Do we have the worst starting offensive line in the league?

[Ramza86]

It was a rhetorical question. We do. 

 

Im very worried for the safety of whoever is our QB. 

[JM57]

Great post. Ask a question you already think you know the answer to with nothing else to add. Thanks for contributing

[NewEraBills]

To me, this is a terrible question to ask.  It assumes we have a starting 5 already LOL.  Let's focus on getting talent for a starting 5 first, then we can assess how good or bad they are in comparison to others 

[Bing Bong]

15 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Great post. Ask a question you already think you know the answer to with nothing else to add. Thanks for contributing

You can still give an opinion dummy. Yes we have a horrible O line not to mention horrible WRs. If shady can do his best Barry Sanders impression we'll be decent if we acquire a solid MLB

2 minutes ago, NewEraBills said:

To me, this is a terrible question to ask.  It assumes we have a starting 5 already LOL.  Let's focus on getting talent for a starting 5 first, then we can assess how good or bad they are in comparison to others 

So between WR, QB, LB, and O line and our strong supposition  that we dump our draft capital for 1 QB, we probably add 1 late round OL best case scenario and some PS players. Can't see it changing very much.

[Bangarang]

0-16 confirmed

[NewEraBills]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

0-16 confirmed

Not really.  But dead QBs confirmed, most likely 

 

[GunnerBill]

There are 5 or 6 around the league worthy of consideration. Ours is in the conversation. 

[B-Man]

Do we have the worst starting offensive line in the league?

 

 

 

 

 

No.

 

 

 

.

[HOUSE]

Only on paper....

[NickelCity]

QB, LB, then nothing but OL. That's my vote, in order, for the entire draft. Just stock up on beef castles. 

[Buffalo716]

No

[nedboy7]

No it is the best. 

[Paul Costa]

Middle of the road. Cordy was a non factor last year Wood was average. Incognito was above average but turning 35 soon. Groy was as good as Wood two years ago. My hope is Miller can get back to his form from two years ago.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

It was a rhetorical question. We do. 

Im very worried for the safety of whoever is our QB. 

 

Back in ?2012? when Gailey was HC and had moved on from George Edwards to Dave Wannstadt (to the tune of much misplaced fan rejoicing),  we had Marcell Dareus in his 2nd year and signed FA Mario Williams, and folks on this board went absolutely crazy about how we now "had the best DL in the league on paper!"

 

Well, then we started playing games on turf on Sunday and our wonderful DL sure didn't look that great.

 

So let's hypothesize, for a second, that we have the worst OL in the league "on paper", having lost our starting Center and LG and having the R side of the line be a weak spot last year.  First, let's wait and see what happens in the draft and afterwards.  Second, let's remember that football games are played on turf, on Sunday, and that's when we're going to learn what this year's OL is really like - not before.

 

Sorry not to have a better answer, but that's going to be the situation any time you don't have 5 starters return, and it would apply even if we had signed two big name FA on the OL.

[maryland-bills-fan]

Here is an old post comparing a couple of good Bills lines with what we have at the moment.  Criteria are just the # of pro bowls and also the draft pick value spent on the line.    The present line is pretty poor compared to the past good lines.   I think TT hid some of the faults of the line,  because he was a threat to scramble for big gains and  that retarded the pass rush, lead to containment strategies and he often had a spy watching him.   I don't think you can win for long with a rushing QB.

 

How does the Bills o-line stack up against those of previous glory years?
I think there were 3 previous periods when the Bills were good. The first was I the old AFL days but that is hard to evaluate since there were two leagues that for many years (until Broadway Joe) not evenly matched. The other two were the “Electric company” years and the K-gun years.
There are a range (and I mean a range) of opinions as to how the Bills should proceed in this year's draft and the run from “Trade this and next year's draft for sure-thing QB X” (etc), through, trade up a little maybe, to “work on a foundation and draft QB in the 2^nd or 3^rd round. You might wonder how much in the way of higher draft picks those good Bills teams spent on their offensive line.
Different eras, different styles of play were involved but where the players were drafted and how dominate they were compared to their peers gives an indication. Here is some rough information.
=================================================
The Electric Company.
Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.
OT....................Foley,...................1^st (#26)..............1
OG..................McKenzie.............2^nd (#27)...............1
C......................Montler.................2^nd (#32).............0

OG.................DeLamielleure.........1st (#26)..............6

OT...................Green......................5^th (107)............0

TE....................Seymour................1^st (#7)...............0



A few comments. The pro bowl is a bit of a popularity contest and some great players were shut out by some of the all time greats. Seymour was drafted as an offensive tackle but played TE and as a 6^th O-lineman helped block for OJ. …. Okay, a summary


5of 6 drafted in the first two rounds

cost was 3360 total “draft points”
8 pro bowl spots


==============================================
1992 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT...............Wolford …...............1^st (#20)..................3
OG..............Richert.......................1^st (#16)..................2
C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Parker........................3^rd (#69)..................0
OT …...........Ballard.....................11^th (283).................2
TE...............McKeller....................9^th (227)..................0


A few comments: Hull came over from the Generals where he signed before the 1983 NFL draft. McKeller only played one year of college football and was a basketball player who was a good receiver in the “K” gun offence.


2 of 6 (more like 3 if Hull included) drafted in the first two rounds
cost was 2065 points not including Hull
10 pro bowl spots.


================================================== ==


1995 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT.............Fina..........................1^st (#27).....................0
OG............Brown......................1^st (14^th).....................8 pro bowls !

C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Ostroski.................10^th (271)....................0

OT …..........Parker.....................3^rd (60)........................0

TE................Johnson.................2^nd (61)......................0



3 of 6 ( 4 if Hull included) drafted in the first 2 rounds

cost was 2372 not counting Hull
11 pro bowls spots






2018 Bills (as of 4/9/18)

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2^nd (#63)...................0

OG............Incognito....................3^rd (#81)....................4

C …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

…..............Boline.........................4^th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2^nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5^th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6^th (#174)..................0



2 of 6 in the 1^st 2 rounds
412 cost
4 pro bowl spots
=========================================
 

2018 Bills (as of 4/10/18) If Incognito actually has retired

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2^nd (#63)...................0


OG …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

C...............Boline.........................4^th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2^nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5^th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6^th (#174)..................0


2 of 6 in the 1^st 2 rounds
227 cost
0 pro bowl spots
 

 

So if you want to give Ken Hull a rating of middle the 2^nd round (420 points)?? these would come out as



Electric Company..........3360

1992 Bills.....................2465
1995 Bills.....................2792
2018 Bills......................412 or 227

Okay, you can find o-line gems in the lower rounds. BUT, I really think we have to pay serious attention to the o-line before we are back in the big time

Edited April 21, 2018 by maryland-bills-fan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, maryland-bills-fan said:

Here is an old post comparing a couple of good Bills lines with what we have at the moment.  Criteria are just the # of pro bowls and also the draft pick value spent on the line.    The present line is pretty poor compared to the past good lines.   I think TT hid some of the faults of the line,  because he was a threat to scramble for big gains and  that retarded the pass rush, lead to containment strategies and he often had a spy watching him.   I don't think you can win for long with a rushing QB.

 

How does the Bills o-line stack up against those of previous glory years?
I think there were 3 previous periods when the Bills were good. The first was I the old AFL days but that is hard to evaluate since there were two leagues that for many years (until Broadway Joe) not evenly matched. The other two were the “Electric company” years and the K-gun years.
There are a range (and I mean a range) of opinions as to how the Bills should proceed in this year's draft and the run from “Trade this and next year's draft for sure-thing QB X” (etc), through, trade up a little maybe, to “work on a foundation and draft QB in the 2^nd or 3^rd round. You might wonder how much in the way of higher draft picks those good Bills teams spent on their offensive line.
Different eras, different styles of play were involved but where the players were drafted and how dominate they were compared to their peers gives an indication. Here is some rough information.
=================================================
The Electric Company.
Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.
OT....................Foley,...................1^st (#26)..............1
OG..................McKenzie.............2^nd (#27)...............1
C......................Montler.................2^nd (#32).............0

OG.................DeLamielleure.........1st (#26)..............6

OT...................Green......................5^th (107)............0

TE....................Seymour................1^st (#7)...............0



A few comments. The pro bowl is a bit of a popularity contest and some great players were shut out by some of the all time greats. Seymour was drafted as an offensive tackle but played TE and as a 6^th O-lineman helped block for OJ. …. Okay, a summary


5of 6 drafted in the first two rounds

cost was 3360 total “draft points”
8 pro bowl spots


==============================================
1992 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT...............Wolford …...............1^st (#20)..................3
OG..............Richert.......................1^st (#16)..................2
C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Parker........................3^rd (#69)..................0
OT …...........Ballard.....................11^th (283).................2
TE...............McKeller....................9^th (227)..................0


A few comments: Hull came over from the Generals where he signed before the 1983 NFL draft. McKeller only played one year of college football and was a basketball player who was a good receiver in the “K” gun offence.


2 of 6 (more like 3 if Hull included) drafted in the first two rounds
cost was 2065 points not including Hull
10 pro bowl spots.


================================================== ==


1995 Bills


Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT.............Fina..........................1^st (#27).....................0
OG............Brown......................1^st (14^th).....................8 pro bowls !

C..................Hull........................... ..??.........................3
OG..............Ostroski.................10^th (271)....................0

OT …..........Parker.....................3^rd (60)........................0

TE................Johnson.................2^nd (61)......................0



3 of 6 ( 4 if Hull included) drafted in the first 2 rounds

cost was 2372 not counting Hull
11 pro bowls spots






2018 Bills (as of 4/9/18)

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2^nd (#63)...................0

OG............Incognito....................3^rd (#81)....................4

C …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

…..............Boline.........................4^th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2^nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5^th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6^th (#174)..................0



2 of 6 in the 1^st 2 rounds
412 cost
4 pro bowl spots
=========================================
 

2018 Bills (as of 4/10/18) If Incognito actually has retired

Position............player........,,,,,,,....draft pick............pro bowls.


OT............Dawkins.......................2^nd (#63)...................0


OG …...........Gray.............................UFA.. ........................0

C...............Boline.........................4^th (#111)..................0

OG............Ducasse......................2^nd (#61)...................0

OT............Mills............................5^th (#163)..................0

TE............Clan............................6^th (#174)..................0


2 of 6 in the 1^st 2 rounds
227 cost
0 pro bowl spots
 

 

So if you want to give Ken Hull a rating of middle the 2^nd round (420 points)?? these would come out as



Electric Company..........3360

1992 Bills.....................2465
1995 Bills.....................2792
2018 Bills......................412 or 227

Okay, you can find o-line gems in the lower rounds. BUT, I really think we have to pay serious attention to the o-line before we are back in the big time

 

Really good post!  Thank you for making it!

 

 

[Ramza86]

1 hour ago, JM57 said:

Great post. Ask a question you already think you know the answer to with nothing else to add. Thanks for contributing

 

You are very welcome sir. I just wanted to vent. 

 

I have a crystal ball...All i see is sacks...hurries and losses and maybe the NFLs first death on the field. 

 

RIP QB. 

[JoeF]

55 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

You can still give an opinion dummy. Yes we have a horrible O line not to mention horrible WRs. If shady can do his best Barry Sanders impression we'll be decent if we acquire a solid MLB

So between WR, QB, LB, and O line and our strong supposition  that we dump our draft capital for 1 QB, we probably add 1 late round OL best case scenario and some PS players. Can't see it changing very much.

 

You can look at this any way you want -- but the Bills have starting experience at every position.  

 

Dawkins - 11 Games and accounted well at LT

Miller- Natural LG with 2 full seasons at RG

Bodine - 4 years in Cincy

Ducasse - Starter

Mills - Starter

Groy and Newhouse

 

Granted the only potential star I see is Dawkins.  However, Miller was developing well until the system was changed and this system may be a better talent fit.

 

They have the draft -  and this is a deep tackle and guard class with guys like Geron Christian, Martinas Rankin, Scott Quessenberry, Bradley Bozeman (Daboll's C at Alabama) and Joseph Noteboom available in the 3rd and 4th round.   So the later rounds aren't normal camp fodder for O-Line in this draft.

 

Then we will have post draft cuts.

I am choosing to be a bit more optimistic, just like I am at Linebacker. Where, I think they have a deal in place with Dansby that he can shop until draft day (Minter and Compton already signed elsewhere but Dansby has not)..but I wouldn't be surprised if next Saturday afternoon they announce a deal with Dansby whether they get a LB or not.  A young MLB like Jack Cichy or Josey Jewel (assuming we are drafting one in the 3rd or 4th) will need a mentor.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Paul Costa said:

Middle of the road. Cordy was a non factor last year Wood was average. Incognito was above average but turning 35 soon. Groy was as good as Wood two years ago. My hope is Miller can get back to his form from two years ago.

So you're saying that: 1. We didn't improve over what we had last year at LT.  2. We have to find replacements for "average" LG and C, who, by definition, are worse players than the guys they failed to beat out. 3. But maybe a guy who got beat out by a journeyman RG will get better, even though he previously got worse.

O.K., you convinced me!  Middle of the road it is.

1 hour ago, JoeF said:

You can look at this any way you want -- but the Bills have starting experience at every position.  

 

Dawkins - 11 Games and accounted well at LT

Miller- Natural LG with 2 full seasons at RG

Bodine - 4 years in Cincy

Ducasse - Starter

Mills - Starter

Groy and Newhouse

 

Granted the only potential star I see is Dawkins.  However, Miller was developing well until the system was changed and this system may be a better talent fit.

 

They have the draft -  and this is a deep tackle and guard class with guys like Geron Christian, Martinas Rankin, Scott Quessenberry, Bradley Bozeman (Daboll's C at Alabama) and Joseph Noteboom available in the 3rd and 4th round.   So the later rounds aren't normal camp fodder for O-Line in this draft.

 

Then we will have post draft cuts.

I am choosing to be a bit more optimistic, just like I am at Linebacker. Where, I think they have a deal in place with Dansby that he can shop until draft day (Minter and Compton already signed elsewhere but Dansby has not)..but I wouldn't be surprised if next Saturday afternoon they announce a deal with Dansby whether they get a LB or not.  A young MLB like Jack Cichy or Josey Jewel (assuming we are drafting one in the 3rd or 4th) will need a mentor.

 

 

And if that's how they line up to start the season, I'll just note their PFF grades last year:

Dawkins - Average (but a rookie, so that's promising)

Miller - Poor

Bodine - Poor

Ducasse - Average

Mills - Poor

You could probably upgrade by subbing Groy (Average) at C or LG. And, of course, I can't believe that they'll go into the season with an O line this bad. But let's be honest ... it is bad right now.

[BillsFan4]

How can anyone possibly even answer this question yet? 

 

We havent training camp. Or preseason, let alone any regular season games yet. So we haven't even seen any teams offensive line on the field yet. 

 

We haven't even had the draft yet... (and its supposed to be a good draft for interior linemen and centers (to some degree)). 

 

As of now we dont even know if the guys we have we have penciled in now will even be the Bills starters when the season begins. Beane very well could draft 2 O-linemen that earn starting jobs, and/or sign some veteran guys when team trim down their rosters. 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by BillsFan4

[Formerly Allan in MD]

It may not be the worst but it's really bad.  If we blow our draft capital on a quarterback instead of using it to fix the OL and other things, we'll deserve what we get when that fine young quarterback, that we gave up the store for, goes down early on or becomes shell shocked should he have to "learn" the game behind that so called line.  Grab the likes of Lauletta or White and sensibly develop what we have.

[Victory Formation]

3 hours ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

You can still give an opinion dummy. Yes we have a horrible O line not to mention horrible WRs. If shady can do his best Barry Sanders impression we'll be decent if we acquire a solid MLB

So between WR, QB, LB, and O line and our strong supposition  that we dump our draft capital for 1 QB, we probably add 1 late round OL best case scenario and some PS players. Can't see it changing very much.

 

Kelvin Benjamin has superstar potential, I get it he is not fast but he out muscles defenders with his strength and can constantly get open as a possession guy, highly underrated. We need a speedy burner, those guys can be found in the 3rd round and later.

 

Our OL is not as bad as it seems, if we add a guy like Price or Wynn the only weakness on our line is RT and a solid RT can be had in the 4th, so once again I don't see the concern here, we have a lot of picks.

 

See if Rosen or Mayfield drop, if so give up #96 and a 2019 pick and move up, if not stay put and pull the trigger on Mason Rudolph and keep all our picks.

 

The sky is not falling.

[The Frankish Reich]

16 minutes ago, NewDayBills said:

 

Kelvin Benjamin has superstar potential, I get it he is not fast but he out muscles defenders with his strength and can constantly get open as a possession guy, highly underrated. We need a speedy burner, those guys can be found in the 3rd round and later.

 

Our OL is not as bad as it seems, if we add a guy like Price or Wynn the only weakness on our line is RT and a solid RT can be had in the 4th, so once again I don't see the concern here, we have a lot of picks.

 

See if Rosen or Mayfield drop, if so give up #96 and a 2019 pick and move up, if not stay put and pull the trigger on Mason Rudolph and keep all our picks.

 

The sky is not falling.

I agree about the WR corps. It's incredibly shallow, but Benjamin is better (IF healthy) than anything we had last season, and I expect the Naked Ninja (Zay) to be much improved. But the O line ... that's pretty awful. It wasn't good last year, and the idea was to keep Richie and Wood and try to improve a little in the other positions, but now that's shot to hell too.

[MJS]

Sounds like a big guess. Do you know the state of all other 31 offensive lines?

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

Sounds like a big guess. Do you know the state of all other 31 offensive lines?

Let's just say that tomorrow we find out that 2 veteran/highly-paid starting O linemen on some other team - any other team - go down for the season with torn ACLs. Wouldn't we assume that that team's O line just got a whole lot worse? That's essentially what happened here, and the starting point was "mediocre at best."

[Doc Brown]

Watch the Bills trade up for Nelson and the whole board crashes within 5 seconds.

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Let's just say that tomorrow we find out that 2 veteran/highly-paid starting O linemen on some other team - any other team - go down for the season with torn ACLs. Wouldn't we assume that that team's O line just got a whole lot worse? That's essentially what happened here, and the starting point was "mediocre at best."

 

Absolutely. But that doesn't make them the worst in the league. To do that you have to actually know all of the starting linemen in the league and how they play together. There are probably some people out there that know that, but anyone else is just guessing.

 

So, in response to the OP, no, it is not a rhetorical question. Probably nobody here knows for sure.

 

And it's April. We still have the draft. We still have a long off-season to go.

 

I will agree that our offensive line is not looking good, but I assume Beane and McDermott will be doing what they can to make it better and bring in more competition. Or, we'll have a subpar offensive line for a year until we can continue to address it next off season.

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

Absolutely. But that doesn't make them the worst in the league. To do that you have to actually know all of the starting linemen in the league and how they play together. There are probably some people out there that know that, but anyone else is just guessing.

 

So, in response to the OP, no, it is not a rhetorical question. Probably nobody here knows for sure.

 

And it's April. We still have the draft. We still have a long off-season to go.

 

I will agree that our offensive line is not looking good, but I assume Beane and McDermott will be doing what they can to make it better and bring in more competition. Or, we'll have a subpar offensive line for a year until we can continue to address it next off season.

OK, makes sense to me. I think we're all agreed that it will be a subpar line in 2018, even if some late fixes (and coaching) make it a little better than it is on paper right now.

[MJS]

39 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

OK, makes sense to me. I think we're all agreed that it will be a subpar line in 2018, even if some late fixes (and coaching) make it a little better than it is on paper right now.

 

Yep. Probably. I do think we'll be able to win games, though.

 

We won a a decent amount of games the past few years despite having no passing game to speak of, so difficiencies can be masked. That's what good coaches do. Belechick is a master at covering up his team's difficiencies.

Edited April 22, 2018 by MJS

[jahnyc]

The o-line looks bad right now and likely is one of the worst, if not the worst, in the NFL.  We will see what the draft brings.  One can argue that we need upgrades at four of the five spots on the o-line.  

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

It was a rhetorical question. We do. 

 

Im very worried for the safety of whoever is our QB. 

 

 

Ok forget that "a rhetorical question" doesn't require an answer....couldn't you have just done a search and added this gem take to the other "our O-line sucks" threads?

 

Come on...

[Bing Bong]

2 hours ago, NewDayBills said:

The sky is not falling

I'm optimistic, our offense couldn't get much worse. Our defense, mainly secondary set us apart. ANY improvement in offense be it QB, coordinator makes us better than last year

[Nick the Greek]

There are 32 teams in the league. Some are horrid, like the 0-16 Browns. How anyone can argue their  o-line is better than ours is beyond me.. but don’t let that get in the way great post. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

 

A new way of starting a thread about all the holes we have to fill.

 

 

[Scorp83]

8 hours ago, Paul Costa said:

Middle of the road. Cordy was a non factor last year Wood was average. Incognito was above average but turning 35 soon. Groy was as good as Wood two years ago. My hope is Miller can get back to his form from two years ago.

It honestly was nothing wrong with Miller...Dennison was a stubborn old man, that wanted to do things his way. I heard he had an issue with Miller cause he's a little undersize... smh. Glad Dennison is gone!

 

But I do think our O-line stinks! Lol... I find it funny we all wanted Mills gone... now we need him. More then ever just for depth ?

7 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

A new way of starting a thread about all the holes we have to fill.

 

 

?????? posts like this sucks the life out of a forum

[Fadingpain]

9 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

It was a rhetorical question. We do. 

 

Im very worried for the safety of whoever is our QB. 

Our offensive line doesn't even exist yet.

At least not in full.

Let's see who the guys are before we declare them the worst in the NFL.

 

 

[RFL]

Ask Shady how valuable the OL is, or TT when he was running for his life. If Ritchie in fact doesnt return, we got problems.  Not addressing our weaknesses in this draft would be foolish. Thinking that you can just pick up guys from the cut pile would get you fired if I was the owner.

[NewEraBills]

We will more than likely draft two linemen.  The way I see it, even if we draft a QB our key to success in 2018 is not to put games on that rookie or AJ's shoulders.  Our key to success in 2018 will still be to run the football a lot.  I see us also grabbing an additional HB either in the draft or after cuts.  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

9 hours ago, Scorp83 said:

It honestly was nothing wrong with Miller...Dennison was a stubborn old man, that wanted to do things his way. I heard he had an issue with Miller cause he's a little undersize... smh. Glad Dennison is gone!

 

But I do think our O-line stinks! Lol... I find it funny we all wanted Mills gone... now we need him. More then ever just for depth ?

?????? posts like this sucks the life out of a forum

 

I think is an accurate analysis of this thread. 

 

Is he not saying that we have so many holes to fill ?