Mitch Morse in concussion protocol

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Ittakestime said:

Can people stop saying Long can play center?  Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it.

 

They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it.

 

Exactly right.  Except that he's listed as the backup center.  Oops.

[CBD]

1 hour ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Can people stop saying Long can play center?  Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it.

 

They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it.

They started practice yesterday with him at center with the 1's

[Ittakestime]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Exactly right.  Except that he's listed as the backup center.  Oops.

 

And what is Feliciano listed on the depth chart?

 

The depth chart means nothing.  Sal C was on WGR today saying Long has barely played center in TC and the team has no agenda to play him there.  He only played a couple snaps in a pinch during TC.

 

 

[RobbRiddick]

Even if (horror of horrors) he did retire today, I wouldn't blame Beane. Others have rightly said that many players have injury histories, and the only way to get a big name like that is to outbid everyone else. You just have to pull the trigger and hope you're not unlucky with them. Hopefully we get enough games out of him that it's worth it. If he is going to miss some games this season I hope we have him for the run in, because that looks on paper like the really tough part of the schedule and obviously leads into the playoffs.

[MR8]

1 hour ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Can people stop saying Long can play center?  Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it.

 

They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it.

 

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Exactly right.  Except that he's listed as the backup center.  Oops.

 

5 minutes ago, CBD said:

They started practice yesterday with him at center with the 1's

 

JMO but I think Ittakestime is kind of right... to a degree.  What I mean is that Long was an abysmal failure at Center last year, and I agree that he was brought in to Buffalo to play OG.  Where I think the disparity is, McDermott and Beane value guys who can play multiple positions.  While they added Long to be in the mix at OG, I think they always also valued his ability to "in a pinch" play Center.

 

Proof of this is that Long has been listed as a C/G on the Bills roster on their website since he was signed.  He was always viewed as a guy who could play center, but IMO he was supposed to come in and compete for either the starting OG spot, or a back up OG/C spot because of his versatile skill set.

 

Right now Long is playing Center because Bodine was a tire fire, and Morse is obviously not able to play right now.  So out of necessity he's running with the 1s, but I think it's 100% proof he will be on the 53 man either as a starting OG, or a backup OG and backup C.

 

Long Battled through A LOT of injuries last year, and the Jets signed him to a rich C contract last off-season because he has had success at Center.  He's more of an OG by trade and skill, but he CAN Be successful at Center.  

 

Bodine is only still on this roster because there isn't a viable replacement out there to take reps.  Look for the Bills to trade for a Center if they can using some of their depth.  But at this point no team is giving away starting caliber centers or guards. So we're making due with what we have.

 

 

So I guess in summary, Long was brought here to play OG as it's more his natural position, but he can play Center and has been successful there just like he's been a disaster there.  Hopefully Morse can come back and Long can slide back to OG, but for now, he's the best we have and teams aren't just giving away Centers right now.

 

 

We'll be combing cuts for depth on the line, but for now this is the best we can do.

4 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

Even if (horror of horrors) he did retire today, I wouldn't blame Beane. Others have rightly said that many players have injury histories, and the only way to get a big name like that is to outbid everyone else. You just have to pull the trigger and hope you're not unlucky with them. Hopefully we get enough games out of him that it's worth it. If he is going to miss some games this season I hope we have him for the run in, because that looks on paper like the really tough part of the schedule and obviously leads into the playoffs.

 

That wouldn't happen IMO.  He would be screwing the Bills over HARD CORE if he just up and retired.  The classy thing to do would be to let the team put him on IR and wait until 2020 so it would be year 2 of his deal and the cap hit would be SIGNIFICANTLY decreased.  Just like what Eric Wood did by waiting until after June 1st to file his retirement paperwork so the cap hit for his retirement would be amortized over 2 years instead of all hitting at once. 

 

It was always a risky signing, but they needed to take a swing! And they did... hopefully he can go, but if not, at least there were out there trying.  And like I said in my previous post, the contract is not the end of the world like people seem to think. 

[oldmanfan]

If Morse can't go it would seem Feliciano is the starter.  Long then backs him up.

[CommonCents]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

If you look back at Morse’s interview with WGR he talks about some extensive testing in the offseason which indicated he didn’t have much recurrence risk.  I presume the front office knew something about that.

 

I think this is a classic case of folks

here thinking have more knowledge that the fromt office.  Beane took what I’d call a calculated gamble perhaps, but he had a lot more data available to make that play.  And if it doesn’t work out then he lost.

I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so. 

[John from Riverside]

So just one question

has his spleen been removed yet?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

16 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so. 

 

I don't think it counts as looking at the "facts" if you then proceed to posit a series of questions you do not know the answer to. 

[CommonCents]

5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I don't think it counts as looking at the "facts" if you then proceed to posit a series of questions you do not know the answer to. 

The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? 

 

The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

4 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? 

 

The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. 

That’s a question of every free agent. Are you suggesting we should never sign free agents?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

If Morse can't go it would seem Feliciano is the starter.  Long then backs him up.

 

Sounds like that is where it’s trending. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

The Kroft and Morse deals LOOK "Lofty" but in reality they are not... Morse's is a bit more firm than Kroft, but both are deals the Bills can get out of fairly easily...

 

 

 

Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again.

 

Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017).

 

Morse has $26M+ in guarantees.   

 

There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit.

 

Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Ittakestime said:

And what is Feliciano listed on the depth chart?

 

The depth chart means nothing.  Sal C was on WGR today saying Long has barely played center in TC and the team has no agenda to play him there.  He only played a couple snaps in a pinch during TC.

 

Starting RG.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 hours ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Can people stop saying Long can play center?  Just because a guy was put there and failed miserably, doesn't mean he can play it.

 

They guy can't play it and was not brought here to play it.

 

To be clear, he failed miserably trying to play center with a torn ligament in his hand.  I'm no doctor, but can see where that could make it a bit difficult.

 

 

3 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

The Kroft and Morse deals LOOK "Lofty" but in reality they are not... Morse's is a bit more firm than Kroft, but both are deals the Bills can get out of fairly easily...

 

Kroft's Deal:

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$10,950,000	$2,400,000	$3,600,000	$1,500,000	$300,000		$3,900,000		$18,406,250
2019 ?	27	$1,800,000	$800,000	$2,100,000	$500,000	$100,000		$3,900,000		$4,956,250	2.6%		$6,300,000	($1,343,750)
2020 ?	28	$4,450,000	$800,000	$750,000	$500,000	$100,000		$0		$6,600,000	3.3%		$1,600,000	$5,000,000
2021 ?	29	$4,700,000	$800,000	$750,000	$500,000	$100,000		$0		$6,850,000	--		$800,000	$6,050,000

 

So he'a s Cap hit of just $4.95M in 2019, which increases to $6.6M in 2020.  HOWEVER in 2020 if we want to cut him we wear just a $1.6M cap hit with $5M in cap savings.  In 2021, he would be $6.85M against the cap, but if we cut him we wear just a $800K cap hit and save $6.05M.  

 

This deal is by definition a 1 year deal with team option years.  Kroft gets nice guaranteed salary for 2019, but going into 2020 and 2021 there is nothing guaranteed, so he needs to EARN IT.  If he can't stay healthy this year, they can put him on IR and come to an injury settlement, OR just wait until the 2020 league year, release him, and wear a small cap penalty and move on.  It's not the end of the world by any means.

 

Morse Deal:

 

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$25,100,000	$11,000,000	$5,000,000	$3,000,000	$400,000		$9,400,000		$44,187,500
2019	26	$4,400,000	$2,750,000	$3,000,000	$1,000,000	$100,000		$7,400,000		$10,937,500	5.8%		$20,400,000	($9,462,500)
2020 ?	27	$6,775,000	$2,750,000	$1,000,000	$1,000,000	$100,000		$2,000,000		$11,625,000	5.8%		$10,250,000	$1,375,000
2021	28	$7,025,000	$2,750,000	$0	$500,000	$100,000		$0		$10,375,000	--		$5,500,000	$4,875,000
2022 ?	29	$6,900,000	$2,750,000	$1,000,000	$500,000	$100,000		$0		$11,250,000	--		$2,750,000	$8,500,000

 

WHAT?!?!?!? $44M??? HIT THE PANIC BUTTON!!!!! Oh, what's that? only $9.4M is guaranteed?

 

The Morse deal is a bit more than a 1 year deal like Kroft's, it's essentially a 2 year deal with SIGNIFICANT protection to the Bills considering the dangers of injuries for Morse.  The first year, this year, 2019, he is $10.9M against the cap, and it would be a SIZEABLE $20M to cut him... well he'd be post June 1st now so it would be $12M in 2019 and $8M in 2020... but I digress.... Sure that's big, we can't get rid of him in 2019, HOWEVER in 2020, his cap hit goes up to $11,625, but if we decided to opt out of the experiment and go in a different direction, he can be release for a $10.25M dead cap hit, and actual cap savings of $1.3M.  

 

After that 2 year period, the Bills realize much larger cap savings if they want to get out from under the Morse deal... in 2021, they could cut him for a $5.5M cap hit and $4.87M savings and in 2022 the final year, we could cut him and only wear the final $2.75M of his signing bonus and save $8.5M

 

While it was a risk to sign Morse to a deal with this much money, they structured it with outs every year following the 2019 season where they would eat cap, but could also get relief if they chose to move on from Morse, or Morse needed to retire etc...

 

If they or Morse himself decides he's done after 2019, we do wear $10M in dead cap, but it comes in a year when we are FLUSH with cap to replace him, and after 2020, that is off the books and we move on.  If he gets healthy and stays a few years, our ability to get out from under the deal only gets better and better. 

 

....

 

People complain about the deal like it's going to kill us in the future, however those same people tend to run around complaining without actually looking at the details of the contract and the ability for the Bills to get out of them.  There's a new sheriff in town and unlike years past, Beane is structuring deals to benefit the Bills long term, while throwing the players a bone short term to get them to ink the deal.

 

Realistically it's very unlikely they walk away from either after one season.  Kroft maybe if Knox and Sweeney come on, but then a small cap hit.  Excluding Morse deciding to retire, probably gives them at least one more year which lessens the cap hit considerably.

 

 

1 hour ago, CommonCents said:

The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? 

 

The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. 

 

Excluding using the franchise tag on him, they didn't let him walk, he elected to sign elsewhere.  Do you somehow have inside information that clearly states, KC never made him an offer?  Considering KC has some big contracts coming up to sign, can see them needing to let some go.  To sign top FA's you always have to offer more than his present team and in the case of Buffalo maybe a little more on top of that.  Did KC not offer the big bucks because of the concussion history, maybe, so he elected to go elsewhere.  Happens every day with players all the time.

 

So what was your suggestion as to how they should have addressed the center position instead?

 

 

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again.

 

Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017).

 

Morse has $26M+ in guarantees.   

 

There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit.

 

Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.

 

Big difference though with Dareus there were clear signs of him being a jerk and never playing up to the contract.  There's a big difference between taking a risk  on a player with an injury history and being an idiot.  The injuries can go away, being an idiot all your like likely won't change.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, CommonCents said:

I don’t think that’s the case at all. I don’t see anyone playing smartest man in the room. All we can do is look at the facts, why did KC let such an important piece walk away? Did they know his “head” was out of football and he wasn’t in it for the long term. We don’t know the answer but if he never plays a game in Buffalo or retires after say one season...that’s the question many will be asking. Rightfully so. 

One of the facts is he got thoroughly evaluated in the off season.  Why do you discount that fact?

[akm0404]

Wait this thread is about how Morse's contract is as bad as Dareus' when we're like, 1 week into preseason and the veteran player hasn't suited up yet?

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again.

 

Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017).

 

Morse has $26M+ in guarantees.   

 

There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit.

 

Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.

 

Morse was a top center in the market. If you’re going to gamble/bid to land a vet, timing isn’t terrible. 

 

Dareus us was also worth the deal when he was signed. Too bad he turned into a pumpkin once the ink dried. 

 

I dont recall too many folks objecting to the Dareus deal as it happened, it was only the retrospective uproar that fans have the luxury of resorting to when they decide they “knew it was a bad move”

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, CommonCents said:

The fact is his team let him walk and sign elsewhere, did that happen? Yes or no? 

 

The rest is what follows if he doesn’t play. 

Teams do not let free agents walk.  They get outbid.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Big difference though with Dareus there were clear signs of him being a jerk and never playing up to the contract.  There's a big difference between taking a risk  on a player with an injury history and being an idiot.  The injuries can go away, being an idiot all your like likely won't change.

 

 

Oh both are liabilities.   Which one is worse depends on the nature.    Morse situation is career threatening.   Dareus' floor was more like "well I guess we just have an elite run stuffer instead of a first team All Pro DT".   

 

Players change and mature it happens all the time.    Look at the attitudes of Dareus, Gilmore, Woods and Watkins since they left.   Shady is another example.   After a humbling debut as a Bill he started owning up to his problems/choices and became a team leader.  Too bad that maturity and elite talent only intersected for one season.

[H2o]

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

[PetermansRedemption]

7 minutes ago, H2o said:

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

If*

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Teams do not let free agents walk.  They get outbid.

 

 

That's not always true either.     Sometimes a lower bid is accepted for other reasons and sometimes the team has a franchise tag option and doesn't use it.   I can't recall if the Chiefs had the tag at their disposal on Morse but they let him walk because they had already played a good portion of the season with success without Morse.    Not the first very good center the Chiefs have let leave in FA under Reid.  I think he is comfortable evaluating and replacing them.   McBeane's OL choices hadn't been sharp so they probably felt compelled to take more risk for a guy they KNEW could play if healthy.

8 minutes ago, H2o said:

Man, I'll be glad when Morse gets back on the field, plays at an All-Pro level, and people can stop  over this whole situation. 

 

 

That emoji looks like it should be in concussion protocol.

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Morse was a top center in the market. If you’re going to gamble/bid to land a vet, timing isn’t terrible. 

 

Dareus us was also worth the deal when he was signed. Too bad he turned into a pumpkin once the ink dried. 

 

I dont recall too many folks objecting to the Dareus deal as it happened, it was only the retrospective uproar that fans have the luxury of resorting to when they decide they “knew it was a bad move”

 

 

Yeah I get taking the risk on Morse.........huge wad of found money in pocket.......immediate need......talented player........... but you are ultimately judged by your results.

 

I mean people pan Whaley on here for Watkins but if Watkins had remained healthy and was handled properly he's a top 5 WR in the NFL.        

 

If if's and buts were Lombardi's and Hunt's.........know what I'm sayin'?

[MR8]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Dude you can downplay it all you want...........but if Morse doesn't play then from a cap perspective moving on is basically the equivalent of cutting Dareus all over again.

 

Dareus dead cap was $24M (which counted his salary for games played for the Bills in 2017).

 

Morse has $26M+ in guarantees.   

 

There was MUCH writhing and shaming of the previous GM on here over the Dareus cap hit.

 

Beane has done some easy-out contracts(for mostly middling personnel) but the Morse and Lotulelei ones aren't low impact to bale from.

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...  He got $11M at signing (money which has already been paid and needs to be accounted for over the 4 years of the deal at $2.75M per year), and $9.4M across the first 2 years of the deal.  Add up $11 + 9.4 and you get how much?  OHHHH right $20.4... the exact same as his dead cap hit if we cut him this year.

 

His pro rated bonus this year is $2.75 (same as every other year) + his $7.4M guaranteed Salary ... that equals $10.15M

 

So in 2020 if we cut him you take $10.15 and subtract it from the TOTAL GUARANTEED MONEY which is $20.4, not your made up number... and you get..... DRUM ROLL

 

$10.25... the exact number I already stated.  His "Cap Hit" in 2020 would be $11.625M, so his dead cap would be $1.375 M LESS than if we kept him on the roster... you just subtract the dead cap of $10.25 from the roster hit if he were on the team of $11.625.

 

So there would be savings by year 2 if we needed to cut him... it's not ideal that we wear the dead cap of $10M but at least we aren't handcuffed to him forever since we can get out from under the deal in year 2.  The savings are even better in years 3 and beyond.

 

If you're comparing that to the Dareus deal, you may want to get your facts straight... Dareus signed a 6 year $108M deal in 2015.  In that deal he was guaranteed $65M PLUS a $25M Signing Bonus, so you're talking about $90M that needed to be accounted for by the cap.  He was traded in 2017, the 3rd year of that deal.  He was 3 years in and the dead cap was $10.66 in 2017 and $14.2M in 2018 making a total of $24.86... his dead cap 3 years in was still more than the total guarantees given to Morse.  

 

On the flip side, if we cut Morse in the second year of his deal we will already realize cap savings of $1.375, and in the 3rd year we'd be saving $4.875M in cap and wear just a cap hit of $5.5M, all of which is the remainder of the unaccounted for bonus money.  

 

The reason the deal isn't a massive boondoggle disaster is because of the structure Beane uses with his contracts.  He makes them so that they are nice upfront money for the player to give them an incentive to sign on the bottom line, with most of that money in the first year or two.  THEN After that first year, the team can opt out without a big cap hit.

 

Here's another example... the Trent Murphy Contract:

 

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus	Other Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$14,525,000	$5,250,000	$1,000,000	$1,500,000	$300,000	$150,000		$5,625,000		$22,318,750
2018	28	$2,625,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$2,625,000		$4,662,500	2.6%
2019 ?	29	$5,800,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$150,000		$3,000,000		$8,706,250	4.6%		$6,500,000	$2,206,250
2020 ?	30	$6,100,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$0		$8,950,000	4.5%		$1,750,000	$7,200,000

 

So he signed in 2018 and got a signing bonus of $5.25M and $5.625M Guaranteed Salary over the life of the 3 year deal with all of it in the first 2 years.  So had we cut him in 2018 we would've had to account for the bonus plus the guarantees, so the cap hit would've been $10.875M, his cap number on the other hand was $4.6625M, so we would've had to use up additional cap space to cut him.

 

HOWEVER the reason this deal is a perfectly constructed "Prove it" deal where if they wanted out in 2019, his Cap hit is $8.7M-ish they could've cut him and only worn a dead cap hit of $6.50M and SAVED $2.2M+ for this year.

 

In year 3, 2020, his cap hit is $8.95M, however he has $0 in Guaranteed Salary, and the only money remaining from his Signing Bonus is $1.750.  So the dead cap to cut him would only be $1.75M and we'd SAVE $7.2M against the cap.  

 

So if he's good we keep him on a good contract for a pass rusher in 2020, if he sucks, we cut him and wear a very minimal cap hit.  And at the end of the day the player is happy because he earned good money over the life of the "Prove it" Deal.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by MR8

[papazoid]

hope it works out...

 

i would avoid all players with a history of concussions.

[Heitz]

8 minutes ago, papazoid said:

hope it works out...

 

i would avoid all players with a history of concussions.

 

So more baseball players on the team..?

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, MR8 said:

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...

 

 

You did a great job explaining the contract @MR8 but you can't change peoples minds with facts if they don't want to hear them.

 

My hope now (not knowing how bad this is) is Morse can be back for the NYJ game and he can get thru as many games as possible this year.

This situation is probably going to be a game by game thing.

 

[CommonCents]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Teams do not let free agents walk.  They get outbid.

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

Edited August 12, 2019 by CommonCents

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

51 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah I get taking the risk on Morse.........huge wad of found money in pocket.......immediate need......talented player........... but you are ultimately judged by your results.

 

I mean people pan Whaley on here for Watkins but if Watkins had remained healthy and was handled properly he's a top 5 WR in the NFL.        

 

If if's and buts were Lombardi's and Hunt's.........know what I'm sayin'?

 

Sort of get you. 

 

Watkins is a completely different story.  The trade up to get him was pricey and he’s barely a top 5 wr from his class much less the league. 

 

Not extending him was the right move. 

 

Morse was a calculated risk, but they also moved on two other guys the can play center.  There’s not a guy on the roster right now that’s being targeted as a cap casualty.

 

Beane is doing a very good job. The next looming challenge here is if and when the team starts to enjoy some success, what happens to the stars coming off their current contracts....? 

 

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Sort of get you. 

 

Watkins is a completely different story.  The trade up to get him was pricey and he’s barely a top 5 wr from his class much less the league. 

 

Not extending him was the right move. 

 

Morse was a calculated risk, but they also moved on two other guys the can play center.  There’s not a guy on the roster right now that’s being targeted as a cap casualty.

 

Beane is doing a very good job. The next looming challenge here is if and when the team starts to enjoy some success, what happens to the stars coming off their current contracts....? 

 

 

I don't mean to make this about Watkins, but boy do I disagree there.

 

They didn't have to extend him, all they had to do was pick up his 5th year option, which would've paid him a bit over $10M (totally reasonable considering Tyrell Williams is currently getting $11M). After that, they could've tagged him for 2 straight years.  They basically gave up on him 3 years early, and as a result they've had nothing that resembles a downfield threat at WR for 2 full seasons.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

22 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

 

I didn't realize KC didn't even offer him a contract. Where did you read that? 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

27 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

False. 

 

It’s a simple point and if you could get down from the hill of everything’s awesome then you’d see it.

 

Morse has a lengthy history of concussions, do you think it’s likely, possible, or impossible that someone in KC knew that Morse was either suffering severely or just not able to get past the mental block of sacrificing his health?

 

Obviously the story isn’t finished yet, this will be talked about a ton if he never comes back or plays less than a handful of games. 

 

I think they still made some nice oline decisions, heck I loved the Morse signing this winter. This just feels off though, the guy got concussed playing in the first practice then out for who knows how long.

 

Could just be they liked the backup who stepped in while Morse was out and didn’t want to pay the big FA money...  Levitre and Woods left the Bills as good players.  Bills didn’t know some deep dark secret about them 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh both are liabilities.   Which one is worse depends on the nature.    Morse situation is career threatening.   Dareus' floor was more like "well I guess we just have an elite run stuffer instead of a first team All Pro DT".   

 

Players change and mature it happens all the time.    Look at the attitudes of Dareus, Gilmore, Woods and Watkins since they left.   Shady is another example.   After a humbling debut as a Bill he started owning up to his problems/choices and became a team leader.  Too bad that maturity and elite talent only intersected for one season.

 

Think Dareus was a little career threatening too as one incident away from a suspension from what I recall.

 

Of the 4 you mention, don't recall any attitude or at least not much with either Woods or Gilmore.  As far as I recall neither of them were not welcomed back if they had wanted to sign here.  Dareus, didn't I hear him being taken out last year for passing downs.  Is it really because he's it's been figured out that not very good or is it still related to attitude?  He may not be making the 11 O'clock news anymore, but is he really playing as well as he can?  Sammy well he's kind of faded to oblivion.

 

As for McCoy, so when exactly did he mature, after the 2013 incident when he kicked some woman off his party bus, or after the fight with the off-duty police in Philly, or was it after the domestic violence incident last year.  Does being out of the news over the last year changed him?  I'll grant you, he seems to be a locker room leader, just as Dareus may have been, but in a bad way.

[njbuff]

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

[ddaryl]

 

1 minute ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

 

 

That is the part that makes this all a lot worse. We are all left speculating the severity of this.  Are they being super cautious or are we looking at season ending IR with a possible medical retirement ?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

27 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

Its concussion protocol. After everything the happened, teams just don't talk about concussion injuries. This isn't a Morse thing. Its a league thing. 

[gobills1212]

2 hours ago, MR8 said:

 

Did you even bother to read the rest of my post that you cut off?  Because it entirely disproves your inaccurate statements... I don't think you understand how the Salary cap or dead cap works...  Dead cap hits are the remainder of guaranteed money...  He got $11M at signing (money which has already been paid and needs to be accounted for over the 4 years of the deal at $2.75M per year), and $9.4M across the first 2 years of the deal.  Add up $11 + 9.4 and you get how much?  OHHHH right $20.4... the exact same as his dead cap hit if we cut him this year.

 

His pro rated bonus this year is $2.75 (same as every other year) + his $7.4M guaranteed Salary ... that equals $10.15M

 

So in 2020 if we cut him you take $10.15 and subtract it from the TOTAL GUARANTEED MONEY which is $20.4, not your made up number... and you get..... DRUM ROLL

 

$10.25... the exact number I already stated.  His "Cap Hit" in 2020 would be $11.625M, so his dead cap would be $1.375 M LESS than if we kept him on the roster... you just subtract the dead cap of $10.25 from the roster hit if he were on the team of $11.625.

 

So there would be savings by year 2 if we needed to cut him... it's not ideal that we wear the dead cap of $10M but at least we aren't handcuffed to him forever since we can get out from under the deal in year 2.  The savings are even better in years 3 and beyond.

 

If you're comparing that to the Dareus deal, you may want to get your facts straight... Dareus signed a 6 year $108M deal in 2015.  In that deal he was guaranteed $65M PLUS a $25M Signing Bonus, so you're talking about $90M that needed to be accounted for by the cap.  He was traded in 2017, the 3rd year of that deal.  He was 3 years in and the dead cap was $10.66 in 2017 and $14.2M in 2018 making a total of $24.86... his dead cap 3 years in was still more than the total guarantees given to Morse.  

 

On the flip side, if we cut Morse in the second year of his deal we will already realize cap savings of $1.375, and in the 3rd year we'd be saving $4.875M in cap and wear just a cap hit of $5.5M, all of which is the remainder of the unaccounted for bonus money.  

 

The reason the deal isn't a massive boondoggle disaster is because of the structure Beane uses with his contracts.  He makes them so that they are nice upfront money for the player to give them an incentive to sign on the bottom line, with most of that money in the first year or two.  THEN After that first year, the team can opt out without a big cap hit.

 

Here's another example... the Trent Murphy Contract:

 

Year	Age	Base Salary	Prorated Bonus	Roster Bonus	Per Game Roster Bonus	Workout Bonus	Other Bonus		Guaranteed Salary		Cap Number	Cap %		Dead Money & Cap Savings Cut (pre-June 1)Cut (post-June 1)Trade (pre-June 1)Trade (post-June 1)RestructureExtension
Total		$14,525,000	$5,250,000	$1,000,000	$1,500,000	$300,000	$150,000		$5,625,000		$22,318,750
2018	28	$2,625,000	$1,750,000	$0	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$2,625,000		$4,662,500	2.6%
2019 ?	29	$5,800,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$150,000		$3,000,000		$8,706,250	4.6%		$6,500,000	$2,206,250
2020 ?	30	$6,100,000	$1,750,000	$500,000	$500,000	$100,000	$0		$0		$8,950,000	4.5%		$1,750,000	$7,200,000

 

So he signed in 2018 and got a signing bonus of $5.25M and $5.625M Guaranteed Salary over the life of the 3 year deal with all of it in the first 2 years.  So had we cut him in 2018 we would've had to account for the bonus plus the guarantees, so the cap hit would've been $10.875M, his cap number on the other hand was $4.6625M, so we would've had to use up additional cap space to cut him.

 

HOWEVER the reason this deal is a perfectly constructed "Prove it" deal where if they wanted out in 2019, his Cap hit is $8.7M-ish they could've cut him and only worn a dead cap hit of $6.50M and SAVED $2.2M+ for this year.

 

In year 3, 2020, his cap hit is $8.95M, however he has $0 in Guaranteed Salary, and the only money remaining from his Signing Bonus is $1.750.  So the dead cap to cut him would only be $1.75M and we'd SAVE $7.2M against the cap.  

 

So if he's good we keep him on a good contract for a pass rusher in 2020, if he sucks, we cut him and wear a very minimal cap hit.  And at the end of the day the player is happy because he earned good money over the life of the "Prove it" Deal.

 

Times like this, i wish there was a gold star rep point. This post made want to invent my own:)!!

[scribo]

Mitch came out day after day at camp, do the most the rules allow him to do. I think that's a positive sign, not a sign of impending retirement. It is quite possible he will remain in protocol until the week before the season opener to be safe. As those big hands just wrote, the team is required to not comment in any way on anyone in concussion protocol. Zero pressure is permitted on the player to return.

[Big Blitz]

36 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Like I have said..................

 

Why are they so mum about it?

 

 

If he wasn't doing agility stuff I'd be asking this to.  

 

My guess:  

 

I think they are being really cautious because of the history....probably too cautious.  

 

You'll see him week 1.