Lawson's 5th yr option ($9.451M) declined & Ziggy update

[whatdrought]

9 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I agree, he is average.  I think some people blowing him off as "not good" is a bit of an overstatement.

 

I mean, it really depends on your view of things... I think realistically he's an average rotational player, and a below average starter. For a 16th overall pick, you're looking for something much better than that, so "not good" actually works given the proper framing of what is and isn't good based on what he was supposed to be. 

[jletha]

At least we know he will be motivated now.

[John from Riverside]

They can still resign him if he has a monster year they will have the cap...... but I wonder how this affects the whole ziggie thing.

[HOUSE]

And I was so excited a few hours ago ..

[Reed83HOF]

22 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

No shock at all.  Pretty obvious they were interested in an upgrade and that definitely meant his 5th year option was unlikely.

 

Personally, I think we sign Ansah and then try and trade Shaq like we did with Sammy after not picking up his option either.  Beane probably tries to trade Shaq whether we sign Ansah or not, just to try and get some value before letting him walk in FA.  

The 3rd wave of FA is about to start and we should see a couple of trades coming up soon. Only 99 days until Preseason game #1

[Canadian Bills Fan]

well hopefully he actually performs this year seeing as how his future $$$ rides on this season

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

well hopefully he actually performs this year seeing as how his future $$$ rides on this season

$$$ has been proven to be a good motivator 

[dollars 2 donuts]

15 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Lawson, Ragland, Washington, C. Jones, J. Williams

 

Doug Whaley sure nailed that draft.

 

 

Well...when you actually put it in writing and force me to think about it...yes, I get queasy.

 

Please don't think you've accomplished something today, Doc.  I've been queasy over this team before.  

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Not surprised at all. Although he did give effort and occasionally made plays, he just never lived up to his 1st round billing. Better to say thank you and goodbye now, then to be stuck with Chris Kelsay for another 5 years....

 

Yup - Shaq's basically Kelsay.  Shouldn't be a primary option for any team in the league honestly.  Depth rotation piece. 

 

Okafor got 3yrs 18 - anything more than that for Shaq would be a surprise to me (beyond the slight YoY increase in cap%).  If he has a good year maybe he could hit the Henry Anderson mark - 3yr 25 mil.  But 13 mil for a year, guaranteed or not is still very high for the player as he stands currently.  

[BarleyNY]

34 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

Do you really think he will want to be back in Buffalo after being told “no thanks.”

 

Correct. I checked into that in a previous offseason.* I could only find one example of a player who did not have his 5th year option picked up - or wasn’t extended prior to the deadline - by his drafting team who was still with that team .  Mark Ingram and the Saints.  A couple other players were well into contract negotiations at the deadline and had their deals done within days, but that was it.  Shaq is gone unless he absolutely blows up this season and gets tagged.  Anyone see that happening?  I sure don’t.

 

He was never going to be a pass rush stud like a lot of people hoped.  Since he was drafted the offseason that we parted with Mario some assumed that he’d be the replacement.  He’s excellent at setting the edge and can work for some pressure, but he’s really not what you want as a starting Edge player for today’s NFL.  He’d make a great DE3 on a team and will probably get picked up by a team looking to draft a stud there.  He’d be a really good player to hold down a DE spot while a rookie learns, then slide into that DE3 spot.  No shame in that.  He was just drafted too high. 

 

* Checked the 2018 draftees and it held true then too. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by BarleyNY

[Like A Mofo]

27 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Not overpaying for average players. How refreshing. 

 

Somewhere after waking up from a nap, Buddy Nix's ears are ringing

[Dablitzkrieg]

13 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

I mean, it really depends on your view of things... I think realistically he's an average rotational player, and a below average starter. For a 16th overall pick, you're looking for something much better than that, so "not good" actually works given the proper framing of what is and isn't good based on what he was supposed to be. 

That's a fair point.  I totally agree he is NOT worth $10 mill/yr.

[Phil The Thrill]

34 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

 

Bad draft pick by Doug Whaley.  He reached for a player who was falling down the draft board due to an undisclosed injury everyone knew about.  

 

I was never ever sure whether Whaley got bad intel from the Bills training staff or whether he was bluffing knowing that Shaw would really need the surgery and took a chance on him.  

 

Either way, you can’t say the Shaq lived up to his draft status or the potential from his college career.  If I recall he was considered a Top 10 pick before the injury.   He’s average but certainly has not played like a premium player.  

[billsfanmiami(oh)]

17 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Coaching change, after coaching change, after coaching change. Which he was never allowed to hire.

 

6 DCs in 5 years, a major scheme change each time.

 

Plenty of those players are still in the league and contributors on Playoff teams.

 

 

And he’s in the XFL....

[formerlyofCtown]

23 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

Do you really think he will want to be back in Buffalo after being told “no thanks.”

Players understand the business side.  They may have offered him an extension rather than the option.  But he chose to play it out.  Even Shaq acknowledge that prior to last season he wasnt fully committed. 

[YoloinOhio]

7 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

well hopefully he actually performs this year seeing as how his future $$$ rides on this season

We said that about KB!

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

That's a fair point.  I totally agree he is NOT worth $10 mill/yr.

 

I think that it will take a really big year from Shaq to get the extension.  It’s possible that the Bills could resign him to a new deal at a lower cost than the 5th year option, like Miami did with Davonte Parker.  

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, Phil The Thrill said:

 

 

Bad draft pick by Doug Whaley.  He reached for a player who was falling down the draft board due to an undisclosed injury everyone knew about.  

 

I was never ever sure whether Whaley got bad intel from the Bills training staff or whether he was bluffing knowing that Shaw would really need the surgery and took a chance on him.  

 

Either way, you can’t say the Shaq lived up to his draft status or the potential from his college career.  If I recall he was considered a Top 10 pick before the injury.   He’s average but certainly has not played like a premium player.  

How much say did Rex have over Whaley? How hard was Shaq pushed for by the coaching staff? Besides this he was drafted due to a scheme change, which is just idiocy, but par for the course in regards to where the franchise was back then. 

[LABILLBACKER]

25 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

The 5th Year Option does not extend him for another five years.

It tacks one additional year onto his deal, making him a free agent in 2021 instead of 2020.

 

I never said it did, I don't want this regime to get stuck with him.  I know how the option works.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

 

 

Bad draft pick by Doug Whaley.  He reached for a player who was falling down the draft board due to an undisclosed injury everyone knew about.  

 

I was never ever sure whether Whaley got bad intel from the Bills training staff or whether he was bluffing knowing that Shaw would really need the surgery and took a chance on him.  

 

Either way, you can’t say the Shaq lived up to his draft status or the potential from his college career.  If I recall he was considered a Top 10 pick before the injury.   He’s average but certainly has not played like a premium player.  

 

Not to stick up for Whaley but the Bills and "Club Rex" were not going to get the best out of anyone who wasn't self-motivated to be the best. Rex Ryan might have been the worst hire in Bills history.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Well...when you actually put it in writing and force me to think about it...yes, I get queasy.

 

Please don't think you've accomplished something today, Doc.  I've been queasy over this team before.  

 

 

I mean... washington's a FA, Raglands a starting LB for a... lets say "evolving" KC defense, and Shaq's a rotational piece on our D-line.  

 

I think what you have to evaluate on Whaley's drafting was need vs. BPA - and his trades.  Moving up for Ragland - a need - got us Cardale instead of Dak - assuming you still wanted to go QB in the 4th.  Supposedly ragland was 1st round talent - but only fit in a certain scheme

[YoloinOhio]

This one is more surprising 

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Not to stick up for Whaley but the Bills and "Club Rex" were not going to get the best out of anyone who wasn't self-motivated to be the best. Rex Ryan might have been the worst hire in Bills history.

 

I liked jaylon smith or myles jack there IIRC.  Just felt like - these guys would be stud players.  Neither has turned out to be incredible or anything - smith's a nice MLB tho.

[DCbillsfan]

28 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Depending on Murphy's health....................

 

Lawson's roster spot could be in jeopardy.

 

Cause we know the staff likes Love and drafted Darryl Johnson in the 7th round.

 

I guess they will sign Ziggy and cut Lawson. ?

If the Bills sign Ziggy, I could see them trying to trade Lawson or maybe hold onto him.  He's still on a cheap rookie contract.  I think it would mean that Yarbrough would be cut.  Plus letting Lawson walk as a free agent may yield a comp pick.

Edited May 1, 2019 by DCbillsfan

[Canadian Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

We said that about KB!

 

 

Touché

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

This one is more surprising 

 

 

 

Wow - wonder if its because he plays RT or they think they can replace him.  

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

This one is more surprising 

 

 

I would have some interest here

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, DCbillsfan said:

If the Bills sign Ziggy, I could see them trying to trade Lawson or maybe hold onto him.  He's still on a cheap rookie contract.  I think it would mean that Yarbrough would be cut.

 

Yeah - not having the 5th year option makes him more tradeable.

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

I liked jaylon smith or myles jack there IIRC.  Just felt like - these guys would be stud players.  Neither has turned out to be incredible or anything - smith's a nice MLB tho.

They both would have gone top 10 if not for significant injury concern 

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I mean... washington's a FA, Raglands a starting LB for a... lets say "evolving" KC defense, and Shaq's a rotational piece on our D-line.  

 

I think what you have to evaluate on Whaley's drafting was need vs. BPA - and his trades.  Moving up for Ragland - a need - got us Cardale instead of Dak - assuming you still wanted to go QB in the 4th.  Supposedly ragland was 1st round talent - but only fit in a certain scheme

 

 

Yeah, that was for joke purposes more so on my end, dneveu.  You are pretty spot on with the above.

 

And they are keeping Shaq around, but this is sort of "keep moving in the right direction" last year of the deal thing.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

13 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Not to stick up for Whaley but the Bills and "Club Rex" were not going to get the best out of anyone who wasn't self-motivated to be the best. Rex Ryan might have been the worst hire in Bills history.

I really, really do not want to dispute that, as I am inclined to agree! However, we have many deserving candidates...Jim Ringo? Kay Stephenson? Hank Bullough? A real Rogue's Gallery of ineptness to choose from. 

 

So glad it looks like our trajectory is miles ahead of those clowns now!!

Edited May 1, 2019 by NoHuddleKelly12

[Jay_Fixit]

I remember seeing him provide little pass rush and not much burst off the edge at Clemson, and then being the exact same thing in the NFL.

 

Rex Ryan.

 

LOL

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

They both would have gone top 10 if not for significant injury concern 

 

Yeah - i just looked at that board and felt like - top 10 talent with injury issues... or someone at 19 who might go in the 2nd any other year.

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

I really, really do not want to dispute that, as I am inclined to agree! However, we have many deserving candidates...Jim Ringo? Kay Stephenson? Hank Bullough? A real Rogue's Gallery of ineptness to choose from. 

 

So glad it looks like our trajectory is miles ahead of those clowns now!!

 

 

Well said, NHK, one caveat, but someone I don't want to put on the list is harvey johnson.  A long time Bills employee who was interim coach twice and had a career mark of 2-23-1.  Circumstances a little beyond his control.

 

However, his first stint helped get us OJ.

Edited May 1, 2019 by dollars 2 donuts

[inkman]

34 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Lawson, Ragland, Washington, C. Jones, J. Williams

 

Doug Whaley sure nailed that draft.

I guess since I have no idea who the last 3 names are, point taken. Has it been definitely decided it was Doug's draft and not Wrecks. 

[Aussie Joe]

36 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I will take that though and think Beane would too.  Might get a 4th too

 

You never know if they might need to move up two spots in the 2nd round next year with that 5th right?

 

I would rather keep him this year instead... they get another year out of him at the very least, and possibly even a comp pick if they lose him

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, Jay_Fixit said:

I remember seeing him provide little pass rush and not much burst off the edge at Clemson, and then being the exact same thing in the NFL.

 

Rex Ryan.

 

LOL

 

yeah - his pursuit was the thing i noticed the most.  Seemed even slower in the NFL.  He's been fine though, just never developed into much of a pass rusher.

[Chandler#81]

Had to be done.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

5 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Well said, NHK, one caveat, but someone I don't want to put on the list is harvey johnson.  A long time Bills employee who was interim coach twice and had a career mark of 2-23-1.

 

However, his first stint helped get us OJ.

Definitely right to always point out context Donuts, beyond just the stark numbers.

 

And FWIW, I also did not mean for my list to be exclusive, as in the modern era plenty of additional finalists may be found (Jauron, Fewell, Williams, et. al). But hey, at least we never elevated Rich Kotite to our HC!! The Jets can never live that dude down, can they?  

[Jamie Nails]

if he has a great season, they could always transition tag him- this would almost be the same as picking up the 5th year.