Bills defense is overrated.

[noacls]

19 hours ago, Domdab99 said:

this forum and its posters are overrrated

As you are

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

While I understand were you're coming from, I don't agree. The biggest problem is the defense, by the end of the game, is they are damn tired! The offense has been put SO much pressure on them by not sustaining drives. These guys need time to recover and the offense has been consistently had multiple three-and-outs. That wears down a defense.

 

The Bills D is allowed to force 3 and outs too.  I looked up the rulebook and it said so.

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Well you haven't done your homework on Frazier..he runs a safer cover 2 than his predecessor lovie Smith..Frazier is one of the least blitzing DC in the league..he has zero balls and is constantly afraid of the big play...he is trash and always has been...go ask Viking fans what they thought about Frazier..they were in heaven when he was let go

 

I am aware of Frazier's history as a Cover 2 guy and his poor tenure in Minnesota.  My point is, the DC works for the HC and therefore implements a game plan based on the HC's guidance. 

 

 

[The_Dude]

This is true. Our defense is overrated. It’s good. Not great. It’s good enough to win with. But it’s not good enough to stand alone with. 

[Victory Formation]

Defense needs a top corner, a LB and an EDGE. We get those things we can be special.

[gordong]

5 hours ago, T master said:

 

 

I would take the Bills D over a lot of others in the league like another poster said "they aren't elite" But they ain't bad & if they were given a bit better starting field position they would probably be a bit better too !! 

 

I think this draft will help on both sides of the ball given what Mcbean & company find in UDFA's Rome wasn't built in a day !! 

Doesn’t change the fact that they let a rookie QB March down the field and take the game, against our aligedy best player no less. It’s an average defense, they have no pass rush, they need another corner, at least one more lb, and a couple DT that can actually plug up the middle, sorry but good defenses don’t give up 200 yds rushing to Jacksonville. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

21 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

Defense needs a top corner, a LB and an EDGE. We get those things we can be special.

 

Watching Khalil terrorize Rams reminded me how much an elite End could improve the defense. 

 

Hughes is good but blockable Trent, Yarborough, Shaq... none of those guys are beasting through double teams for sacks. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, MichaelAbdallah said:

 

I suppose I just think the concept of pro MLB "instincts" are negligible and highly overrated. With a strong work ethic and good coaching, Edmunds will be fine developing into an elite MLB. A full off-season of adding bulk won't hurt either. And the varying football backgrounds between these so-called "instinctual" LB's and Edmunds do matter to me. He entered the league this summer as a very young and raw prospect. It should have been expected for Edmunds to struggle some in his rookie year and to not have a perfectly positive linear progression. I can generalize this frustration of mine to all sorts of life endeavors besides football. If you don't hit the ground running in something, a lot of people seem more than willing to write you off as "not a natural" and then steer you toward something else. This mindset seems to be typical of people who have never had the experience of working really hard and obsessively at something in their own private lives.

 

There's also the problem of where to put Edmunds if not at MLB. Milano plays the Will LB, and the Sam LB in a modern 4-3 defense is more of a part-time position. Both Edmunds and Milano need to be every-down LB's.

 

 

I believe that "instinct" matters.......it's the difference in a step...........which is the difference between making a play or getting blocked.

 

And while I get the football background thing.............Edmunds is the one with a big edge over most others..........his father was a pro bowl player in the NFL and raised he and his brother to be NFL players.

 

He's had every advantage.

 

Contrast that to Vander Esch for instance.........who didn't come from a football family and is in only his 4th season of playing 11 man football.    He is making plays Edmunds doesn't.

 

And while I agree that a lot of OLB snaps are lost to nickel CB's nowadays.........I think they can find a way to keep him on the field all the time.   

 

He may not be able to improve his instincts at MLB but he can hone his skills as a pass rusher and in man coverage.    Those positions tend to be more about physical gifts and developing them.   

[Big Gun]

4 hours ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

While I understand were you're coming from, I don't agree. The biggest problem is the defense, by the end of the game, is they are damn tired! The offense has been put SO much pressure on them by not sustaining drives. These guys need time to recover and the offense has been consistently had multiple three-and-outs. That wears down a defense.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

TOP from 3 games referenced in post

 

Bills 33:00 - Texans 27:00

Bills 32:57 - Dolphins 27:03

Bills 33:47 - Jets 26:13

 

As for 3 and outs, there was 3 in 3 games that resulted in a punt. Coach stinks, defense isn't very good at all and the offense blows minus J Allen. I firmly believe McClowns seat keeps getting warmer by the day.   

 

vs Jets

#	Quarter	Time	LOS	Plays	Length	Yds	Result
1	1	15:00	BUF 27	11	5:48	73	Touchdown
2	1	06:45	BUF 25	3	0:51	4	Fumble
3	1	04:34	BUF 25	7	3:27	75	Touchdown
4	2	11:10	BUF 29	8	3:56	58	Field Goal
5	2	06:31	BUF 25	2	1:44	-9	Interception
6	2	03:12	BUF 9	11	3:12	60	Blocked FG
7	3	14:51	NYJ 13	4	1:29	2	Field Goal
8	3	08:08	BUF 14	9	5:00	31	Punt
9	4	12:06	BUF 16	9	4:17	48	Missed FG
10	4	06:16	BUF 20	9	3:45	62	Field Goal
11	4	01:17	BUF 22	2	0:18	0	Interception

 

vs Dolphins

#	Quarter	Time	LOS	Plays	Length	Yds	Result
1	1	09:42	BUF 25	6	2:56	15	Punt
2	1	03:58	BUF 49	4	1:09	-6	Punt
3	1	01:49	BUF 45	9	5:05	55	Touchdown
4	2	09:29	BUF 42	3	2:43	3	Punt
5	2	00:40	BUF 10	6	0:40	49	Interception
6	3	15:00	BUF 7	10	5:58	79	Field Goal
7	3	06:15	BUF 4	6	2:58	23	Punt
8	3	01:48	BUF 23	4	1:16	18	Interception
9	3	00:24	BUF 17	6	3:24	83	Touchdown
10	4	08:42	BUF 25	8	5:08	38	Missed FG
11	4	02:33	BUF 10	7	1:40	60	Downs

 

vs Texans

#	Quarter	Time	LOS	Plays	Length	Yds	Result
1	1	15:00	BUF 22	8	3:53	32	Punt
2	1	04:43	BUF 23	5	3:28	9	Punt
3	2	13:41	BUF 34	6	3:28	13	Blocked Punt
4	2	08:33	BUF 25	3	2:44	-19	Punt
5	2	00:39	BUF 20	1	0:39	-3	End of Half
6	3	14:23	HTX 30	9	4:11	26	Field Goal
7	3	07:17	BUF 10	3	2:49	7	Punt
8	3	03:31	BUF 21	5	1:19	45	Field Goal
9	3	00:46	HTX 32	5	2:46	32	Touchdown
10	4	10:27	BUF 7	9	6:32	34	Punt
11	4	01:34	BUF 25	2	0:11	0	Interception
12	4	01:23	BUF 13	5	1:00	17	Interception

[tuckan]

On 12/9/2018 at 10:52 PM, Augie said:

 

Are you calling me an idiot? That role is already filled. 

I don’t know if you are an idiot or not.  But your post is idiotic.....

[Augie]

Just now, tuckan said:

I don’t know if you are an idiot or not.  But your post is idiotic.....

 

Well thank you so much!

 

Whether they are overrated or not depends upon how much you thought of them in the first place. I have no delusions about rivaling the ‘85 Bears.  But they are a pretty solid unit.

 

Look, things get testy after an ugly loss, and with all the Eyore posts that follow. I’m more of a big picture, long term view kind of guy, and I tend to lean toward glass half full while recognizing the shortcomings. It’s cool if you disagree. That doesn’t make anybody an idiot. 

 

[tuckan]

7 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Well thank you so much!

 

Whether they are overrated or not depends upon how much you thought of them in the first place. I have no delusions about rivaling the ‘85 Bears.  But they are a pretty solid unit.

 

Look, things get testy after an ugly loss, and with all the Eyore posts that follow. I’m more of a big picture, long term view kind of guy, and I tend to lean toward glass half full while recognizing the shortcomings. It’s cool if you disagree. That doesn’t make anybody an idiot. 

 

Yes you are correct.  My apologies to you.  No offense intended.....

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, tuckan said:

Yes you are correct.  My apologies to you.  No offense intended.....

 

And my apologies to you if I jumped on you in the flood of....”Eyorism”. People tend to overreact with every loss. I’d been hearing it all day long. Big picture, I’m good as long as Josh keeps improving. If he fails, I’d still give this FO another crack in time for another QB, as I like the direction (despite what others whine about). QB is a crap shoot. Period. But I will hold out hope we’ve got ours! 

[GreggTX]

I agree they are overrated, but they are still good. The letdowns vs the Jets were really bad though. The game was on the line and they blew it. It wasn't all on them, though. We stunk in all 3 phases of the game. No run game. Our passing game was terrible. Defense suffered multiple letdowns and ST were putrid.

 

Hopefully we will sign or draft a lockdown corner to play opposite T White. Lorenzo and Kyle will need to be replaced too. Our front 7 is mediocre, so I'd like those replacements to be gamechangers.

 

That said, we need at least a couple really good receivers added and most of all, we must get a big upgrade to our OL. I've been noticing that Allen is scrambling far too much and that's when he makes bad throws and picks. Give him time and a solid run game and he will be pretty good.

[par73]

A  top-flight edge rusher is a huge need. Opposing QB's sit back and have way too much time to throw vs. the Bills. Frazier's passive approach doesn't help any, either.

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, par73 said:

A  top-flight edge rusher is a huge need. Opposing QB's sit back and have way too much time to throw vs. the Bills. Frazier's passive approach doesn't help any, either.

Given the talent in the next draft, and the zone where we appear to be picking, that’s a VERY real possibility. I know we need offensive talent that isn’t offensive, but be smart and get the best talent. 

[Augie]

47 minutes ago, tuckan said:

Yes you are correct.  My apologies to you.  No offense intended.....

Hey, to be clear, I was NOT implying you were part of the Eyore flood, it was just that point in time. 

[Thurman#1]

On 12/10/2018 at 10:00 AM, tuckan said:

They gave up an 85 yard drive and 60 yard drive in the second half.  Gangrene was 3 of 4 in the red zone.  75 percent is horrible.  They rank 25th in red zone defense.  Created one turnover today.  Seriously, did anybody thing they would hold a three point lead against a rookie QB coming of injury no less?  Please address these points before pointing to other parts of the team(offense, special teams) which we can all agree were less than stellar.....

We have a post count?  

 

 

Good defenses have bad games. 

 

Hell, the 2000 Ravens defense allowed the Jags to score 36 on them and the Jets to put up 524 yards. The '85 Bears defense allowed the 2-14 Bucs to score 28 and the Dolphins 38, and they let the Vikes accumulate 445 yards. 

 

Am I saying the Bills defenses compare to those all-time greats? No, of course not. But you can always find a bad game or two. Saying a D didn't have a great game doesn't mean they aren't a great defense.

 

And when a team like the Jets gets three drive starts in Buffalo territory, on the BUF 32 (field goal on a 3 yard drive), the BUF 46 (field goal on an 11 yard drive) and the BUF 8, (TD on an 8 yard drive), you can't put a lot of the blame on that defense for allowing 27 points. Not to mention that they started a 4th drive in Buffalo territory at the 45 and the Bills allowed them four yards and a punt.

 

The defense wasn't the problem. I don't see them as the best in the league, but top five? Yeah, probably.

 

The D has had the 30th best average position of drive start and handed back to the offense the 8th best. If you average all the drives out it doesn't mean all that much but what it means is the offense gets awful field position somewhat rarely while the defense gets it somewhat consistently. And those drive start stats (Football Outsiders) haven't even been updated to include the Jets game yet.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

That's really not true.

 

Our time of possession is roughly league average.

 

The defense is good, not great. They need to add an edge rusher to approach elite status.

 

 

Time of possession depends on many things, including number of drives, amount of time they hold on to the ball, etc. 

 

The D is tied for facing the 7th most drives, they're 2nd in the league in terms of yards allowed per drive, best in the league in fewest plays allowed per drive and 2nd in terms of time of possession allowed per drive.

 

Fair enough, maybe, to say they're not great but they're damn good.

[Elite Poster]

We didn't lose because of the defense but for a team that thumps their chest about defense and uses endless assets on that side of the ball... They have to close it out. 

[tuckan]

7 hours ago, Augie said:

 

And my apologies to you if I jumped on you in the flood of....”Eyorism”. People tend to overreact with every loss. I’d been hearing it all day long. Big picture, I’m good as long as Josh keeps improving. If he fails, I’d still give this FO another crack in time for another QB, as I like the direction (despite what others whine about). QB is a crap shoot. Period. But I will hold out hope we’ve got ours! 

We have our QB.  That is to say he has the potential to be a championship level QB.  Now will the Bills develop him and nurture him in the correct way?  Time will tell....

6 hours ago, Augie said:

Hey, to be clear, I was NOT implying you were part of the Eyore flood, it was just that point in time. 

No worries.

[Bill from NYC]

14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

And while I agree that a lot of OLB snaps are lost to nickel CB's nowadays.........I think they can find a way to keep him on the field all the time.   

 

He may not be able to improve his instincts at MLB but he can hone his skills as a pass rusher and in man coverage.    Those positions tend to be more about physical gifts and developing them.   

I completely agree. If a linebacker is gifted enough he will see the field, even in this passing league. LBs Mack and Smith on the Bears are so good that it is scary. Those two are both modern LBs and throwbacks at the same time imo and worth the price of admission.

 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

They can't get a stop when you need them too

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

They can't get a stop when you need them too

Maybe. But the Bills defense was second only to the Bears in yards allowed this week. We outgained the Jets by 100 yards and stil found a way to lose that game.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

The average drive start for the Jets was close to midfield. 

 

You arent going to give up a lot of yards with this being the case. 

 

A good chunk of that yardage came on the Jets last two drives when the Bills defense couldn't get off the field. 

 

I agree with the OP. They are overrated by a lot of fans here. They are a solid unit, but a great one? Not even close.

 

Need to upgrade the pass rush and find a better way to approach the 3rd down situations. Because they suck at getting off the field on 3rd down.

I agree that they played on a short field but even with that the Jets only had 20 points right up until the last drive. The long pass over Tre Whites shoulder was just a perfect throw and catch. While frustrating for sure, there wasn’t much he could do about it. 

[Stank_Nasty]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The average drive start for the Jets was close to midfield. 

 

You arent going to give up a lot of yards with this being the case. 

 

A good chunk of that yardage came on the Jets last two drives when the Bills defense couldn't get off the field. 

 

I agree with the OP. They are overrated by a lot of fans here. They are a solid unit, but a great one? Not even close.

 

Need to upgrade the pass rush and find a better way to approach the 3rd down situations. Because they are probably a middle of that pack defense at getting off the field on 3rd down.

 

Getting another good pass rusher in here will help.

They are 12th in the league in 3rd down%. So not that bad really. 

 

I think the main thing separating them from solid to very good is the pass rush you talked about. They are actually tenth in the nfl in sacks. But it’s too hot and cold. They come in spurts. No consistency. 

[auburnbillsbacker]

How can the defense be overrated when no one believes they are a great defense.  People don't care about where we are ranked.  They have a reputation for being above average and they are above average.  They are properly rated in my opinion. 

[Dave Allen]

The defense is very good. One thing I'd like to see is the addition of an elite talent on line. They're solid, but they could use a franchise pass rusher or tackle. 

[LSHMEAB]

6 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Time of possession depends on many things, including number of drives, amount of time they hold on to the ball, etc. 

 

The D is tied for facing the 7th most drives, they're 2nd in the league in terms of yards allowed per drive, best in the league in fewest plays allowed per drive and 2nd in terms of time of possession allowed per drive.

 

Fair enough, maybe, to say they're not great but they're damn good.

Those are good stats to counter overall time of possession and I'm always ready to accept new data.

 

Nevertheless, the DATA shows that the RZ defense sucks and I'm not buying the "tired" argument as an excuse for that.

 

And I think we all agree that the defense is good. Great they are not.

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

 

Getting another good pass rusher in here will help.

Been saying that all season.

 

Huges is a nice pass rusher, but getting long in the tooth. Lorax is a nice player, but he's OLD.

 

If we're gonna continue to play Frazier ball, we damn well better get another player in the front four that can create pressure without blitzing because Frazier is allergic to it.

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I agree that they played on a short field but even with that the Jets only had 20 points right up until the last drive. 

Isn't that kind of like saying the Bills were winning right up until that last drive?

 

Unfortunately, that last drive counted.

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

It was a nice throw from Darnold.

 

Some posters already mentioned it, but the 3rd down TD to Anderson should've never happened when Kyle Williams for whatever reason dove at Darnolds legs when he had no shot at him. If he simply stayed on his feet and contained him there is no TD there. 

 

Same goes for the 4th down TD for the Jets.

Edmunds, who counties to struggle at the MLB position completely overplayed the run and missed a golden opportunity to stuff them and prevent go ahead TD.

Sounds about right.

 

And agreed. Need another pass rusher opposite Hughes or perhaps inside. 

 

Everyone wants to go offense in the first round this year, but I guarantee BPA is going to be a pass rushing defensive lineman. Take him, whoever it is, IMO.

I understand the impulse, but I think they're basically OK on d-line next season and desperately need offensive talent. In a perfect world, they'd trade back in the first and get an extra second, and in order take OT (1st), WR (2nd), D-line (2nd), CB (third round), TE (fourth), RB (fourth),  G/C (5th), WR (5th), S (6th) and BPA after that. 

[billsfan89]

Is the defense the best defense in the league? No. Is the defense a top 10 unit in the league? Yes. Is the defense a top 5 unit in the league? Arguable. The defense to me ranks somewhere in the 4-8 range. Its a dam good unit maybe even a borderline elite unit, however it is not the best in the league. I think there is much potential as the young players get their wings this season to take the unit into next year and with an upgrade at one or two positions and some depth additions the defense can be firmly in the top 3 units in the league. 

[row_33]

16 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Is the defense the best defense in the league? No. Is the defense a top 10 unit in the league? Yes. Is the defense a top 5 unit in the league? Arguable. The defense to me ranks somewhere in the 4-8 range. Its a dam good unit maybe even a borderline elite unit, however it is not the best in the league. I think there is much potential as the young players get their wings this season to take the unit into next year and with an upgrade at one or two positions and some depth additions the defense can be firmly in the top 3 units in the league. 

 

you have watched all 32 teams and can form a ranking based off this?

 

[billsfan89]

3 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

you have watched all 32 teams and can form a ranking based off this?

 

 

I have watched all 32 teams play this season in at least one game so I have at least given the eyeball test to each team once. You can look at defensive stats and defensive analytics to compare how the Bills grade out generally. I feel confident in saying that there aren't 10 defensive units better than the Bills. Right now I would say that the Bears, Cowboys, and Ravens defenses are better than the Bills. Then there are about 4-5 that are in that arguable similar range. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by billsfan89

[Joeziehmer]

Special teams is terrible and McDermott has not made any calls on firing Danny Crossman.  Or making room for any changes or adjustments nepotism is a hard pill to swallow for Bills fans.  

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Joeziehmer said:

Special teams is terrible and McDermott has not made any calls on firing Danny Crossman.  Or making room for any changes or adjustments nepotism is a hard pill to swallow for Bills fans.  

 

McDermott isn't going to throw the guy under the bus. He isn't that kind of guy. There is little to be gained by firing him right now. Wait until the offseason and try to get a guy like Dave Toub to jump ship or maybe Joe DeCamillis when the Jaguars staff gets blown up. 

[row_33]

D has been the best part of the season, along with hope at QB for the future

 

 

[nedboy7]

We are a great team. I think our record proves that. 

[billsfan89]

33 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

McDermott isn't going to throw the guy under the bus. He isn't that kind of guy. There is little to be gained by firing him right now. Wait until the offseason and try to get a guy like Dave Toub to jump ship or maybe Joe DeCamillis when the Jaguars staff gets blown up. 

 

People kind of forget with 3 games left there is very little a coaching change can accomplish. A coach has 3 weeks to implement new techniques and schemes, that just isn't likely to do much if anything. A change early in the season at least offers the team a chance to change scheme with months to turn things around. If this team was in a playoff push I would say they should fire the ST coach as you have to try and do something even if it is on the margins. But there is no need for such a worthless move in a lost season. Fire the coach in the off-season.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

Is the defense the best defense in the league? No. Is the defense a top 10 unit in the league? Yes. Is the defense a top 5 unit in the league? Arguable. The defense to me ranks somewhere in the 4-8 range. Its a dam good unit maybe even a borderline elite unit,

 

 

 

No.  It's not.

 

This borderline elite D gave up 4th Q TD drives of 11 plays/85 yards and 9 plays/61 yards---against the NY Jets----to lose the game.

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

No.  It's not.

 

This borderline elite D gave up 4th Q TD drives of 11 plays/85 yards and 9 plays/61 yards---against the NY Jets----to lose the game.

True for sure but what are you comparing them to? Some fantasy dream?  Go ahead and look at the other defenses this past weekend.