Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) Interesting - http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/05/01/nfl-draft-dallas-cowboys-war-room-jerry-jones-peter-king The plan was to offer Dallas’ second-round and third-round picks, 34 and 67 overall, to teams in the late teens and early twenties—Indianapolis, Buffalo, the Jets, Houston—but then swap out the third-rounder for Dallas’ fourth-rounder, 101 overall, starting in the mid-twenties. Cincinnati (24), Pittsburgh (25), Seattle (26), Green Bay (27) and Kansas City (28) all got called. Lukewarm responses, mostly. Buffalo (19) said no to the offer of the second and third. The Jets said no. Edited May 2, 2016 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The Bills asked for Dallas's 1st in 2017. Jerry Jones now says he regrets not doing it. I wonder what our draft would have looked like with no 1st but 2 2nds and 2 3rds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The Bills asked for Dallas's 1st in 2017. Jerry Jones now says he regrets not doing it. I wonder what our draft would have looked like with no 1st but 2 2nds and 2 3rds. Weird that he wouldn't have given up a 1st. I can't recall any trades for 1sts where there isn't at least a future 1st rounder given up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Weird that he wouldn't have given up a 1st. I can't recall any trades for 1sts where there isn't at least a future 1st rounder given up. I agree...To jump down 17 spots in the draft, they offered an extra 3rd rounder !!!! That is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chef4131 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 its the reverse of the JP Losman trade we gave up a #2 and next years #1 to Dallas. This trade still "haunts" me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 We still would have Ragland maybe, but no Shaq. He might have gone to the JESTS, Cinci, or Pitt. Could have had Jack or Jaylon Smith. Ouch! Rags might have gone to Jax. I don't see much at the top of the 3rd between where Dallas and The Bills picked that is very exciting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Glad Whaley said no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 Glad Whaley said no I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... Would they have been any better than the players we chose? Maybe quality over quantity...I don't know college players that well so I can't say for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 its the reverse of the JP Losman trade we gave up a #2 and next years #1 to Dallas. This trade still "haunts" me Especially considering Aaron Rodgers was available when we should have picked in the first round of the next years draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) Would they have been any better than the players we chose? Maybe quality over quantity...I don't know college players that well so I can't say for sure. The general consensus was that this was a deep draft and that rounds 2-4 was the "sweet spot." The Bills have a ton of needs that they had to ignore in this draft because of a lack of picks, including safety, RT, guard, cornerback, and a slot WR. It's simply irresponsible IMO to sit tight and take Lawson at 19, then trade two #4s for Ragland (granted one was next year's), instead of getting Ragland at 34 (or Jack better yet) and three other good young players who could round out the roster. That kind of thinking ("he was the guy we wanted") cost Buddy Nix his job. Unfortunately, I think the Lawson pick will cost Whaley his job. Edited May 2, 2016 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estelle Getty Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... Your responses make me seem normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I felt the talent really dropped off around pick 60, that's when you stopped seeing guys who were viewed as borderline 1st round picks and started seeing picks like Aguayo. Pick 67 is Dallas' pick, they took Maliek Collins, who is a nice prospect but far from a sure thing. It would have hurt if we moved down to 34 and saw Ogbah and Dodd go 32-33, though we still could have ended up with Ragland and someone like Noah Spence or Jarran Reed (who went at pick 49). I think Dallas needed to toss in the '17 1st. Something like #34 - '17 1st for #19 & a couple of 4ths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Your responses make me seem normal. Well played, Ms. Getty, well played. I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... Ok Coach, lets get this over with before it becomes a whole thing. Pretend the Bills make the trade with the Cowboys. Lets assume the Vikes take Shaq, and Treadwell has torn an achilles and can never play football again, and everything else went down the way it went down (even though it's unrealistic). Who are these FOUR PLAYERS you are picking up that are available when we use those picks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Weird that he wouldn't have given up a 1st. I can't recall any trades for 1sts where there isn't at least a future 1st rounder given up. towards the back end of the first falling to the top of the second you sometimes see a stockpile of seconds and thirds. JUST a 3 seems low for that kind of fall though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDIGGZ Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Jerruhhh was overruled by his son just like with Manziel. Otherwise he was ready to do it. 2nd, 3rd, next year's 1st would have been an amazing get for a 19th overall pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 No way I would have swapped our first for a 2nd and 3rd. Now give me next year's first and a second or third and we're cooking with gas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Jerruhhh was overruled by his son just like with Manziel. Otherwise he was ready to do it. 2nd, 3rd, next year's 1st would have been an amazing get for a 19th overall pick yea - i probably wouldve been good with a 2, 3, and a day 2 pick next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Coach, if you are arguing that we should have accepted their 2nd and 3rd for the #19 overall pick, then I not only question your Bills fandom, but also your cognitive skills in general. Bills/Whaley were right, their compensation demand for #19 was spot on, we do not have an incompetent Front Office anymore. Get on board. Go Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iinii Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Shoulda. Coulda. Woulda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... makes sense, that's the only reason we picked him. Probably would have lasted a few more rounds if we didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Glad Whaley said no Me too. That's not good value. You could have made a case that 34, 67 & 101 was worth 19, but I wouldn't have taken that either. Those are moves you make if you want to bail out of a pick. I see no reason why I'd prefer that package over Lawson. He was definitely a target for me at 19 and I did not think he had a great chance of making it there. But I agree with Whaley's counter of 34 and next year's 1st. Another Romo injury and that would be another high pick. Lynch isn't going to change that dynamic in year 1. If Jerry was serious he'd have either made the Whaley trade or countered with another offer. He didn't because he was just looking for a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Good for the Bills not taking this lowball offer. They should have gotten the 'girls 2nd, plus two picks, maybe 4th round this year and 1st next year. The 'girls 2nd and 1st next year was not enough to let Dallas move up 15 spots. That's at least a 3-pick deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... LOL so 3-4 fourth round players that are lucky to make the roster for 0-2 years are better than Shaq Lawson?? LOL Only way I trade out of #19 is for a #1 and #2 THIS year................and even then................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 To give up a first rounder and not get one in return is insane. Coach Tuesday says weird things some times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubes Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I have almost no doubt that, if the Bills accepted the offer (assuming it includes the 'Girls next year's 1st), Whaley would have packaged a couple of those picks to move back up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The general consensus was that this was a deep draft and that rounds 2-4 was the "sweet spot." The Bills have a ton of needs that they had to ignore in this draft because of a lack of picks, including safety, RT, guard, cornerback, and a slot WR. It's simply irresponsible IMO to sit tight and take Lawson at 19, then trade two #4s for Ragland (granted one was next year's), instead of getting Ragland at 34 (or Jack better yet) and three other good young players who could round out the roster. That kind of thinking ("he was the guy we wanted") cost Buddy Nix his job. Unfortunately, I think the Lawson pick will cost Whaley his job. So, we desperately need an edge rusher, Shaq is there at 19, every single draft guru has him as a top 15 overall talent, and Whaley loses his job for drafting him. Ok, got it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The bills most likely did not expect Shaq Lawson to drop like he did.....who was widely considered a top 10 talent. Just to good to pass up. Then they got Ragland who they were considering with their 19th pick in the 2nd round anyway. All good. I loved the way the draft played out for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 So, we desperately need an edge rusher, Shaq is there at 19, every single draft guru has him as a top 15 overall talent, and Whaley loses his job for drafting him. Ok, got it... Shaq is not an edge rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I had three guys I wanted at #19... Rankins, Lawson or Decker. If one of them was there and I was in Doug Whaley's shoes someone was going to have blow my socks off to get that pick. I mean this year's 2nd and 4th and next year's 1st and 3rd or something. I know that is way over what the chart says but that was what it would have taken. If none of those 3 were there I would have favoured a trade back. The next tier of players who were a fit for me were Ragland, Lee, Reed, Spence all of whom might have been there at 34 (and in fact of those 4 only Lee wasn't). In that scenario this year's 2nd and 3rd and a 2nd next year might have been enough for me to slide back or just a 2nd this year and a first next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Shaq is not an edge rusher. Which is good since Rex doesn't rush from the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) Which is good since Rex doesn't rush from the edge. I agree. But he's an edge setter, which Rex definitely needs. I just don't know if that position justifies a premium draft pick. From my standpoint, Shaq Lawson - the athlete he is and the position he plays - is something you can find in rounds 2-4. He's a non-elite athlete at a non-premium position. Edited May 2, 2016 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) I agree. But he's an edge setter, which Rex definitely needs. I just don't know if that position justifies a premium draft pick. From my standpoint, Shaq Lawson - the athlete he is and the position he plays - is something you can find in rounds 2-4. He's a non-elite athlete at a non-premium position. Everyone who disagrees with you (and they are many) will point to his versatility, which is where they/I believe your analysis falls short by saying he's a player we drafted to do X. The truth is (according to many other people, including our coach and GM), we drafted him to do X, Y, Z, A, B and C. I'm imagining a cross between Sean Ellis, Lamar Woodley and Mo Wilkerson. Shaq's size enables him to do many things. Edited May 2, 2016 by The Big Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I agree. But he's an edge setter, which Rex definitely needs. I just don't know if that position justifies a premium draft pick. From my standpoint, Shaq Lawson - the athlete he is and the position he plays - is something you can find in rounds 2-4. He's a non-elite athlete at a non-premium position. Then why was his consensus draft slot in picks 10-18? I don't think a single draftnik had him falling out of the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 Then why was his consensus draft slot in picks 10-18? I don't think a single draftnik had him falling out of the first round. I can't tell you why the draftniks thought he'd go higher - I just don't agree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I can't tell you why the draftniks thought he'd go higher - I just don't agree with it. So if I get this straight - each draftnik who's invested months into film study & draft preparation ranked Lawson at roughly #15, and his comparisons are to guys who were drafted in the mid 1st round in prior drafts - yet according to your analysis, he's no better than a mid 3rd rounder? By that standard he'll have equal contribution & production to Adolphus Washington? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thurst44 Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 I'm not. If you assume Ragland at 34, they wouldn't have had to spend two 4s to move up. So that's FOUR PLAYERS we could've drafted instead of one Shaq Lawson. But he's Rex's son's friend though, so... He also had the most tackles for loss in all of college football, so that's not exactly all there is to him. In this scenario, they probably would have got Ragland with the first pick and Reed with the second, and who knows who from there on in. I would have been happy either way (and this would have meant more ridicule for the Cowboys, and I'm always game for that), but this was not the path that was taken. Bills still had one of the best drafts in all of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 2, 2016 Author Share Posted May 2, 2016 So if I get this straight - each draftnik who's invested months into film study & draft preparation ranked Lawson at roughly #15, and his comparisons are to guys who were drafted in the mid 1st round in prior drafts - yet according to your analysis, he's no better than a mid 3rd rounder? By that standard he'll have equal contribution & production to Adolphus Washington? Yup. I have a different opinion than most. I can live with it. As for Washington, he was one of the worst athletes at the entire Combine, in terms of testing metrics. I hope it was just a bad week for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Unbelievable......cant believe there is someone actually trashing this 1st round pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heitz Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Has anyone put the value chart to this proposed trade? Would be interesting to see (I'll look into it later - kinda TBD'ing between that other pesky Monday thing - work ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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