Culture and the Process do not equal talent

[Foreigner]

You guys can cry all you want about needing to change the  Culture and a new Process but it is the talent that wins games.

 

The big bad talented Pats are awaiting next, with  Tom Brady's new bad boy play thing Josh Gordon's 100 receiving yards

yesterday. I guess Gordon was not good enough for a try out with the Bills because he didn't fit the culture.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

I think I've read that somewhere.......

[Foreigner]

Better to have the 6th round draft pick Ray Ray catching passes.

[Bill_with_it]

Gordon wasnt good enough for 31 other teams either. If you think he would behave as he is on the Patriots with is then I dont know what to say.

[RiotAct]

What?!?  Yes they do.

[Jobot]

7 minutes ago, Bill_with_it said:

Gordon wasnt good enough for 31 other teams either. If you think he would behave as he is on the Patriots with is then I dont know what to say.

 

It doesn't take a genius to be dumbfounded by the truth to this.. Makes me believe that I could legit run an NFL franchise and be the only team competing with NE.  Maybe it's not so tough after all?

[hondo in seattle]

Culture+process+talent=championships.

 

You need all of them.  We're missing talent.   And I don't know how good the process is actually.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

So Allen , Dawkins, White, Edmunds, Philips, Milano, Johnson along with McCoy, Kyle, Hughes, Star, Poyer .... Don't have talent??

 

 

[RochesterRob]

39 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

You guys can cry all you want about needing to change the  Culture and a new Process but it is the talent that wins games.

 

The big bad talented Pats are awaiting next, with  Tom Brady's new bad boy play thing Josh Gordon's 100 receiving yards

yesterday. I guess Gordon was not good enough for a try out with the Bills because he didn't fit the culture.

 

 

  Josh has towed the line to this point but the season is not complete just yet.  Gordon is being a "model" citizen because it is Brady and Bill B with a chance to get a ring.  Nothing more than that.  Put Gordon on any other team and Gordon will put himself ahead of the team.  Pretty simple.

[K-9]

Gordon should thank Edelman.

[Dablitzkrieg]

I just wanted to say thank you for your Captain Obvious moment 

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Luck helps.  Any long time Bills and Sabres fan knows that.

[Fadingpain]

54 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Culture+process+talent=championships.

 

You need all of them.  We're missing talent.   And I don't know how good the process is actually.

You may need them all to win a championship, but the are not all equally weighted.

 

I'd say lots of raw talent gets you 90% of the way there.  Culture and process gets you the final 10% of the way home, and is the difference between, say, losing an AFC championship game and being a Superbowl champion.

 

When you have process and culture but not talent, you are the Bills in 2018.  About a 4 win team, maybe.

 

 

[Soda Popinski]

60+ million in dead cap space doesn't equal talent 

[Foreigner]

I was called a troll the beginning of the year for knocking McDermott and Beane. Practically giving away all our

talent; and people so glad Tyrod was gone. And the people so glad Watkins, Woods and Goodwin are gone, 

enjoy what is left of the 32nd  Offense in the NFL.

 

Well now we got a QB that has started 4 times since 2010, and signed off the street. Along with McDermott and

Beane enjoy Monday night, that is if they don't flex it.

[QCity]

Tantrum Tuesday's have really been entertaining this year 

[Aussie Joe]

10 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

I was called a troll the beginning of the year for knocking McDermott and Beane. Practically giving away all our

talent; and people so glad Tyrod was gone. And the people so glad Watkins, Woods and Goodwin are gone, 

enjoy what is left of the 32nd  Offense in the NFL.

 

Well now we got a QB that has started 4 times since 2010, and signed off the street. Along with McDermott and

Beane enjoy Monday night, that is if they don't flex it.

 

 

I can’t recall a positive comment you have made here ..,perhaps you can point me in the direction of a few?

 

If the team is as inept as you say, then why come here every day to proclaim it?

 

Couldn’t you find something more productive to do to utilise your time?

Edited October 23, 2018 by Aussie Joe

[Foreigner]

You are reading it buddy, you are reading it, so just change the channel.

[Bing Bong]

4 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

If the team is as inept as you say, then why come here every day to proclaim it?

It is inept. I haven't checked out of football this early since 2012. Apathy just sucks when the Bills are entertainment. While I think we are going in the right direction my personal annoyance if you will with this season is we have zero idea about what Josh Allen can do. And that's a huge waste of a year if he turns out JaMarcus Russell

bad. This season is opportunity cost.

[Foreigner]

And by the way, just read a story by Rich Hammond out of California about how happy the Rams are

having Robert Woods, with Woods saying about him and Goodwin "Sometimes the ball didn't find us,

because it was a different kind of Offense". 

[Bing Bong]

Just now, Foreigner said:

And by the way, just read a story by Rich Hammond out of California about how happy the Rams are

having Robert Woods, with Woods saying about him and Goodwin "Sometimes the ball didn't find us,

because it was a different kind of Offense". 

We had a great offense with those guys who cares about the glorious passing yards we seem to highly correlate with wins. It's about 1st downs.

[ColoradoBills]

17 minutes ago, QCity said:

Tantrum Tuesday's have really been entertaining this year 

 

I like that.  Should be a Stickied Thread every week to put all these insights.

[Aussie Joe]

6 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

And by the way, just read a story by Rich Hammond out of California about how happy the Rams are

having Robert Woods, with Woods saying about him and Goodwin "Sometimes the ball didn't find us,

because it was a different kind of Offense". 

 

So should they have kept Tyrod or not?

[HomeskillitMoorman]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:27 PM, Foreigner said:

You guys can cry all you want about needing to change the  Culture and a new Process but it is the talent that wins games.

 

The big bad talented Pats are awaiting next, with  Tom Brady's new bad boy play thing Josh Gordon's 100 receiving yards

yesterday. I guess Gordon was not good enough for a try out with the Bills because he didn't fit the culture.

 

 

 

Yeah, but can those guys recite Psalm 91 off the top of their head like Peterman can?

[Mark Vader]

22 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

And by the way, just read a story by Rich Hammond out of California about how happy the Rams are

having Robert Woods, with Woods saying about him and Goodwin "Sometimes the ball didn't find us,

because it was a different kind of Offense". 

So you are saying that you wanted the Bills to pay Woods more than what the Rams offered him?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:30 PM, Mr. WEO said:

I think I've read that somewhere.......

 

...first I've heard of it...innovative..............

[ctk232]

57 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

I was called a troll the beginning of the year for knocking McDermott and Beane. Practically giving away all our

talent; and people so glad Tyrod was gone. And the people so glad Watkins, Woods and Goodwin are gone, 

enjoy what is left of the 32nd  Offense in the NFL.

 

Well now we got a QB that has started 4 times since 2010, and signed off the street. Along with McDermott and

Beane enjoy Monday night, that is if they don't flex it.

Not commenting on the troll bit, but were you expecting to win the SB this year? Did any part of our playoff berth last year seem convincing? If so, what parts of that team that still remained at the beginning of this year still gave you hope for anything more than what we are seeing this season? Not making excuses here - there are much better ways to compete and still tank, but if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like. Most importantly, results are not overnight, and take closer to two/three full seasons of roster additions/movement to see end results. 

 

We might have given away "talent" or at least better skill players than what we currently have, "talent" is up for debate. But even if we retained almost all of last year's team (excluding Richie and Wood retiring), it's unlikely we are anymore or less successful this year. In fact, TT behind this line would be tragic in all likelihood. What matters is how this team performs after they address the offense and build the roster they want/need. Makes no sense to judge the team at present as no competent individual would claim this to be an end result, and anyone thinking that it's remotely close to the end result should just stop watching this season altogether. Patience is a hard thing to preach given the current state of the team, but I'm really happy some on this board are no where near the FO.

Edited October 23, 2018 by ctk232

[Straight Hucklebuck]

53 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

I was called a troll the beginning of the year for knocking McDermott and Beane. Practically giving away all our

talent; and people so glad Tyrod was gone. And the people so glad Watkins, Woods and Goodwin are gone, 

enjoy what is left of the 32nd  Offense in the NFL.

 

Well now we got a QB that has started 4 times since 2010, and signed off the street. Along with McDermott and

Beane enjoy Monday night, that is if they don't flex it.

You're 100% right. 

 

Anderson is the typical washed up, garbage QB that the Bills fixate and fawn over. How many times do we have to sign a Kelly Holcomb, Brian Brohm, Kevin Kolb, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Kyle Orton, Matt Cassel, Tyrod Taylor and hope against hope that they suddenly are the veteran presence we need to win the Super Bowl, or the guy our first round pick needs to learn from? 

 

They tried it again with AJ McCarron. A guy that was "never given his chance" and two days into training camp it was apparent that he was a checkdown artist. 

 

It's garbage and I'm sick of hearing it. It's insulting. 

 

McDermott was on WGR 550 on Monday saying first he'd love to score 50 points per game, then settled on what he really believes in - running the ball in snowy blue collar Buffalo. 

 

Again, its insulting. Blue collar. As we watch our friends in tropical New England outscore the Chiefs. 

 

And Week 7 of the NFL we are out there signing a career backup who is 35 year old fresh off a family vacation to come in and start for us. Our Coach is talking about how much Josh Allen will learn by watching DA conduct his walkthrough.  

 

Does Sean McDermott feel like a Coach who has anything for New England this weekend? No. He doesn't. He'll run draw plays on 3rd-12 to avoid turnovers. 

 

9 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Not commenting on the troll bit, but were you expecting to win the SB this year? Did any part of our playoff berth last year seem convincing? If so, what parts of that team that still remained at the beginning of this year still gave you hope for anything more than what we are seeing this season? Not making excuses here - there are much better ways to compete and still tank, but if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like. Most importantly, results are not overnight, and take closer to two/three full seasons of roster additions/movement to see end results. 

 

We might have given away "talent" or at least better skill players than what we currently have, "talent" is up for debate. But even if we retained almost all of last year's team (excluding Richie and Wood retiring), it's unlikely we are anymore or less successful this year. In fact, TT behind this line would be tragic in all likelihood. What matters is how this team performs after they address the offense and build the roster they want/need. Makes no sense to judge the team at present as no competent individual would claim this to be an end result, and anyone thinking that it's remotely close to the end result should just stop watching this season altogether. Patience is a hard thing to preach given the current state of the team, but I'm really happy some on this board are no where near the FO.

We have the 32nd ranked offense in the league at 11.6 ppg. 

 

Last by a full 1.5 points and the Cardinals started out with with 6 points in the their first two games. 

 

Believe us, we know we can't expect anything here in Buffalo, that we should just shut up and be grateful for a team. It's getting really old. 

 

McDermott is insulting talking to us about learning from 35 year old career backups, that culture is important than strategy, that they are trying to build a culture here. You're getting your teeth kicked in every other week. 

 

Its absurd.  

[QCity]

41 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Not commenting on the troll bit, but were you expecting to win the SB this year? Did any part of our playoff berth last year seem convincing? If so, what parts of that team that still remained at the beginning of this year still gave you hope for anything more than what we are seeing this season? Not making excuses here - there are much better ways to compete and still tank, but if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like. Most importantly, results are not overnight, and take closer to two/three full seasons of roster additions/movement to see end results. 

 

We might have given away "talent" or at least better skill players than what we currently have, "talent" is up for debate. But even if we retained almost all of last year's team (excluding Richie and Wood retiring), it's unlikely we are anymore or less successful this year. In fact, TT behind this line would be tragic in all likelihood. What matters is how this team performs after they address the offense and build the roster they want/need. Makes no sense to judge the team at present as no competent individual would claim this to be an end result, and anyone thinking that it's remotely close to the end result should just stop watching this season altogether. Patience is a hard thing to preach given the current state of the team, but I'm really happy some on this board are no where near the FO.

 

Great post and 100% correct. I will you give you a piece of advice - don't bother trying to explain this right after a blowout loss. This is peak whining phase because the realization that this year's team isn't going anywhere has finally sunk in.

[K-9]

The mistake people are making in misconstruing the terms "culture" and "process" is that they are not mutually exclusive of talent. All coaches want to establish their own cultures with their own processes with the most talented players available. 

 

Additionally, and I've said it a million times, all the talent in the world means nothing without the football character necessary to develop it. 

[boater]

On 10/22/2018 at 1:27 PM, Foreigner said:

Josh Gordon's 100 receiving yards yesterday.

Aren't we Captain Hindsight.

 

I suppose if you worked the front office last summer we'd be 4-3.

 

I'm in a high level meeting now. But when I get out I'm calling Pegs to ask why you aren't in charge.

[billsfan89]

You need talent to win, but you also need a culture and structure for that talent to fit into. Both from a general locker room perspective and from a X's and O's perspective. I think the Dead Cap and Trade ups for Allen and Edumonds made the ability to build a 2018 roster compromised. They had to go cheap at O-line and WR and the team handled the QB situation poorly (Maybe the biggest sin.) 2019 will be the season where they have no excuses. Their young cheap rookie QB is in place, they have the cap space, and they have another draft class to build the talent along the offense and patch some defense needs if they exist. 

[SoTier]

On 10/22/2018 at 3:01 PM, Soda Popinski said:

60+ million in dead cap space doesn't equal talent 

 

That's nobody's fault but McDermott and his henchman Beane.   McDermott has mismanaged the team talent since he wrested control of player personnel from Whaley before the 2017 draft, and Beane has been totally complicit in deconstructing the team and has mismanaged cap since he was hired.  About 25 or 30% of the dead cap money ($13.6 million) comes from voluntary and health-related retirements, so those don't count.   Most of the dead cap dollars (about $32 million) comes from these players McDermot traded away: Darby, Dareus, Glenn, Ragland, Taylor.   All of them except Taylor are starters on playoff contending teams, and Taylor is significantly better than Nate Peterman, AJ McCarron, or Derek Anderson -- and maybe better than all of them combined.  Then there's another nearly another $6 million in dead cap space that Beane wasted on bringing in Corey Coleman and AJ McCarron for a few days' or weeks' try outs before sending them packing.

 

[SoTier]

3 hours ago, ctk232 said:

Not commenting on the troll bit, but were you expecting to win the SB this year? Did any part of our playoff berth last year seem convincing? If so, what parts of that team that still remained at the beginning of this year still gave you hope for anything more than what we are seeing this season? Not making excuses here - there are much better ways to compete and still tank, but if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like. Most importantly, results are not overnight, and take closer to two/three full seasons of roster additions/movement to see end results. 

 

We might have given away "talent" or at least better skill players than what we currently have, "talent" is up for debate. But even if we retained almost all of last year's team (excluding Richie and Wood retiring), it's unlikely we are anymore or less successful this year. In fact, TT behind this line would be tragic in all likelihood. What matters is how this team performs after they address the offense and build the roster they want/need. Makes no sense to judge the team at present as no competent individual would claim this to be an end result, and anyone thinking that it's remotely close to the end result should just stop watching this season altogether. Patience is a hard thing to preach given the current state of the team, but I'm really happy some on this board are no where near the FO.

 

Do you bother to follow the rest of the NFL at all or do you only watch the Bills demonstrate their ineptitude every week and lap up all the excuses coming from the usual Bills propaganda sources?  There is absolutely no question that the players the Bills allowed to leave in FA or traded away are significantly more talented than the players with whom the Bills replaced them (and yes, that includes both Tre White and Tremaine Edmunds, the only two who even come close).  If you don't think so, then it's just sour grapes and/or blind loyalty to McDermott and Beane.

• Woods is tearing up the league in LA. 
• Gilmore has become the Patriots' lock-down CB. 
• Glenn is Andy Dalton's new best friend. 
• Goodwin was on his way to becoming a star for the 49ers when he had Garappolo throwing to him.  He still lights up the board on occasion even with CJ Beathard throwing to him.  
• Watkins shines whenever he gets the opportunity in a star-studded KC offense which features different players almost every week. 
• Preston Brown, Marcel Darius, Reggie Ragland, and Ronald Darby are all season-long starters for play off contending teams. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by SoTier

[John from Riverside]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:01 PM, Soda Popinski said:

60+ million in dead cap space doesn't equal talent 

You can pretty much end the thread with this true statement

[Victory Formation]

3 hours ago, ctk232 said:

Not commenting on the troll bit, but were you expecting to win the SB this year? Did any part of our playoff berth last year seem convincing? If so, what parts of that team that still remained at the beginning of this year still gave you hope for anything more than what we are seeing this season? Not making excuses here - there are much better ways to compete and still tank, but if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a rebuild, and this is what rebuilds look like. Most importantly, results are not overnight, and take closer to two/three full seasons of roster additions/movement to see end results. 

 

We might have given away "talent" or at least better skill players than what we currently have, "talent" is up for debate. But even if we retained almost all of last year's team (excluding Richie and Wood retiring), it's unlikely we are anymore or less successful this year. In fact, TT behind this line would be tragic in all likelihood. What matters is how this team performs after they address the offense and build the roster they want/need. Makes no sense to judge the team at present as no competent individual would claim this to be an end result, and anyone thinking that it's remotely close to the end result should just stop watching this season altogether. Patience is a hard thing to preach given the current state of the team, but I'm really happy some on this board are no where near the FO.

I don't trust them with the offense and I don't like Daboll, our only hope is McDermott fires him but that will be his third coach in three years which in return would make me question if McD is mentally capable of building an offense to begin with. I'm beginning to think McD is really a glorified DC that should not be a HC in the NFL. 

[John from Riverside]

46 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

That's nobody's fault but McDermott and his henchman Beane.   McDermott has mismanaged the team talent since he wrested control of player personnel from Whaley before the 2017 draft, and Beane has been totally complicit in deconstructing the team and has mismanaged cap since he was hired.  About 25 or 30% of the dead cap money ($13.6 million) comes from voluntary and health-related retirements, so those don't count.   Most of the dead cap dollars (about $32 million) comes from these players McDermot traded away: Darby, Dareus, Glenn, Ragland, Taylor.   All of them except Taylor are starters on playoff contending teams, and Taylor is significantly better than Nate Peterman, AJ McCarron, or Derek Anderson -- and maybe better than all of them combined.  Then there's another nearly another $6 million in dead cap space that Beane wasted on bringing in Corey Coleman and AJ McCarron for a few days' or weeks' try outs before sending them packing.

 

Every time someone brings up the dead cap space situation I see some smart ass bring up that it is their own fault

 

No kidding it is their own fault....and it is also their own plan and just because it doesnt fit your needs it doesnt make it the wrong one....

 

If they go into next offseason with that 10 draft picks and 90 million in cap pace and come out of it with the needed players to get the offense turned around they will STILL be right.....and it will still be their fault that they had to clean up the past managment's messes when it came  to the their cap situation.......

 

ITs a rebiuld....live it...love it (or dont...I dont care)

[NoHuddleKelly12]

4 hours ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

Yeah, but can those guys recite Psalm 91 off the top of their head like Peterman can?

Can you “convert” this into an actual football insight? You’ve done your best on this and other threads, to turn this into some kind of a debate about spirituality and knocking any player for it, yet seemingly miss that each Bills’ player or coach, just like everyone else here, make personal decisions about faith, none of which  has anything whatsoever to do with their roster role or football acumen/ability. Although, isn’t it ironic that a Christian like Drew Brees plays at a high level for the “Saints?” That smells like a conspiracy to me for which Loomis and Payton should be fired—by your logic. C’mon man, I know you’re better than this kind of intellectually vacant posting. Can we talk ball ? now?

[row_33]

Starting off 2-6, getting kind of tight there to make the playoffs with that start