Greenberg - A Jets Fan - Pushing Back Against The Allen Hate

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, H2o said:

I found this interesting. And of course the rest of the ESPN 🤡's yuck it up a bit later in the segment, but this has been my stance on Josh for forever. All of the idiots with an ax to grind continually spew the same crap, on their same crap shows, pandering to their same crap audience. Josh is a top 2-5 QB in this league, 5 being the absolute basement. They constantly act like he is the one costing this team W's. They don't talk about the 3 games he's led his team to a lead in the final 2 minutes, only to have McDermott's defense piss it away. No, it's his 1 INT two quarters before that which caused them to lose. Idiots. This team would have, AT THE MOST, 3 wins this year without him. At the most. Allen is not blameless. He's not perfect. But let's not act like he's not out here setting records in history of the NFL for things like total TD's, completing 68% of his passes this year, and leading the league in total TD's. 

 

 

 

 

AMEN and AMEN!!! 

 

Here's my post in the Coaching/QB Desert thread just now:  

 

The underlying premise of your entire post is that McDoesn'tKnow is actually contributing to our winning.  

Is he?  

 

Seems to just about everyone except for his most stubborn and ardent supporters, that he's a weak link, not something that propels this team forward, other than with the typical nonpalpable soft indicators like character, culture based upon "The Process," which to date absolutely no one has defined, not even him, etc.  

 

The counter argument is that it really shouldn't take very much to consistently get top performance from this offense, not only in the regular season, but also in the playoffs.   

 

That's something that we haven't seen with McDoesn'tKnow in charge.   To a whole lot of people we're getting about as little as possible from this assemblage of talent on offense.  What, Allen's going to be a 12th-ranked QB?  LOL, not a chance.  

 

As it has been posed in the past, McD's arrival preceded Allen's.  

 

Had Allen been here first, what are the odds that someone making the decision on which coach to hire, would have put McD on the short list?  That seems incredibly unlikely as he's a bad fit for that.  Simply because he was here first does not make him a good fit, nor does it mitigate, diminish, much less eliminate his liabilities to this team.  

 

The two, Allen and McD, simply aren't made for each other.  

[Not Applicable]

2 hours ago, balln said:

Kelly is probably on par w Donovan mcnabb . Which is really

weird to say.

 

jim Kelly was my hero as a kid and was the best qb in my mind. 
 

but now w time and stats. He really wasn’t that all Time great.

Jim Kelly is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Let me know if Donovan McNabb is ever inducted.

[CincyBillsFan]

18 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

What's up nerd. 

 

It's weird how sensitive people are about Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton - yet you're the most sensitive when people bring them up in their discussions.  You're no different than the posters you complain about.   There's three things guaranteed in life - Death, Taxes, and @C.Biscuit97 never missing an opportunity to criticize Allen.  It's no secret you're not a fan.  

There is one big difference, C.Biscuit97 is sensitive about Lamar & Cam ON A BUFFALO BILLS message board.  At least we Allen defenders have the good taste & common sense to defend Allen on a Bills message board and not in a Ravens or Panthers board.

 

 

 

[balln]

21 minutes ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

Jim Kelly is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Let me know if Donovan McNabb is ever inducted.

https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=KellJi00&player_id2=McNaDo00
 

prettttty darn similar. And mcnabb is crushing the rushing stats. Way lower INT. I know I know. It’s crazy. But I’m just saying. Jim also had Thurman Andre and Bruce and lofton…….

Edited December 7, 2023 by balln

[Not Applicable]

1 minute ago, balln said:

https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=KellJi00&player_id2=McNaDo00
 

prettttty darn similar. And mcnabb is crushing the rushing stats. Way lower INT. I know I know. It’s crazy. But I’m just saying. Jim also had Thurman Andre and Bruce and lofton…….

McNabb played in era where hits on the QB and bump-and-run coverage by DBs were virtually outlawed. You cannot statistically compare QB eras from the past with guys that spent the bulk of their careers post-2000.

[balln]

I don’t remember 86-96 being that significantly different than 99-11. But I just find it interesting how close their career passing stats are

[Not Applicable]

14 minutes ago, balln said:

I don’t remember 86-96 being that significantly different than 99-11. But I just find it interesting how close their career passing stats are

They were wildly different because tons of rule changes were implemented to hamstring defenses and juice up passing. There's a reason why Andy Dalton has more than 5000 yards passing than guys like Phil Simms and Troy Aikman.

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Kind of off topic, but can we acknowledge how insane it is that Mahomes spent his first four years with Tyreek Hill AND Travis Kelce in their prime, AND Andy Reid calling plays? I mean that is an all time supporting cast. Arguably the greatest speed WR of all time, arguably the greatest pass catching TE of all time, one of the greatest offensive play callers of all time. Even I didn't fully appreciate how absurdly good that situation was until seeing what Tyreek Hill has done in Miami. And that takes nothing away from Mahomes, his otherworldly talent that defenses simply weren't ready for was the engine of the whole thing.

 

The first year Mahomes had that supporting cast, Allen was throwing the ball to Kelvin Benjamin, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay 🤣 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

If josh finishes fairly strong and the team does well it’s gonna be the most out of nowhere monster season in history lol. The only context he’s talked about really is turnovers

[Chicken Boo]

9 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont think the point of that graphic is to say they are the best two QBS, as much as it shows Josh's numbers align very closely to (if not better than) Mahomes, yet Josh is constantly criticized and Mahomes is constantly worshipped.

 

Mahomes is a 2x league MVP, 2X Super Bowl champ and 2X Super Bowl MVP.

 

If Patrick retired tomorrow, he'd be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and would widley be considered a top 5 QB all time. 

 

I think he's more than earned the praise.  

[BigDingus]

This put a smile on a face before bed, thanks 😊 

[JustAnotherBillsFan]

7 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Haha, this Board crapping on Lamar as much as they claim others crap on Allen. 

I have to admit I was in the camp that thought Lamar could not be successful as a pass first QB but this season he has convinced me otherwise. 

 

Love Josh of course but have nothing but respect for Lamar.

[PatsFanNH]

12 hours ago, Success said:

 

Tired?

 

Think about it the last 3 years they made the SB twice and the AFCC Game 3 times.. they play longer than every team in the NFL right now.. That takes a toll on your body. 

[Bferra13]

6 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Mahomes is a 2x league MVP, 2X Super Bowl champ and 2X Super Bowl MVP.

 

If Patrick retired tomorrow, he'd be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and would widley be considered a top 5 QB all time. 

 

I think he's more than earned the praise.  

And Allen has earned all the criticism he gets? I think you're missing the point here. 

[Gregg]

38 minutes ago, Bferra13 said:

And Allen has earned all the criticism he gets? I think you're missing the point here. 

 

Allen gets criticism for turnovers but overall, he is praised as one of the best QB's in the league. He is also one of the most popular players in the league fans love to watch. As for Allen not yet winning a Super Bowl well that is because the Bills haven't been good enough as a team to get there yet. 

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Bferra13 said:

And Allen has earned all the criticism he gets? I think you're missing the point here. 

 

I'm not missing anything. 

 

Mahomes has already cemented his legacy.  There are no question marks left for him except how many more Lombardis or MVPs can he win? 

 

Josh still has some very big boxes to check.  Until then, he's going to be scrutinized more than the guy who's already at the finish line with the flag waving.    

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But Allen doesn’t get credit cuz his team has failed him and not made a SB.  It’s crazy, never seen a player get so much hate for not having the same SB resume as the guy widely considered to be the best ever 

 

 

Does he really not get the credit? Or is that just the paranoia of Bills fans?

 

Are there a lot of lists out there of the top five QBs that don't have Allen in there?

 

I googled "Top 10 QB list 2023". I later wanted some more recent ones so I re-adjusted for recency. Out of the first ten I opened how many would you guess had Allen outside of the top five?

 

That would be zero.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-qb-power-rankings-lamar-jackson-aaron-rodgers-both-crack-top-10-in-first-rundown-of-all-32-starters/

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/2023-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks-ranking-the-best-qbs-after-patrick-mahomes

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-quarterbacks-entering-the-2023-nfl-season

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/05/30/top-10-quarterbacks-qbs-ranked-right-now#gid=ci02c08dc2e000262e&pid=10

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2023-qbs-best-worst/yxvqewdhatrxu7qwajhb89vp

https://www.insider.com/nfl-2023-season-starting-quarterbacks-ranked-complete-list-2023-9

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-week-12-qb-power-rankings-ravens-lamar-jackson-rises-to-no-1-broncos-russell-wilson-also-jumps/

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-10-2023-nfl-season

 

They're right to point out the INTs. It's part of who he is. Pretty much all of them also point out his running, which is also part of who he is. It really would be better if he threw less. At least two games and arguably three, Allen was a large part of why we lost, and I'm sure he'd agree 100% with that. He also won us some games, no question. But inconsistency is held against QBs, and for good reason.

 

Of course, there are always going to be a few folks who over-react. This is the internet, after all. It's part of the deal. But most recognize that he's a great QB. Only the wingnuts don't really.

 

He doesn't get a lot of hate, he just doesn't. But yeah, they do throw his weaknesses in with the rest of his traits.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

What's up nerd. 

 

It's weird how sensitive people are about Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton - yet you're the most sensitive when people bring them up in their discussions.  You're no different than the posters you complain about.   There's three things guaranteed in life - Death, Taxes, and @C.Biscuit97 never missing an opportunity to criticize Allen.  It's no secret you're not a fan.  

Death, taxes, and whatever you name is showing up to stalk me when I mention Allen.

 

Not sure how many you are bills fans or Allen groupies. I’ve consistently said he is a top 3 qb (but you didn’t say he was number 1 you jerk!). Sorry, I think Mahomes is better (2 MVPs, 2SBs, crazy I know) is better and the only place on earth this is a discussion is here. I think if their resumes were reversed, we think chiefs fans were idiotic for trying to compare to the 2 st this point.

 

i also believe there are qbs that this board love to criticize, for whatever the reason, like Cam and Lamar. Cam reminded me a lot of Allen. Elite physical skills and could dominate games single handedly.  Cam did that on a pretty garbage Carolina offense. Allen is much more consistent and is making changes to his game to last longer. 
 

and Lamar has similarities to Allen but isn’t on par as a passer (though he has absolute crap to throw to besides Edwards before this season). And it may look funny but dude just wins (during the regular season, needs to prove it in the playoffs still). But any time he messes up, this board loves trashing him.

 

so again, Allen is a top 3 qb; the bills are not as bad around him as others make it out to be and has a worst offense around him than Mahomes this year (that and the 2 SBs is why Mahomes doesn’t get “criticized” as much); and Mahomes is maybe one of the best qbs I have ever seen. My opinion is something 99% of other fans agree with besides the homers here. Josh Allen probably agrees with me and thinks you are weird for getting so emotional. 😭 

13 hours ago, Drew21PA said:

Another note though

 

i think people are going to REALLY be mad when he doesn’t just finish his career in 7-8 years like everyone thinks and he plays longer than expected 

Are we just making up reasons to get mad now? Whoever said that?

6 hours ago, JustAnotherBillsFan said:

I have to admit I was in the camp that thought Lamar could not be successful as a pass first QB but this season he has convinced me otherwise. 

 

Love Josh of course but have nothing but respect for Lamar.

Not sure why that is so hard. And I would rather have Allen as a qb but Lamar wins his way. 
 

bunch of soccer moms here 

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kind of off topic, but can we acknowledge how insane it is that Mahomes spent his first four years with Tyreek Hill AND Travis Kelce in their prime, AND Andy Reid calling plays? I mean that is an all time supporting cast. Arguably the greatest speed WR of all time, arguably the greatest pass catching TE of all time, one of the greatest offensive play callers of all time. Even I didn't fully appreciate how absurdly good that situation was until seeing what Tyreek Hill has done in Miami. And that takes nothing away from Mahomes, his otherworldly talent that defenses simply weren't ready for was the engine of the whole thing.

 

The first year Mahomes had that supporting cast, Allen was throwing the ball to Kelvin Benjamin, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay 🤣 

And he won the SB the same year they traded Hill and had JuJu as his number 1 receiver that insane. 

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Does he really not get the credit? Or is that just the paranoia of Bills fans?

 

Are there a lot of lists out there of the top five QBs that don't have Allen in there?

 

I googled "Top 10 QB list 2023". I later wanted some more recent ones so I re-adjusted for recency. Out of the first ten I opened how many would you guess had Allen outside of the top five?

 

That would be zero.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-qb-power-rankings-lamar-jackson-aaron-rodgers-both-crack-top-10-in-first-rundown-of-all-32-starters/

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/2023-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks-ranking-the-best-qbs-after-patrick-mahomes

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-quarterbacks-entering-the-2023-nfl-season

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/05/30/top-10-quarterbacks-qbs-ranked-right-now#gid=ci02c08dc2e000262e&pid=10

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2023-qbs-best-worst/yxvqewdhatrxu7qwajhb89vp

https://www.insider.com/nfl-2023-season-starting-quarterbacks-ranked-complete-list-2023-9

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-week-12-qb-power-rankings-ravens-lamar-jackson-rises-to-no-1-broncos-russell-wilson-also-jumps/

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-10-2023-nfl-season

 

They're right to point out the INTs. It's part of who he is. Pretty much all of them also point out his running, which is also part of who he is. It really would be better if he threw less. At least two games and arguably three, Allen was a large part of why we lost, and I'm sure he'd agree 100% with that. He also won us some games, no question. But inconsistency is held against QBs, and for good reason.

 

He doesn't get a lot of hate, he just doesn't. But yeah, they do throw his weaknesses in with the rest of his traits.

So what????  No one is going to not have him in their top 7 and that is not the point.

 

It is the criticism that is heaped on him that is often unwarrented.  

[Gregg]

10 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I'm not missing anything. 

 

Mahomes has already cemented his legacy.  There are no question marks left for him except how many more Lombardis or MVPs can he win? 

 

Josh still has some very big boxes to check.  Until then, he's going to be scrutinized more than the guy who's already at the finish line with the flag waving.    

 

You are right about Mahomes, but he has had an advantage over Allen with a few things.

 

1. Better HC and coaching staff in general.

2. Much better OL although the Bills OL has improved this year.

3. The Chiefs defense while not great has shown they can step up in big spots.

 

This has resulted in the Chiefs winning two Super Bowls. Nothing against Mahomes who is a great QB and a future HOF player. If Allen is on the Chiefs and Mahomes is on the Bills, then it would be Allen with the 2 championships with Mahomes having none. IMHO

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

Jim Kelly is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Let me know if Donovan McNabb is ever inducted.

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

So what????  No one is going to not have him in their top 7 and that is not the point.

 

It is the criticism that is heaped on him that is often unwarrented.  

 

 

To repeat, I said top 5, not top 7.

 

And that absolutely is the point. So many on here whine on and on about the criticism and the lack of respect and the hatred and on and on. 

 

Most of that is nonsense. He's ranked top 5 everywhere. He gets a ton of respect. And of course he gets criticism. He's an NFL quarterback. It's part of the deal. Particularly for an NFL QB leading the league in INTs. It's part of the Josh Allen package. Of course it's going to be mentioned. But again, top five status from about everyone.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

There is one big difference, C.Biscuit97 is sensitive about Lamar & Cam ON A BUFFALO BILLS message board.  At least we Allen defenders have the good taste & common sense to defend Allen on a Bills message board and not in a Ravens or Panthers board.

 

 

 

Guy, assuming, this is getting strange. All I have ever said is Cam and Lamar, 2 former MVPs and qbs this board loves to crap on, are good qbs/ top 10 in their prime. It’s weird that even needs to be said.

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

To repeat, I said top 5, not top 7.

 

And that absolutely is the point. So many on here whine on and on about the criticism and the lack of respect and the hatred and on and on. 

 

Most of that is nonsense. He's ranked top 5 everywhere. He gets a ton of respect. And of course he gets criticism. He's an NFL quarterback. It's part of the deal.

I think one had him 7th and almost all behind Burrow, who can too make mistakes and seldom criticized like Allen is.  Heck Mahomes has too thrown some awful ints, but that's okay.

 

The thread was Greenberg showing (fake?) disdain that the question was the O/U on Allen Turnovers, as opposed to maybe O/U Combined TD's or 300 yards passing.

[C.Biscuit97]

13 hours ago, Success said:

 

I think they are - for a LOT of reasons.  Kelly isn't really in the conversation, but I consider him top 10.  Marino has a real argument, for any fan of the game.

 

Clutch play is a big part of ranking - and both Brady and Montana won so much, because they were BOTH so clutch.  They made plays when it counted.

 

That, right now, is not a differentiator between Mahomes & Allen.  If anything, I think Allen was a bit more clutch in the 13 seconds game, though it's close.

 

Winning does matter - but not to the point where Dilfer is better than Marino, or Eli is better than Fouts.

 

We're still in the 1st third or so of both careers.  Mahomes has titles - but he has also had better coaching, more well-constructed teams, and more luck to this point.  Skill-wise, I'd still take Allen over Mahomes. And the time to really judge who is "better" is when they're both done.

 

And that’s fine and that’s your opinion. I think it is kinda crazy and a bills fans being biased towards a situation (again, which I understand). 
 

that’s when I point out that a lot of fans will trash the bills to prop Allen up and I just don’t agree with that. Allen joined a playoff team when he was drafted; he was extremely raw and very up and down; he has consistently had top 5 defenses; they have used a lot of draft picks to put guys around him; his former OC is a coach of the year; etc. it’s not close to as bad as some of you want to make it. It’s not even close to what CJ stroud had to start his career in Houston but some of you act like Allen was Fields on the Bears 

 

top 3 qb, not as good as mahomes. And I’m pretty sure the Bills win in Sunday but I’m a hater!

11 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

The fact that is is clearly disliked for no real reason by, I don't know, 90% of black media members, maybe?

 

Christ, Dominique Foxworth said on an ESPN show that he didn't like Allen because the type of people who do "have American flags and pictures of their dogs in their Facebook profiles."

 

Pull your head out of the sand and read between the lines.

So you are saying the black media members hate Allen? What’s it called when you judge a group of people by their race? 

10 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

There's nothing ridiculous about it. Compare how objectively good QBs with great stats like Allen and Cousins are criticized endlessly while a below-average one like Justin Fields is never held to the fire for poor performances and even gushed over.

 

The bias is real, despite it being a truth you find inconvenient.

You sound crazy 

12 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The horror that Bills fans on TWO BILLS DRIVE might defend Allen from unfair and unhinged attacks by a minority of Bills "fans".  The horror!

 

 

Unhinged!!!! 
 

“Josh is a top 3 qb who has as much upside as any qb in the league. But considering he leads in turnovers since he entered the nfl, I would like to see him take care of the ball better and I think Mahomes is the better qb right now.”

 

unhinged!!! You would be an excellent soccer parent. 

[LeviF]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

 

I've been flamed for a similar take in the past. Should be noted that Marino didn't exactly have the smallest head in the world either though so maybe the XXV outcome ends up being the same lol

[boyst]

29 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Guy, assuming, this is getting strange. All I have ever said is Cam and Lamar, 2 former MVPs and qbs this board loves to crap on, are good qbs/ top 10 in their prime. It’s weird that even needs to be said.

the nuanced difference between cam and lamar is magnificent. especially on a pure passing talent level. newton was able to get away with many things because of olsen and smith being great targets for him while lamar in his prime and at times this year has been finding windows that newton never could.

 

i hate that both of these guys are lumped in the same pot because ...[insert comment here]... because it's not fair. they're quite a bit different.

[The Jokeman]

44 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

I actually agree with you on Kelly. As Kelly couldn't run a traditional offense, see Run and shoot in Houston and the K-Gun here in Buffalo. I often wonder if we ran a more traditional offense that stayed on the field more than 2-3 minutes if our defense would perform better as have more rest time etc. The best thing that ever happened to Kelly is signing with Houston out of school to develop more as a player and let the Bills acquire some of the talent around him before he got here (see Bruce Smith @ #1 overall in 1985 which we'd not get if we drafted Marino in 1983). 

[DrDawkinstein]

8 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Mahomes is a 2x league MVP, 2X Super Bowl champ and 2X Super Bowl MVP.

 

If Patrick retired tomorrow, he'd be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and would widley be considered a top 5 QB all time. 

 

I think he's more than earned the praise.  

 

Never said he shouldnt be praised. Mahomes is absolutely deserving of every worshipping comment.

 

The point is that both QBs are worthy of praise and both are worthy of criticism. But what we get is 90% criticism of Allen, and 99% praise of Mahomes.

 

If winning a Super Bowl makes it so no one ever criticizes your play again, and other QBs will be only criticized until they win a Super Bowl, then the commentary and analysis isnt worth jack squat (not that it means much in the grand scheme of the world anyways).

[boyst]

26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Never said he shouldnt be praised. Mahomes is absolutely deserving of every worshipping comment.

 

The point is that both QBs are worthy of praise and both are worthy of criticism. But what we get is 90% criticism of Allen, and 99% praise of Mahomes.

 

If winning a Super Bowl makes it so no one ever criticizes your play again, and other QBs will be only criticized until they win a Super Bowl, then the commentary and analysis isnt worth jack squat (not that it means much in the grand scheme of the world anyways).

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

 

Where would you put Eli on your lists.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Gregg

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, boyst said:

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

 

I wouldn't consider Brady's "late at tampa" super bowl as a didn't deserve it.  The team was 7-9 the previous year, and 11-5 with him.  10 TDs to 3 INTs in the playoffs of 2020.  108 TDs to 33 INTs over his 3 years in Tampa.  He also probably got screwed over on the 2021 MVP tbh.  

[boyst]

17 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Where would you put Eli on your lists.

Eli was a very good QB. Among the top 5 in his era over shadowed by Brady, Peyton, and others. I think he had more talent then Brees, Ryan, Rodgers, and many others.

 

He and Rivers do not get enough respect for how talented they were because of the bad teams they were on but both elevated their teams. 

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I wouldn't consider Brady's "late at tampa" super bowl as a didn't deserve it.  The team was 7-9 the previous year, and 11-5 with him.  10 TDs to 3 INTs in the playoffs of 2020.  108 TDs to 33 INTs over his 3 years in Tampa.  He also probably got screwed over on the 2021 MVP tbh.  

They went all in to support him. The defense played insanely good. They squeezed out lucky games. They were overrated. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And he won the SB the same year they traded Hill and had JuJu as his number 1 receiver that insane. 

 

Yeah, it's weird you felt the need to say this.

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Does he really not get the credit? Or is that just the paranoia of Bills fans?

 

Are there a lot of lists out there of the top five QBs that don't have Allen in there?

 

I googled "Top 10 QB list 2023". I later wanted some more recent ones so I re-adjusted for recency. Out of the first ten I opened how many would you guess had Allen outside of the top five?

 

That would be zero.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-qb-power-rankings-lamar-jackson-aaron-rodgers-both-crack-top-10-in-first-rundown-of-all-32-starters/

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/2023-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks-ranking-the-best-qbs-after-patrick-mahomes

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-quarterbacks-entering-the-2023-nfl-season

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/05/30/top-10-quarterbacks-qbs-ranked-right-now#gid=ci02c08dc2e000262e&pid=10

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2023-qbs-best-worst/yxvqewdhatrxu7qwajhb89vp

https://www.insider.com/nfl-2023-season-starting-quarterbacks-ranked-complete-list-2023-9

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-week-12-qb-power-rankings-ravens-lamar-jackson-rises-to-no-1-broncos-russell-wilson-also-jumps/

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-10-2023-nfl-season

 

They're right to point out the INTs. It's part of who he is. Pretty much all of them also point out his running, which is also part of who he is. It really would be better if he threw less. At least two games and arguably three, Allen was a large part of why we lost, and I'm sure he'd agree 100% with that. He also won us some games, no question. But inconsistency is held against QBs, and for good reason.

 

Of course, there are always going to be a few folks who over-react. This is the internet, after all. It's part of the deal. But most recognize that he's a great QB. Only the wingnuts don't really.

 

He doesn't get a lot of hate, he just doesn't. But yeah, they do throw his weaknesses in with the rest of his traits.

No offense, this is a terrible counter.  Of course no one in their right mind would leave Allen off a top 10 list.  
 

Im talking about the narrative, the constant pursuit to diminish him as an elite QB.  Top 10 is not Elite.  The constant need to focus on the negative with Allen, the narrative trying to paint Allen as the problem in Buffalo, the narrative he is overrated, the narrative he didn’t deserve to be on the Madden cover…I mean I can go on and on about what is discussed about Allen on a regular basis.  

 

Yet even his biggest critics would never leave him off a top 10 list.   
 

I mean even just watch this video in this very thread where a professional sports journalist had to burst out in the show he is on in defense of Allen because the story was not his statistical DOMINANCE at Arrowhead where his career stats are insane there, espeically his last 3, but instead about will Josh have more or less than 1.5 turnovers.  

So sorry, this reply with googled lists of him being top 10 is not relevant to what is being discussed.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[TheBrownBear]

Watched two shows this morning each with a segment piling on Josh.  Orlovsky must feel like he's taking crazy pills sometimes having to continually point out objective truths to his co-hosts.  I'm not sure why some of these dudes have such a hard-on for hating Allen?  Yeah, he's not perfect, but no QB is.  Do they literally only watch reels of his turnovers or something?  

[cisco2403]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Death, taxes, and whatever you name is showing up to stalk me when I mention Allen.

 

Not sure how many you are bills fans or Allen groupies. I’ve consistently said he is a top 3 qb (but you didn’t say he was number 1 you jerk!). Sorry, I think Mahomes is better (2 MVPs, 2SBs, crazy I know) is better and the only place on earth this is a discussion is here. I think if their resumes were reversed, we think chiefs fans were idiotic for trying to compare to the 2 st this point.

 

i also believe there are qbs that this board love to criticize, for whatever the reason, like Cam and Lamar. Cam reminded me a lot of Allen. Elite physical skills and could dominate games single handedly.  Cam did that on a pretty garbage Carolina offense. Allen is much more consistent and is making changes to his game to last longer. 
 

and Lamar has similarities to Allen but isn’t on par as a passer (though he has absolute crap to throw to besides Edwards before this season). And it may look funny but dude just wins (during the regular season, needs to prove it in the playoffs still). But any time he messes up, this board loves trashing him.

 

so again, Allen is a top 3 qb; the bills are not as bad around him as others make it out to be and has a worst offense around him than Mahomes this year (that and the 2 SBs is why Mahomes doesn’t get “criticized” as much); and Mahomes is maybe one of the best qbs I have ever seen. My opinion is something 99% of other fans agree with besides the homers here. Josh Allen probably agrees with me and thinks you are weird for getting so emotional. 😭 

Are we just making up reasons to get mad now? Whoever said that?

Not sure why that is so hard. And I would rather have Allen as a qb but Lamar wins his way. 
 

bunch of soccer moms here 

And he won the SB the same year they traded Hill and had JuJu as his number 1 receiver that insane. 

The very video that is in the first post kind of refutes what you are saying that there is no debate outside of here on who is better. When Greenberg says, if Allen were to land with the Chiefs and Andy Reid, the roles would be reversed. 

[Mango]

I think Greeny is right. Allen played great vs Philly. A lot of things are true at the same time. Allen is really really really good, he gets held to a wild standard, and sometimes he needs to be better. Some games have too many turnovers and poor decisions. 

 

I think part of the problem is that this team lives and dies by Allen's game. Some of that is on the FO and staff. But Allen also brings some of that on himself with his style of play. 

 

I don't mind the reactive stuff like "You can't throw the ball there at that point in the game". I don't like the proactive stuff like "how many turnovers is this jabroni going to have this week". 

Short story long. I am critical of Allen at times and he has played phenomenal at times. Anybody piling on the Philly game is out of their gourd. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Watched two shows this morning each with a segment piling on Josh.  Orlovsky must feel like he's taking crazy pills sometimes having to continually point out objective truths to his co-hosts.  I'm not sure why some of these dudes have such a hard-on for hating Allen?  Yeah, he's not perfect, but no QB is.  Do they literally only watch reels of his turnovers or something?  

 

Exactly, and this is the point I was trying to convey to @Thurman#1 

[TheBrownBear]

34 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think Greeny is right. Allen played great vs Philly. A lot of things are true at the same time. Allen is really really really good, he gets held to a wild standard, and sometimes he needs to be better. Some games have too many turnovers and poor decisions. 

Short story long. I am critical of Allen at times and he has played phenomenal at times. Anybody piling on the Philly game is out of their gourd. 

They are taking the opportunity to really pile on at this time because of 6-6, which is as much McDermott's D's (and injuries) fault as Allen's.  The last two games against NYJ and Philly were probably the two finest games Josh has played in the last calendar year.