Can you ruin a rookie QB?

[Batman1876]

It’s a question that comes up all the time can playing a QB too soon or in adverse conditions ruin them?

 

Yes- they learn bad habits, lose confidence, get gun shy, hold the ball too long and expose themselves to injury, lose the faith of the team. 

 

No- the NFL is a tough league if you don’t survive early struggles then you were doomed from the start.

[COTC]

If I hit him hard enough in the head, he can be ruined. 

 

[BuffaloButt]

You've either got what it take to make it in the NFL or you don't.   It becomes pretty clear after 1 season of playing for most.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

I'm starting to think that next to goalies in professional ice hockey, professional quarterbacks are the next closest athlete group to be on the verge of breakdowns / difficulties.

1 minute ago, COTC said:

If I hit him hard enough in the head, he can be ruined. 

 

Bah!  Curly and Shemp Howard fared remarkably well, and they never wore helmets even!  ?

4 minutes ago, BuffaloButt said:

You've either got what it take to make it in the NFL or you don't.   It becomes pretty clear after 1 season of playing for most.

2 games for others?

[SoCal Deek]

By golly ....we’re sure as Heck gonna try!

[Orlando Tim]

I can name only one who I truly believe was ruined by his early coaching-RGIII. If he was allowed to sit and learn to be pocket passer then I think he would have been great but his coach told him just win instead of develop his game. So I certainly think a bad coach can ruin a QB if not simply starting him too soon.

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I can name only one who I truly believe was ruined by his early coaching-RGIII. If he was allowed to sit and learn to be pocket passer then I think he would have been great but his coach told him just win instead of develop his game. So I certainly think a bad coach can ruin a QB if not simply starting him too soon.

Sending him out on one leg to get further injured also hurt his career. 

[Rc2catch]

Leave the David carrs and a few others out of it and sure the bills themselves proved that a young quarterback with potential can be ruined. 

Look how many young “promising” talents we tossed out too early and totally ruined their careers. I’m a firm believer in a quarterback being shell shocked too early before ever building confidence in their game at the professional level. 

Now before I get blasted the likes of JP Losman, Trent Edwards and EJ Manual were never gonna be a top 15 elite kinda quarterbacks.

However I do believe if they were drafted by some other teams (not all) they would have had much more success in the league. 

With us they had terrible coaching and were put in very unreal situations. 

Those 3 for example were probably not starting material long term, however think Matt Schaub or maybe Blaine Gabbert kinda careers. Not a starter but a decent backup who could spot start with some success. 

However due to getting completely overmatched so early in their careers became shell shocked and never able to recover from it. And they never really played after buffalo. 

[stuvian]

Ryan Grigson may have ruined Andrew Luck so it isn't just rookies who get ruined. 

[TonyBeets]

David Carr is the only QB I feel was ruined.  In recent times anyway.

[TigerJ]

Depends on the QB.  Some are sufficiently tough mentally they can handle anything they have to endure.  Some aren't at first but have the potential to grow into a viable starting QB.  It's tough to know what you've got until it's too late in the case of a QB that needs to be handled a certain way.  Josh Allen seems to have a real good head on his shoulders.  I'm hoping he'll be OK whatever happens this season.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

This is stupid.  No.  No, you can’t ruin a rookie QB by starting him right away.  Josh will have his peaks and valleys this season, but there is no substitute for “being behind the wheel” as McCoach puts it.  I think he’ll be fine.  He seems like a kid who is confident and also mentally tough.

[aceman_16]

David Carr waves hello (after his record breaking 76 sack rookie season).

[Boca BIlls]

If a QB gets ruined he was never meant to be a franchise QB in the first place.

[C.Biscuit97]

Of course you can.  A lot more qbs have been ruined than made.  I didn’t like the Allen pick because guys with his track record rarely succeed in the nfl.  Imo, his best chance was to be eased into things and work at developing better habits in practice.

 

now, he is getting rushed into action with a bunch of ? around him and watch those bad habits start creeping out.  But at least he has a very successful OC to design plays for him.

[KD in CA]

Depends on the guy, which is why cocky dicks usually make the best QBs.

[NewEra]

We’re about to find out.  

 

My vote says Yes.  Not saying Allen will be ruined, but a qB can be ruined.  

[Augie]

42 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

This is stupid.  No.  No, you can’t ruin a rookie QB by starting him right away.  Josh will have his peaks and valleys this season, but there is no substitute for “being behind the wheel” as McCoach puts it.  I think he’ll be fine.  He seems like a kid who is confident and also mentally tough.

 

I wouldn’t say it’s stupid, but Josh might be if they slam his head off the turf often enough, like they did in preseason. I was thrilled he wasn’t in concussion protocol after that. 

[NoSaint]

Every player is different and pretty much none are slam dunks. Fit to scheme, talent around, personality fit, learning style, injuries, home life, and just dumb luck can all play part beyond raw skill levels. 

 

A guy like allen might be a HOFer in some spots and a train wreck in others. And it might not always be obvious which is which. Adverse conditions plus good coaching might be his magic formula 

[Cash]

I don't believe in a fait accompli for something as complex and major as this. I can't tell you who was ruined and who would've failed anyway, but I'm sure it's happened. 

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

I wouldn’t say it’s stupid, but Josh might be if they slam his head off the turf often enough, like they did in preseason. I was thrilled he wasn’t in concussion protocol after that. 

 

If the #7 overall pick is “ruined” by being the starting QB, then he most likely wouldn’t have made it as a franchise signal caller anyway.  Let’s drive the Ferrari that we keep in the garage!

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

Depends on the guy, which is why cocky dicks usually make the best QBs.

 

Is cocky dicks redundant? 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Batman1876 said:

It’s a question that comes up all the time can playing a QB too soon or in adverse conditions ruin them?

 

Yes- they learn bad habits, lose confidence, get gun shy, hold the ball too long and expose themselves to injury, lose the faith of the team. 

 

No- the NFL is a tough league if you don’t survive early struggles then you were doomed from the start.

Alex Smith and Jake Plummer are two that immediately come to mind. Had their teams not ruined them early, they would have had far more successful careers. David Carr was also a ruined QB that didn't make it out the other side. I think he would've been a good one. I don't know how many rookie QBs could survive getting sacked 76 times, but he did. Unfortunately there's no way that doesn't ruin you.

Edited September 13, 2018 by BullBuchanan

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

If the #7 overall pick is “ruined” by being the starting QB, then he most likely wouldn’t have made it as a franchise signal caller anyway.  Let’s drive the Ferrari that we keep in the garage!

 

I get that, but I’ll keep the Ferrari in the garage during the hail storm. We’ve got a serious mess on our hands here! I’d prefer to see it satabilized before putting the crown jewel at risk. At this point it is what it is, so I’ll just pray for the best! At the end of the day, it’s a game. 

[gobillsatthebeach]

You can ruin him by putting him behind an inferior offensive line that can't properly protect and risk serious  injury. Trading McCarron was a BIG mistake.

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by gobillsatthebeach

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I can name only one who I truly believe was ruined by his early coaching-RGIII. If he was allowed to sit and learn to be pocket passer then I think he would have been great but his coach told him just win instead of develop his game. So I certainly think a bad coach can ruin a QB if not simply starting him too soon.

 

 

He "just won" (and had an incredible rookie season)  BECAUSE of "his game". Did you not see him play in college?  That was his game. 

[Domdab99]

If he looks like Angelina Jolie in the 90s, I could for sure ruin him 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Domdab99 said:

If he looks like Angelina Jolie in the 90s, I could for sure ruin him 

?

[greeneblitz]

I'm sure those QBs with fragile personalities can be effected but for the most part I say no, you'll either be good or bad.

[Fadingpain]

1 hour ago, TonyBeets said:

David Carr is the only QB I feel was ruined.  In recent times anyway.

Have you considered that maybe he just wasn't as good as you initially thought?

 

 

 

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, greeneblitz said:

I'm sure those QBs with fragile personalities can be effected but for the most part I say no, you'll either be good or bad.

 

Those with fragile brains may also be affected. Slamming it off that turf gets old quick (as happened in preseason). As @Buffalogal pointed out earlier, Peterman is expendable. He was a placeholder, lost games be damned. I’d have preferred Josh after game 4, but here we are. Pray for the best. 

[Fadingpain]

26 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

Every player is different and pretty much none are slam dunks. Fit to scheme, talent around, personality fit, learning style, injuries, home life, and just dumb luck can all play part beyond raw skill levels. 

 

A guy like allen might be a HOFer in some spots and a train wreck in others. And it might not always be obvious which is which. Adverse conditions plus good coaching might be his magic formula 

Disagree.  Allen will rise or sink to the consistent level of his own ability.

 

A player might not enjoy success in the wrong environment or with the wrong coach or teammates, but his quality will shine through, if he has any to begin with.

 

Talent always finds a way to rise to the top.

 

People love to talk about Carr being ruined; maybe the guy wasn't nearly as good as people thought.  

 

If a young Aaron Rodgers was on the Bills team this year, does anyone think we wouldn't notice his remarkable skill set? 

 

Team oriented stats might be low but his personal capabilities would be plenty obvious for all to see.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Fadingpain

[Johnny Hammersticks]

17 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I get that, but I’ll keep the Ferrari in the garage during the hail storm. We’ve got a serious mess on our hands here! I’d prefer to see it satabilized before putting the crown jewel at risk. At this point it is what it is, so I’ll just pray for the best! At the end of the day, it’s a game. 

 

Okay, so which QB are you going to satabalize the team with without putting the “crown jewel” at risk?

 

Don’t worry....I’ll wait.

[Nick the Greek]

Trent Edwards was never the same after he took that huge hit to the head in Arizona. He seemed afraid in the pocket after that happened, and he became Captain Checkdown.

 

I don’t remember, but I think he was a rookie. So yes, they can be ruined.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Okay, so which QB are you going to satabalize the team with without putting the “crown jewel” at risk?

 

Don’t worry....I’ll wait.

 

I was hoping you would volunteer. I’ll thrown in half time orange slices and cookies after the game. Hmmmm? Enticing, I know.....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Rc2catch said:

Leave the David carrs and a few others out of it and sure the bills themselves proved that a young quarterback with potential can be ruined. 

Look how many young “promising” talents we tossed out too early and totally ruined their careers. I’m a firm believer in a quarterback being shell shocked too early before ever building confidence in their game at the professional level. 

Now before I get blasted the likes of JP Losman, Trent Edwards and EJ Manual were never gonna be a top 15 elite kinda quarterbacks.

However I do believe if they were drafted by some other teams (not all) they would have had much more success in the league. 

With us they had terrible coaching and were put in very unreal situations. 

Those 3 for example were probably not starting material long term, however think Matt Schaub or maybe Blaine Gabbert kinda careers. Not a starter but a decent backup who could spot start with some success. 

However due to getting completely overmatched so early in their careers became shell shocked and never able to recover from it. And they never really played after buffalo. 

 

In general, I think you've got good points.  A young QB can be ruined two ways:

1) By poor coaching, or by changing OCs and systems every year.  Examples of this would be Alex Smith and Sam Bradford.  Both eventually developed, but it took years longer than it should have.  Steve Young would be an earlier example of a QB hampered by poor coaching and dysfunction on his 1st team.

2) By simply failing to protect him adequately, so that he's physically injured and unable to play.  Matt Stafford and Andrew Luck would be examples of this.

There might be a third way, of having him become gun-shy or learning bad habits.  That would be more subject to debate.

 

One minor correction, Matt Schaub started for 6 solid years for Houston before falling apart in the 7th.   During those years, he passed for >4000 yds 3x, had completion percentages in the mid to high 60%s, had mid-7s to 8 ypa and controlled INTs.  So it's not at all correct to describe him as a "decent backup who could spot start; we should be so happy if Losman, Edwards, or Manuel (or for that matter if Blaine Gabbert) had careers like that.

 

3 minutes ago, Idandria said:

Trent Edwards was never the same after he took that huge hit to the head in Arizona. He seemed afraid in the pocket after that happened, and he became Captain Checkdown.

 

I don’t remember, but I think he was a rookie. So yes, they can be ruined.

 

2nd year

[sullim4]

This is a great question/thread.

 

I think you can absolutely ruin a rookie quarterback, and I think that goes for any position on the field other than the specialists.  Coaching and schemes matter A LOT in the NFL.  If your coaches aren't good teachers, or just don't connect with a player, that player is going to look really bad.  They will develop bad habits, learn to do things the wrong way, and potentially get to the point where they aren't recoverable.

 

It's the players that don't need coaching that can't be ruined.  Vets that know the ropes and rookies that have so much talent and football smarts that they can ignore poor coaching and just do their own thing.

 

In fact, I will go out on a limb and say that the Bills have had such poor drafts for the last 18 years precisely because they have poor coaching staffs that have "ruined" perfectly good rookies.  If these same players had been drafted by the Patriots*, or the Packers, would they have been busts?

[John from Riverside]

I think you can ruin them by playing them hurt......

 

The David Carr thing to me is an outlier when you have so many that have overcome in and gone on to very productive careers

[MAJBobby]

If he can be “ruined” then the reality is he was never going to he good and the reasons for “ruining” him are excuses made 

40 minutes ago, Idandria said:

Trent Edwards was never the same after he took that huge hit to the head in Arizona. He seemed afraid in the pocket after that happened, and he became Captain Checkdown.

 

I don’t remember, but I think he was a rookie. So yes, they can be ruined.

 

How did the Bills ruin him?  They didnt. He took a hit and got gun shy is that on the Bills or is that on the weak mental fortitude of the freaking player 

[Nick the Greek]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

If he can be “ruined” then the reality is he was never going to he good and the reasons for “ruining” him are excuses made 

 

How did the Bills ruin him?  They didnt. He took a hit and got gun shy is that on the Bills or is that on the weak mental fortitude of the freaking player 

It was a weird play in Arizona where the safety blitzed and was totally unblocked. Had Trent not been a rookie, maybe he would have picked it up. A QB with experience sees these things coming. A rookie may not, and can get blasted as a result.