I hope that Beane stops listening to McDermott when drafting

[DCofNC]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Take a deep breath and think.  Milano has been in the league how long?  Now how long has Williams been in the league?  Thay's right, Williams is a rookie and he's learning.  I'll bet you were among those saying we had no replacement for Edmunds and that Bernard stunk based on his rookie year as well.  Am I right?

I’m not the person claiming Williams is Milano’s replacement.  That’s a HUGE stretch. He’s shown little to nothing and Milano is great.   I like Williams and would love for him to develop into Milano, but at this point he’s just as likely to be pre-season cut next season as he is a all pro.

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

 

I think you skipped a step.

[Matt_In_NH]

7 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I love how because McDermott is an unpopular figure around here, everything that’s gone wrong is his fault 🤣🤣😂

 

How do you know that it was McDermott who insisted on making these picks?  How do you know it wasn’t Beane who insisted on defense?

 

 

Well said.   Fanatics will fanatic…..

[Not at the table Karlos]

6 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

ATM??   I’m not sure this means what you think it means….

At the moment. 

[WotAGuy]

2 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

At the moment. 

Nice save. Uh huh. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

7 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I love how because McDermott is an unpopular figure around here, everything that’s gone wrong is his fault 🤣🤣😂

 

How do you know that it was McDermott who insisted on making these picks?  How do you know it wasn’t Beane who insisted on defense?

 

 

We all seen the videos of the 21 draft when McD couldn’t contain himself with how happy he was when we took Boogie Basham . McD definitely has his hands all over the drafts but I’m not gonna just blame him.Beane needs to go as well In 6yrs of drafting from 2018 to 2023 the only true difference maker this regime drafted was Josh Allen. It’s obvious this front office and scouting staff are average at best and they all need to get fired. 

[Since1981]

I hate McD pushing D but it would be dereliction of duty for a GM not to get HC input. Beane has provided a solid 53. 
 

—A GM 53 that win >70% games is solid.  
—A HC that loses nearly all one score margin (and loses all OT) is flawed 

[JohnNord]

6 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

We all seen the videos of the 21 draft when McD couldn’t contain himself with how happy he was when we took Boogie Basham . McD definitely has his hands all over the drafts but I’m not gonna just blame him.Beane needs to go as well In 6yrs of drafting from 2018 to 2023 the only true difference maker this regime drafted was Josh Allen. It’s obvious this front office and scouting staff are average at best and they all need to get fired. 

Again, if this is the only evidence I think it’s a bit of stretch.  We have no clue whether McDermott was higher on Boogie than the rest of scouting.  

 

We have no idea who influenced the selection of which picks.  
 

I’ll agree with you, that overall the draft has missed out on drafting those very high-end prospects.   The guy who said he hit singles and not home runs is correct. 
 

Just now, Since1981 said:

I hate McD pushing D but it would be dereliction of duty for a GM not to get HC input. Beane has provided a solid 53. 
 

—A GM 53 that win >70% games is solid.  
—A HC that loses nearly all one score margin (and loses all OT) is flawed 

This is fake news… McDermott was 6-1 in one score games last season.

 

He was also good in 2019.

[JohnNord]

39 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think you skipped a step.

What did he skip?

[billsfan89]

The Bills past two drafts have been very good reminiscent of the 2017-2018 drafts. Even the drafts from 2019-2021 while not great were still solid drafts that all produced multiple starters. The Bills even adjusted to draft heavier on offense spending their first two picks on offense in 2023 finding two plug and play starters.

 

So whatever you want to say about the Bills they shouldn’t change their draft process.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

8 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Do you think it's a coincidence that 2017's first priority was overhauling their secondary?  And yeah I know, Beane wasn't "officially" here yet.  

 

Or that they prioritized signing Star to a 5 year 50M deal in 2018?  You know, during the time they were getting out of the previous regime's cap issues? 

 

Or, used 5 of 7 1st round picks on defense from 2017-2022?

 

Or, have targeted defensive players first in each UFA period save for perhaps 1 maybe 2 since McD took over?  

 

Nah, McD isn't the prime voice at OBD.  Not enough evidence. 👌

You sure did skip over plenty of other drafting/signings from the last 5 years that don’t fit your narrative 👌🏻👌🏻

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, coloradobillsfan said:

Every time I hear Creed Humphrey's name I get another grey hair

 

It really is annoying. There are so many bad personnel decisions that you could point to, many of which combine to become a bad trend. But a lot of fans choose to focus on a single bad pick where the lost opportunity cost was just a center? The Chiefs themselves had an unquestionably worse and less forgivable pick taking CEH in the 1st round over Tee Higgins. One awful pick didn't stop them from winning a Super Bowl.

 

Overall I don't have a lot of complaints about Beane's drafting. He has found as many starting caliber players in the draft as any other GM in the league. My issue with him is he has consistently failed to even try and surround his franchise QB with an above average supporting cast. That speaks more to his poor work in free agency than in the draft IMO.

[GoBills808]

18 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It really is annoying. There are so many bad personnel decisions that you could point to, many of which combine to become a bad trend. But a lot of fans choose to focus on a single bad pick where the lost opportunity cost was just a center? The Chiefs themselves had an unquestionably worse and less forgivable pick taking CEH in the 1st round over Tee Higgins. One awful pick didn't stop them from winning a Super Bowl.

 

Overall I don't have a lot of complaints about Beane's drafting. He has found as many starting caliber players in the draft as any other GM in the league. My issue with him is he has consistently failed to even try and surround his franchise QB with an above average supporting cast. That speaks more to his poor work in free agency than in the draft IMO.

Hopkins has 775 yards and 5 TDs catching balls from Will Levis

[Governor]

What’s wrong with Murray? He’s done his job. 

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Hopkins has 775 yards and 5 TDs catching balls from Will Levis

 

Yeah that is the obvious "should have" move that may have sunk our season. The more you think about it the more frustrating it is. His contract was not so restrictive that we couldn't have pried him away from the Titans. Let go of Hines, Poyer, Harty, Settle, and be willing to kick the can down the road a bit further. That's all it would have taken. And his skill set is so perfect for Allen's play style and as a complement to Diggs. Just a no brainer signing that Beane inexplicably didn't make... I like Beane overall but coming into the season with Davis still as the #2, when an immediate substantial improvement was available and willing to come here, is probably a fireable offense.

[HappyDays]

9 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

2022 - Elam. Reminiscent of 2021, Tyler Linderbaum was there, I was hoping for him, but alas... However, it's not like Linderbaum has been amazing, and I dont think he's much of a weapon. I do think with either him or Humphrey we win the Vikings game. And they would have helped us get out of Morse's contract earlier. But I dont think we missed anything to weaponize the offense. Breece Hall I guess. But a 1st round RB? Sure, anything is better than what Elam has been so far. But I still would have gone Defense here and picked Dax Hill instead.

 

Christian Watson is the answer here IMO. That isn't hindsight either, he had plenty of fans on here that wanted him in the 1st round. It remains to be seen if he can consistently stay healthy but the talent pops off the screen.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah that is the obvious "should have" move that may have sunk our season. The more you think about it the more frustrating it is. His contract was not so restrictive that we couldn't have pried him away from the Titans. Let go of Hines, Poyer, Harty, Settle, and be willing to kick the can down the road a bit further. That's all it would have taken. And his skill set is so perfect for Allen's play style and as a complement to Diggs. Just a no brainer signing that Beane inexplicably didn't make... I like Beane overall but coming into the season with Davis still as the #2, when an immediate substantial improvement was available and willing to come here, is probably a fireable offense.

I still don't understand why Hopkins isn't a Bill right now

 

It was such an obvious move I thought

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

They have a GM that has control of personnel no matter what fans think and has struggled to draft true difference makers.

 

I 100% believe that Beane and his staff control the draft process. But free agency? I can't buy that if Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan were our coach, we would have spent tens of millions of dollars on the likes of Star Lotulelei and Vernon Butler and Jordan Phillips, while punting on a talent like DeAndre Hopkins. I'm sure Beane creates the contracts and manages the cap space, but I'm equally sure McDermott has a big say in the players that we sign. He would have to, right? His philosophy overrules anyone else in the building. He tells Beane what kinds of players he needs to build a successful team and I'm sure his defensive background influences those decisions.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by HappyDays

[gobills1212]

12 hours ago, margolbe said:

The greatest strength of this team is offense, so we don't need to keep drafting undersized linebackers and corners who can't cover.

 

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

 

I also think it would worth drafting a developmental quarterback so we don't all have to sweat when Josh takes a hard hit.

 

I hope that we also hire a defensive coordinator.  Although McDermott is a genius in his own mind, we need a fresh voice on defense.  We also need to fire the ST coach and get some one good in here.

We dont know the name of the ST coach... but we want him fired? I feel like as a fan, if you are going to publicly admonish someone, you should at least know the guys name if you want your thoughts to be taken seriously. Its like when someone calls 550 to complain and then calls the player by the wrong name. Just an odd look

[pennstate10]

11 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I agree with the spirit of this take. 

 

There hasn't been nearly enough investment into the offense in the Josh Allen era. 

 

Gabe Davis at 128th overall is the highest WR the Bills have selected, and the FA WRs here have been middle to low end free agents. Beasley was 30 when he got here and so was Brown. 

 

Offensive Line has mostly been a patch job with middle round picks and low-tier FAs. 

 

The most investment has been at RB and TE. 

 

Problem is with Floyd, Epenesa, Ford, Phillips, DaQuan, Settle, Lawson all headed towards UFA, there will have to be investment there. Now, I hope that Gabe Davis' impending FA forces the Bills hand at WR and they realize they should take one in the top half of Round 1. 

Just my opinion, but I don’t like the idea of a WR in the top half of round 1. 
It will take a lot of draft capital to move from 32 up to 15.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I 100% believe that Beane and his staff control the draft process. But free agency? I can't buy that if Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan were our coach, we would have spent tens of millions of dollars on the likes of Star Lotulelei and Vernon Butler and Jordan Phillips, while punting on a talent like DeAndre Hopkins. I'm sure Beane creates the contracts and manages the cap space, but I'm equally sure McDermott has a big say in the players that we sign. He would have to, right? His philosophy overrules anyone else in the building. He tells Beane what kinds of players he needs to build a successful team and I'm sure his defensive background influences those decisions.

 

 

Beane doesn't do contracts and he isn't the capologist (though clearly he has to sign off on all moves). Kevin Meganck does both of those roles. Beane identifies targets and evaluates the market then ultimately managers to overall roster build. It is fair that Head Coaches tend to have more input into free agency. That is consistent across the league and I am certain McDermott played a significant part in some of the ex Panthers on defense. That said Jordan Phillips is 100% on Beane that is Brandon's guy. Phillips has said so himself.

[Not at the table Karlos]

11 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Nice save. Uh huh. 

What? 
 

Am I missing something? I googled it and the only two things that came up were automated teller machine and at the moment. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Not at the table Karlos

[Teddy KGB]

19 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I love how because McDermott is an unpopular figure around here, everything that’s gone wrong is his fault 🤣🤣😂

 

How do you know that it was McDermott who insisted on making these picks?  How do you know it wasn’t Beane who insisted on defense?

 

 

Mcclappy needs 10 DL to rotate 

[John from Riverside]

Offense early should be the way to go from here on out

[BillsVet]

10 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

You sure did skip over plenty of other drafting/signings from the last 5 years that don’t fit your narrative 👌🏻👌🏻

 

Name them.  And then compare those to moderate to major (EDIT: defensive) signings and give me the delta. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by BillsVet

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

 

Name them.  And then compare those to moderate to major offensive signings and give me the delta. 

I've heard of day drinking, but replacing coffee with Vodka?  That's a bit extreme, even for me. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

59 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Name them.  And then compare those to moderate to major (EDIT: defensive) signings and give me the delta. 

I’ll name some highlights: 2017 and 2018 was light, but any success we were going to have with washed up Tyrod and rookie Josh was through the defense and run game, I assume we can both agree on that. 
 

2019: Signed John Brown and Cole Beasley. Took a gamble with Ty Nseke who wound up being the swing tackle. Signed Frank Gore to be the #2. Tyler Kroft to be the 1a TE. Signed Mitch Morse. Only defensive FA addition was Kevin Johnson, depth guy. After going Ed Oliver in round one, they went OT (Cody ford), RB (Devin Singletary), and TE (Dawson Knox) in the second and third rounds. 2019 was an offense heavy offseason. 
 

2020: Far more balanced after a very offensive heavy 2019. Team signed 6 defensive players (Mario Addison and AJ Klein only starters), but still added starting OG Quinton Spain, starting RT Daryl Williams, RB Twain Jones for depth. OH and they traded for that Stephon Diggs dude. 2 starting OL and a superstar WR. Went DE in the draft in round 2, then RB (Zach Moss), WR (Gabe Davis, and QB (Jake Fromm). Then Kicker. 
 

2021: Added a high profile backup QB in Mitch Turbiski, #2 WR in Emmanuel Sanders, Matt Brida for RB depth, and Pro-Bowl Bobby Hart. They had a bunch of depth re-signings for both sides of the ball, but did ink Matt Milano. In the draft they went DE in both rounds, but added the starting RT in the third. 
 

2022: Added high profile OG Roger Staffold who was TKO’d by Father Time by week 4, but it was viewed as a great pickup at the time. Added Jameson Crowder who was also viewed as a great signing. They added Tim Settle (wooo), Daquan Jones, and Von Miller to the defense. 

As you can see, the Bills have spent major money and made some major investment in the offense around Allen. This “Defense Dominated” narrative is false when you break things down. Most FA periods the offense, in terms of starters, has dominated. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

21 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Correction: McD has FAR LESS say in the draft than Beane does. Beane is the guy making the picks and ultimately responsible for them.

I think what I meant was if McD wants player A and Beane wants player B, the whole scouting team will discuss it and break it down, rather than Beane just overruling them all. He has the power to dictate it, but I don’t think he does. 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I’ll name some highlights: 2017 and 2018 was light, but any success we were going to have with washed up Tyrod and rookie Josh was through the defense and run game, I assume we can both agree on that. 
 

2019: Signed John Brown and Cole Beasley. Took a gamble with Ty Nseke who wound up being the swing tackle. Signed Frank Gore to be the #2. Tyler Kroft to be the 1a TE. Signed Mitch Morse. Only defensive FA addition was Kevin Johnson, depth guy. After going Ed Oliver in round one, they went OT (Cody ford), RB (Devin Singletary), and TE (Dawson Knox) in the second and third rounds. 2019 was an offense heavy offseason. 
 

2020: Far more balanced after a very offensive heavy 2019. Team signed 6 defensive players (Mario Addison and AJ Klein only starters), but still added starting OG Quinton Spain, starting RT Daryl Williams, RB Twain Jones for depth. OH and they traded for that Stephon Diggs dude. 2 starting OL and a superstar WR. Went DE in the draft in round 2, then RB (Zach Moss), WR (Gabe Davis, and QB (Jake Fromm). Then Kicker. 
 

2021: Added a high profile backup QB in Mitch Turbiski, #2 WR in Emmanuel Sanders, Matt Brida for RB depth, and Pro-Bowl Bobby Hart. They had a bunch of depth re-signings for both sides of the ball, but did ink Matt Milano. In the draft they went DE in both rounds, but added the starting RT in the third. 
 

2022: Added high profile OG Roger Staffold who was TKO’d by Father Time by week 4, but it was viewed as a great pickup at the time. Added Jameson Crowder who was also viewed as a great signing. They added Tim Settle (wooo), Daquan Jones, and Von Miller to the defense. 

As you can see, the Bills have spent major money and made some major investment in the offense around Allen. This “Defense Dominated” narrative is false when you break things down. Most FA periods the offense, in terms of starters, has dominated. 

 

In other words, 2017, 2018, 2021, and 2022 were defense heavy.  2019 and 2020 were not. 

 

Thanks much for making the case that the organization builds its roster in the way I've described: defense first.  A defense that breaks down in big moments as we've seen at crucial times going back a few seasons.   

[TheyCallMeAndy]

11 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

In other words, 2017, 2018, 2021, and 2022 were defense heavy.  2019 and 2020 were not. 

 

Thanks much for making the case that the organization builds its roster in the way I've described: defense first.  A defense that breaks down in big moments as we've seen at crucial times going back a few seasons.   

I didn’t look at 17 and 18, but those years HAD to be defensive heavy.
 

2021 was definitely very balanced and 2022 would have been had it not been the Von contract. You can count 2023 to a “Offense Heavy” offseason as well. I expect 2024 will be defense tilted, but the O will get some gains too. 
 

Josh Allen and Steph Diggs also got big extensions the last few “defensive heavy” years also. 
 

If you view it as “defensive favored” that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don’t think the investments are exactly 50-50 but it’s close enough to where, in my opinion, it’s been pretty balanced. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I’ll name some highlights: 2017 and 2018 was light, but any success we were going to have with washed up Tyrod and rookie Josh was through the defense and run game, I assume we can both agree on that. 
 

2019: Signed John Brown and Cole Beasley. Took a gamble with Ty Nseke who wound up being the swing tackle. Signed Frank Gore to be the #2. Tyler Kroft to be the 1a TE. Signed Mitch Morse. Only defensive FA addition was Kevin Johnson, depth guy. After going Ed Oliver in round one, they went OT (Cody ford), RB (Devin Singletary), and TE (Dawson Knox) in the second and third rounds. 2019 was an offense heavy offseason. 
 

2020: Far more balanced after a very offensive heavy 2019. Team signed 6 defensive players (Mario Addison and AJ Klein only starters), but still added starting OG Quinton Spain, starting RT Daryl Williams, RB Twain Jones for depth. OH and they traded for that Stephon Diggs dude. 2 starting OL and a superstar WR. Went DE in the draft in round 2, then RB (Zach Moss), WR (Gabe Davis, and QB (Jake Fromm). Then Kicker. 
 

2021: Added a high profile backup QB in Mitch Turbiski, #2 WR in Emmanuel Sanders, Matt Brida for RB depth, and Pro-Bowl Bobby Hart. They had a bunch of depth re-signings for both sides of the ball, but did ink Matt Milano. In the draft they went DE in both rounds, but added the starting RT in the third. 
 

2022: Added high profile OG Roger Staffold who was TKO’d by Father Time by week 4, but it was viewed as a great pickup at the time. Added Jameson Crowder who was also viewed as a great signing. They added Tim Settle (wooo), Daquan Jones, and Von Miller to the defense. 

As you can see, the Bills have spent major money and made some major investment in the offense around Allen. This “Defense Dominated” narrative is false when you break things down. Most FA periods the offense, in terms of starters, has dominated. 

You took all the time to type this up and it still reads defensive heavy lol

[TheyCallMeAndy]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You took all the time to type this up and it still reads defensive heavy lol

 

Boils down to how you view 2022. Added Roger Staffold and Jameson Crowder as well as Daquan Jones and Von Miller. Miller got an inflated contract. Impact draft picks were also 50/50 that year. 

[machine gun kelly]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:10 PM, margolbe said:

A good pick.  Why not another wide receiver and a backup quarterback?

A backup QB?  Go back to your Jets, Dolphins, Patriots board.  Im

not happy with McD right now either, but your opinion is silly.  
 

I’ll agree we need a WR, but you’re trying to inspire fear and a lack of faith.  It’s easy to tell who is a real Bills fan.  They I can accept criticism as they care about this team.  Not so much you.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

 

Boils down to how you view 2022. Added Roger Staffold and Jameson Crowder as well as Daquan Jones and Von Miller. Miller got an inflated contract. Impact draft picks were also 50/50 that year. 

Jones, Settle, Miller ...and Phillips...and Lawson...and another first rounder on defense...

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 12/5/2023 at 11:00 AM, JohnNord said:

I love how because McDermott is an unpopular figure around here, everything that’s gone wrong is his fault 🤣🤣😂

 

How do you know that it was McDermott who insisted on making these picks?  How do you know it wasn’t Beane who insisted on defense?

 

 

Now that Leslie Frazier, Ken Dorsey are gone, it is now McDermott's turn.

 

As to the GM not listening to the HC during the draft, that entire premise is toxic.  It would be like going back to the Doug Whaley days.

Edited December 6, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[TheyCallMeAndy]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Jones, Settle, Miller ...and Phillips...and Lawson...and another first rounder on defense...

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/37068/buffalo-bills-nfl-free-agent-signings-2022-isaiah-mckenzie-gives-josh-allen-another-weapon
 

9 offense, 5 defense 

 

We are splitting hairs here man!!

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/37068/buffalo-bills-nfl-free-agent-signings-2022-isaiah-mckenzie-gives-josh-allen-another-weapon
 

9 offense, 5 defense 

 

We are splitting hairs here man!!

Come on even you don't believe that

 

Do you want me to break it down by cap%

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Come on even you don't believe that

 

Do you want me to break it down by cap%

 

Whichever stat you want to dig out to fit your narrative!

 

I replied earlier showing that the drafting has not been out of balance. @TheyCallMeAndy just provided a link showing that Free Agency has been balanced.

 

So let's move those goal posts to cap %! Something will prove this right eventually!

 

(spoiler alert: with Josh and Stef alone accounting for 30% of the cap, not sure that's going to work out either)

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Come on even you don't believe that

 

Do you want me to break it down by cap%

Yes I do 😉

 

Basically Von’s contract tilted things in favor of the defense, but it’s not like we have neglected the offense. We’ve still made some serious investments on that side dating back to 2019. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Whichever stat you want to dig out to fit your narrative!

 

I replied earlier showing that the drafting has not been out of balance. @TheyCallMeAndy just provided a link showing that Free Agency has been balanced.

 

So let's move those goal posts to cap %! Something will prove this right eventually!

 

(spoiler alert: with Josh and Stef alone accounting for 30% of the cap, not sure that's going to work out either)

 

 

for 2023 we spend the second most in the NFL on defense

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

offense spending 13th

 

In 2022 we spent 6th most in the league on defense and 24th most on offense

 

I imagine if we break down draft picks by point value it would show a similar story but if someone wants to do that work I'd be happy to be proven wrong