Shaq Lawson on roster bubble

[BurpleBull]

2 hours ago, eball said:

I don't think we've seen the last of Shaq just yet.  By all accounts he appears to have "gotten the message" so I'm anxious to see how he performs in camp and preseason.

 

I'm just not a big fan of players who have to 'get the message' before they commit to turning the corner.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

I never said he was “bad”. Comparing his production to his salary and then comparing Lawson’s production to his salary tells me that at this very moment, Lawson is arguably more valuable to the team. Now if you asked me straight up who I’d pick to start at DE, without thinking salary cap, I’m taking Hughes all day long. Lawson is younger and cheaper. Now before 26livesinhismothersbasement started getting offended, I would have mentioned that

 

You're measuring only one statistic and using that to measure 100% of the value of a player.

 

Lawson is a value right now just because he's on his rookie contract.  When a guy on his rookie contract is on the bubble, especially a first round pick, that should be enough to show that his value to the team is low.  

 

Hughes with his big contract and not being let go even though his sack numbers are low.....that shows his value to the team is high.  If they were to cut Hughes, they would gain around $4 million in cap space.....instead they are keeping him.

 

[Seanbillsfan2206]

10 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

Yes it’s not all about the sacks; however, it’s a lengthy trend. Hughes had 4 sacks last season, 6 the season prior, and 5 the season before. If he’s not stout vs the run (which he’s not) and isn’t getting sacks, what’s he doing? Ah yes, creating “pressure” (except that’s not really happening either).  He’s certainly not racking up tackle totals either.

 

He must be a unicorn:  he’s awesome, but doesn’t get sacks, and doesn’t get tackles. He’s had a whopping 2 forced fumbles and zero fumble recoveries  over the last 31 games started. 

 

5 sacks/season over the last 3 seasons is Chris Kelsay territory. 

Holy **** somebody that gets it! I like Jerry Hughes I really do. One of the best trades in team history. But at some point you gotta ask yourself if his price tag is worth his production. This happens every year in the NFL. Being efficient in QB hurries doesn’t warrant a 10 mil a year contract in my opinion. But I’m not Brandon Beane. If we were to cut ties with Lawson I wouldn’t be too upset, I’m just saying, he’s cheap and he’s somewhat productive compared to what we’re paying him...

Edited June 20, 2018 by Seanbillsfan2206

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

1 hour ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You are simply not correct.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/jerry-hughes/5556

 

2017 PFF Grades

Overall

85.0

#20 ED

Elite

 

High Quality

 

Above Average

 

Average

 

Below Average

 

Poor

 

Rookie

 

Limited Information

 

@bobobonators

 

PFF (TIFWIW)

[Seanbillsfan2206]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You're measuring only one statistic and using that to measure 100% of the value of a player.

 

Lawson is a value right now just because he's on his rookie contract.  When a guy on his rookie contract is on the bubble, especially a first round pick, that should be enough to show that his value to the team is low.  

 

Hughes with his big contract and not being let go even though his sack numbers are low.....that shows his value to the team is high.  If they were to cut Hughes, they would gain around $4 million in cap space.....instead they are keeping him.

 

At least you can kinda see where I’m coming from. He’s a veteran that’s been on the team for awhile now and has shown some leadership values. Those are assets that Lawson doesn’t have 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You're measuring only one statistic and using that to measure 100% of the value of a player.

 

Lawson is a value right now just because he's on his rookie contract.  When a guy on his rookie contract is on the bubble, especially a first round pick, that should be enough to show that his value to the team is low.  

 

Hughes with his big contract and not being let go even though his sack numbers are low.....that shows his value to the team is high.  If they were to cut Hughes, they would gain around $4 million in cap space.....instead they are keeping him.

 

 

But, but, sacks!!!

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

At least you can kinda see where I’m coming from. He’s a veteran that’s been on the team for awhile now and has shown some leadership values. Those are assets that Lawson doesn’t have 

 

I do see where you're coming from.  

With the extra additions in FA and the draft, if Hughes doesn't increase production with his hurries or sack numbers....I would expect this would be his last year here.

[Seanbillsfan2206]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I do see where you're coming from.  

With the extra additions in FA and the draft, if Hughes doesn't increase production with his hurries or sack numbers....I would expect this would be his last year here.

Did we just become best friends?

[oldmanfan]

From all accounts he's slimmed down and is working his butt off.  Good for him, let's hope it translates into success.

 

It's a disease of Bills fans at time that they'd prefer to see a guy do bad vs. do good.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

Hes as good as gone because he’s old regime, which made bad decisions. This regime doesn’t make bad decisions. Zay Jones. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

No surprise to me.

 

Basically a one hit wonder in college on an awesome Clemson team.

 

I don’t think it’s a surprise to him based on what we are hearing about his off season. 

 

He has a chance to make the team... too bad Rex isn’t in some front office somewhere so they could peddle him off for maximum value.  

 

Hopefully hes worked his way to playing at potential 

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, bobobonators said:

 

I agree. Hughes has been outright bad for a bit now. Doesnt get enough pass rush and is bad vs the run. That combo equals a liability. 

That is demonstrably false. Plus he works as hard or harder than anyone on the team on each and every play. He's the only one to consistently run down plays from behind.

[Success]

I wish they weren’t quite so exacting about “their guys”.  Ragland is turning into a star, and Shaq looks like he could be a very solid starter, at worst.

 

Oh well.  Trust the process.

[Royale with Cheese]

9 minutes ago, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

Did we just become best friends?

 

Only if you don't take the last beer in the fridge and never replace it.  This has to be a give and take relationship.

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

Wrecks Ryan—the gift that keeps on giving.

Don't let him out of the building.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, K-GunJimKelly12 said:

Don't let him out of the building.

 

Is this thing on?

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Another Whaley gem.

 

Whaley's culpable by the nature of his GM position, but that pick was 110% a Rex Ryan production, IMO.    In fact, his son Sean probably made the pick and Daddy Rex said "Sure thing, I love Clemson!"...

[CommonCents]

42 minutes ago, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

Holy **** somebody that gets it! I like Jerry Hughes I really do. One of the best trades in team history. But at some point you gotta ask yourself if his price tag is worth his production. This happens every year in the NFL. Being efficient in QB hurries doesn’t warrant a 10 mil a year contract in my opinion. But I’m not Brandon Beane. If we were to cut ties with Lawson I wouldn’t be too upset, I’m just saying, he’s cheap and he’s somewhat productive compared to what we’re paying him...

I said this before last season, Hughes isn’t a guy that will get results on his own. He goes wide a lot and it’s hard to get home when the QB can simply step up or roll right. It’s imperative that the Bills get production from Murphy/Lawson. If that happens, look for Hughes to reach double digit sacks again. 

 

The middle of the line should be stout with the new additions and Edmunds can get up field as well. 

 

 

[bobobonators]

44 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

@bobobonators

 

PFF (TIFWIW)

 

PFF ranked Tyrod Taylor as the #12 Best Starting QB in the NFL in 2017. 

 

Im among the biggest TT fans but we all know he wasnt #12 in the NFL. 

 

We all watch Bills games. We all know what Hughes does and doesnt do; unfortunately its more of the latter and not the former the last few years. 

[BillsFan130]

Disappointing player so far.

 

He rightfully should have to compete for a spot on the 53 man roster as he hasn't shown a lot his first 2 years

[MJS]

2 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Underperforming based on what sack totals?  Right back to where your poor take began. Run with it. 

 

Come on, Jerry Hughes needs to step it up too. Anybody who thinks his play has been good enough the past couple of years are fooling themselves. He's certainly our best pass rusher and he needs to perform at a higher level.

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

Come on, Jerry Hughes needs to step it up too. Anybody who thinks his play has been good enough the past couple of years are fooling themselves. He's certainly our best pass rusher and he needs to perform at a higher level.

 

He has been good, but he also needs an inside push to help him get his numbers up which is one of the reasons why Star was signed.

[thebandit27]

Regarding Jerry Hughes, his sack numbers have been down the past 3 seasons, but that's not the whole story.

 

I can't find stats for 2017, but in 2016, he had 29 QB hurries, which ranked 9th in the NFL

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2016/

 

In 2015, he had 22 hurries, which ranked 25th

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2015/

 

Now compare that to 2014, a season in which he had 10 sacks...in 2014, Hughes had 21 hurries, which ranked 6th

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2014/

 

It appears that his pass rush ability hasn't really declined at all; he simply hasn't been finishing plays as much.  I guess I'd say that his game has dropped off a bit, but probably less due to his own play than due to much less help from other areas on the DL.

 

I don't know if that'll change with this offseasons' DL additions, but I can't put it all on Hughes.

[TheBeane]

3 hours ago, bobobonators said:

ESPN Bills reporter Mike Rodak believes 2016 first-round DE Shaq Lawson is "competing for a rotational role, if not for his 53-man roster spot entirely" this summer.

 

Rodak thinks the team could try and trade Lawson ahead of Week 1, especially once free agent pickup Trent Murphy (knee) is back to 100 percent opposite Jerry Hughes. Buffalo also has Eddie Yarbrough, Terrence Fede, and Owa Odighizuwa as rotational pieces. Lawson, the No. 19 overall pick by ex-coach Rex Ryan, has just six sacks across 21 career appearances.

 

-espn

 

I hope this is wrong and that Shaq is LIGHTS OUT this season and then have to pay him a substantial contract in a few years.  I highly doubt we get much more than a 4th rounder if we try to trade him.

[eball]

1 hour ago, BurpleBull said:

 

I'm just not a big fan of players who have to 'get the message' before they commit to turning the corner.

 

Good for you.  I'm not as proficient at immediately knowing whether someone is a lost cause or just in need of mentoring and guidance.

[LABILLBACKER]

Not surprised. Shaq is Kelsay 2.0

Cut your losses or try a trade. Let Odigy be Murphy's backup. Not only was Rex a bad coach but an awful evaluator of talent. 

[ColoradoBills]

15 minutes ago, TheBeane said:

 

I hope this is wrong and that Shaq is LIGHTS OUT this season and then have to pay him a substantial contract in a few years.  I highly doubt we get much more than a 4th rounder if we try to trade him.

 

I was just going to post asking what round pick they could expect for Shaq.

I would think a 4th for him would bring on a lot of teams, so I will say a 3rd could be got from someone.

[Success]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Not surprised. Shaq is Kelsay 2.0

Cut your losses or try a trade. Let Odigy be Murphy's backup. Not only was Rex a bad coach but an awful evaluator of talent. 

He doesn’t compare to Kelsay at all, on any level.

[IgotBILLStopay]

4 hours ago, bobobonators said:

ESPN Bills reporter Mike Rodak believes 2016 first-round DE Shaq Lawson is "competing for a rotational role, if not for his 53-man roster spot entirely" this summer.

 

Rodak thinks the team could try and trade Lawson ahead of Week 1, especially once free agent pickup Trent Murphy (knee) is back to 100 percent opposite Jerry Hughes. Buffalo also has Eddie Yarbrough, Terrence Fede, and Owa Odighizuwa as rotational pieces. Lawson, the No. 19 overall pick by ex-coach Rex Ryan, has just six sacks across 21 career appearances.

 

-espn

RODENT strategy: Create discord in the team if you can. Based off public comments by team officials, add two plus two - make 5 and insinuate things - If the SHI(r)T sticks - claim credit - if not, repeat process.

Edited June 20, 2018 by IgotBILLStopay

[nedboy7]

Oh man some more non news to fight over.  

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I was just going to post asking what round pick they could expect for Shaq.

I would think a 4th for him would bring on a lot of teams, so I will say a 3rd could be got from someone.

 

Kony Ealy fetched a 2nd round pick from NE after putting up back-to-back 5.0 sack seasons, but he also had a monster Super Bowl.

 

I think it would be reasonable to seek a R3/R4 pick for Shaq.

[eball]

13 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Not surprised. Shaq is Kelsay 2.0

Cut your losses or try a trade. Let Odigy be Murphy's backup. Not only was Rex a bad coach but an awful evaluator of talent. 

 

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this because I always liked Kelsay, but Kelsay would almost certainly have a place on a McD/Beane squad.  Exemplified effort and commitment.

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Total rebuild.

 

McB know exactly what kinds of players they want, and they didn't find many of them on the roster that Doug and Rex built. 

 

Yeah. Not really a surprise to see him on the block. He fit Wrex’s defense, but he’s not a fit in McD’s at all. 

[teef]

ze bubble...it explodes!

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

48 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

 

PFF ranked Tyrod Taylor as the #12 Best Starting QB in the NFL in 2017. 

 

Im among the biggest TT fans but we all know he wasnt #12 in the NFL. 

 

We all watch Bills games. We all know what Hughes does and doesnt do; unfortunately its more of the latter and not the former the last few years. 

 

Fair enough. 

 

I didn't know they ranked Taylor that high last year. I know PPF isn't the end all be all, but I think it's usually a decent barometer. 

 

I do think that Hughes can put up better numbers, but the don't forget that he was miscast in Rex's defense, and had little help last year. To say that he's been terrible, or something similar, is absurd IMO. His numbers over the last couple of years might make you look at his contract and say that he's not performing to to that level, but it's not all about sacks and tackles, or even pressures. And he was paid based on past performance, which was above average, in the right defense and with players around him playing well. He hasn't had either of those over the last 3 years. 

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

29 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Kony Ealy fetched a 2nd round pick from NE after putting up back-to-back 5.0 sack seasons, but he also had a monster Super Bowl.

 

I think it would be reasonable to seek a R3/R4 pick for Shaq.

 

Thanks bandit.  If they want to get rid of Shaq they got to go for a trade.  Cutting him outright costs too much dead money.

[thurst44]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

 

Whaley's culpable by the nature of his GM position, but that pick was 110% a Rex Ryan production, IMO.    In fact, his son Sean probably made the pick and Daddy Rex said "Sure thing, I love Clemson!"...

Or...just hear me out: Lawson was a highly rated prospect who was a four-star recruit who played lights out in the season he made it as a full-time player in college. Facts to back up this "hot take": every mock draft I could find online had him going between 8-19, Bears fans outside the Chicago draft were chanting his name for their #11 pick, the NFL.com scouting report had him with a Round 1 grade.

 

Personally, If he's clearly not giving his all, I could understand McD giving up on him as depressing as it would be to sell low. If he plays hard and isn't a total mess, I'd love the idea of a Hughes/Murphy/Lawson (on his initial contract)/Yarbrough rotation with Star taking up the middle and seeing if they can now dominate. 

 

Sorry, I'm just tired of the revisionist history. He's turned out a bad pick if he doesn't turn it around; however, he was not a stretch who was only drafted b/c of the Rex/Clemson connection. 

[BillnutinHouston]

4 hours ago, bobobonators said:

I thought Lawson was at least pretty solid vs the run. 

 

Agree. 

[Jasovon]

I Trust McDermott to know who he wants on his defense. If Shaq isn't the guy then so be it. 

[Cripple Creek]

5 hours ago, eball said:

I don't think we've seen the last of Shaq just yet.  By all accounts he appears to have "gotten the message" so I'm anxious to see how he performs in camp and preseason.

I’m a bit late to this party, but isn’t this what folks were saying last offseason?