glaring hole outside of Quarterback.

Whaley's team was loaded with talent. They under-performed, mostly because of Rex.

 

I remember some articles stating the Bills had built the most complete roster in the NFL... talent everywhere... if only they had found a QB (poor EJ).

I would compare Whaley's team to pre-Cousins Vikings, or the current Jaguars...

 

The team can sue to get the signing bonus back, as well as the guaranteed money.

That's the reason why many players choose to NOT file retirement paperwork, and wait for the team to cut them, instead.

 

It's something they should put into contracts, but no player would agree to it, especially the medical guarantee.

 

You are heavily biased toward Whaley, that is for sure.  There were weaknesses at several positions.  Didn’t the Bills trot Corbin Bryant on the field to start at DT?  Below Average.  John Miller at guard?  Below average.  Bacarri Rambo as starting safety.  Below average.   But I guess the team was “loaded.”  Yeah.

 

You never addressed my main point - Whaley has no vision or any idea how to build long term success.  He had no plan.

 

If anything Whaley was a poor man’s Daniel Synder.  He tried stacking talent, managed the cap poorly, and had no idea how to build a winner.

 

He has been exiled to the XFL for very good reason.  Whaley is not a GM

Edited by Phil The Thrill
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15 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

You are heavily biased toward Whaley, that is for sure.  There were weaknesses at several positions.  Didn’t the Bills trot Corbin Bryant on the field to start at DT?  Below Average.  John Miller at guard?  Below average.  Bacarri Rambo as starting safety.  Below average.   But I guess the team was “loaded.”  Yeah.

 

You never addressed my main point - Whaley has no vision or any idea how to build long term success.  He had no plan.

 

If anything Whaley was a poor man’s Daniel Synder.  He tried stacking talent, managed the cap poorly, and had no idea how to build a winner.

 

He has been exiled to the XFL for very good reason.  Whaley is not a GM

You are heavily biased against him

 

The starters at DT were Dareus and Williams. Rambo and Bryant were backups... can't really predict suspensions and injuries; although they played well in spot duty. Miller was average, but reliable; anytime you can get a 3rd round pick to start as a rookie, is a win. 

 

Waley's roster was his vision... and he plugged every hole; even Quarterback was somewhat addressed with Tyrod.  What was lacking was the culture, the process, also known as the Head Coach.

 

...And the fact that he butted heads with Marone proved he had a vision of how he wanted HIS players used.  Unfortunately, because of the hole at quarterback, his "vision" morphed into building a run heavy team, enter Tyrod and Rex... it might have worked too... but, while his offense managed to be respectable, Rex ruined a great defense, which got both of them fired.

 

 

 

 

Edited by unbillievable
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