Sherfield and Harty

[Dubie54]

I really thought these two guys would help strengthen our receiving corps talent, based on what they had done recently in NO and MIA. They both played meaningful roles in those offenses and served as as strong contributors.

 

Harty had his breakout year in 2021 (he was hurt last year and saw limited action in 4 games), and no doubt we signed him based on his solid production in 2021. Besides being a solid return guy, in 2021 his receiving stats were:

                            36 rec        570 yds        YPC -  15.8         longest - 72 yds

 

The guy is quick and shifty and the Saints under Payton obviously found ways to utilize his speed and elusiveness. He was 2nd on the team in receiving yards.

 

Sherfield had his breakout year in 2022. Behind Hill and Waddle, he was 3rd on the team in receiving yards:

                           30 rec         417 yds         YPC - 13.9       longest - 75 yds

 

 

So far in 2023, here's they stand:

 

Harty:                13 rec       113 yds      YPC -  8.7     longest - 43 yds

Sherfield:           7  rec         53 yds      YPC - 7.6      longest -  9 yds

 

 

I know there are those who will say why do you want to throw more to these guys when you have Diggs/Davis/Kincaid. Well Miami last year, found a way to use Sherfield even though Hill had 119 rec. and Waddle had 75 rec., and Sherfield was gaining 14 YPC. Harty played on a team in 2021 that had a very mediocre receiving corps (no Michael Thomas that year) so he was asked to play a larger. What really stands out to me is the YPC under the current Bills offense. That may be based on the fact that they have been targeted on check downs more this year than in years past, but I also think it's a clear reflection of the short pass Dorsey scheme. 

 

I think under a more dynamic offense, both of these guys could contribute more. Why sign guys like these if you don't plan to work them into the offense - just to use them as decoys?    

   

 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

When you don't convert third downs and stay on the field, it limits these types of players. They just don't get many opportunities. The 2 TE sets don't help either. 

[boyst]

sherfield never had a breakout year.

mckenzie did more on the football field than both combined.

harty is a 5th wr/gadget dude at most.

 

all three are JAGs

 

**i say it is not a breakout year because anyone could have put those numbers up.

Edited November 7, 2023 by boyst

[Your Brown Eye]

I had pretty elevated hopes for Sherfield, thought he could be a jack of trades in the pass and run game

[Straight Hucklebuck]

You look at Harty's two most memorable plays this year:

 

The 10 yard First Down against Miami where he slides to catch a low ball, gets up and beats two guys to the sticks. 

 

The 10 yard First Down against New England where he makes 4 guys miss in a phone booth and picks up a first down. 

 

Both of those routes were simple routes to the sideline-flat. Nothing complicated, no motion, to jet sweep action, no trips action - those two plays just don't add up to me as to why he can't catch 2-3 of those kind of passes a game. 

 

But he's not on the field enough to even assess his routes so I can't tell you. 

 

There is nothing in the 15-20 yard area for this team outside of Diggs. You never see Harty over the middle, on a drag, on a slant or curl.

 

They threw a bomb to him in Cincy and he never saw the field again. 

 

 

 

[SCBills]

Under McDermott, we will likely never be on the cutting edge of offense. 

 

The way Allen plays, along with his tendencies.. we should probably stop playing games at WR and just get him legitimate WR2 that can run a full route tree.

 

He clearly throws to who he trusts.  Right now, it's Diggs and Kincaid.. which makes sense, because they are top tier talents.  

 

After that, it may be Shakir.. which, again, makes some sense because Shakir is in his true spot as WR3/Slot.

 

Gabe is up and down because he's not a WR2 and is completely miscast in this Offense as we keep trying to tell Josh to trust someone in a role they are not built to occupy.  

 

He'll never be a consistent spread it around guy.  He has his guys.. he trusts his guys..  Get him a legitimate WR2 that can run a full route tree and watch things pick up.    Harty & Sherfield are just WR4/WR5 misfits here.

 

I guess, for this year, we'll have to hope Gabe Davis magically becomes it.. or we can build an Offense around consistent production from Diggs, Kincaid and perhaps Shakir or a healthy Knox. 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by SCBills

[Rubes]

Harty was on the field for 3 plays in the Bengals game. 3 snaps.

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

I had pretty elevated hopes for Sherfield, thought he could be a jack of trades in the pass and run game

 

He's solid depth and special teams.  He can play inside and outside, has hands, and is fast.  Basically a kumerow replacement.  They were subbing out diggs and putting him in on run plays early in the year because he's a solid blocker too.  Obviously that tips your hand a bit though.  

 

Harty was a mckenzie replacement.  He's a better punt returner than mckenzie, but he isn't really a slot WR.  I do think he's a tad more elusive than mckenzie, has better hands, and is actually a solid ball tracker on deep balls.  Not sure why he isn't in the red zone package more - he's probably one of 2 players on the team that you can throw short of the end zone and have a reasonable expectation that they break the tackle and score.  

 

Because they're using kincaid as a WR at times, and shakir is finally getting some run in the slot - neither is seeing snaps at the moment.  You can easily take some snaps from gabe and give them to either for something different.  You can also move diggs into the slot and take a few shakir snaps and do something.  

 

I mean... what we're doing isn't working.  Why aren't we trying to find other avenunes to get players involved?  If you are going to throw short constantly you need YAC players - harty has wiggle, sherfield has speed.. isn't that what you want?  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

17 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

I had pretty elevated hopes for Sherfield, thought he could be a jack of trades in the pass and run game

He looked good when given chances last year in Miami. He looks pretty good too for us when he is targeted. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

11 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Harty was on the field for 3 plays in the Bengals game. 3 snaps.

 

 

Bengals sit in cover 2 all game... Occaisionally rushing 3... And we have good YAC guys giving up snaps to davis so that davis can run clear outs for diggs/kincaid.  Our tight end runs nothing but out routes.  It works until it doesn't.  We always look for hole shots in cover 2 - despite having a TE who can stretch those linebackers up the seam and ya know... create space for YAC underneath.  

[The Frankish Reich]

34 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Harty had his breakout year in 2021 (he was hurt last year and saw limited action in 4 games), and no doubt we signed him based on his solid production in 2021. Besides being a solid return guy, in 2021 his receiving stats were:

                            36 rec        570 yds        YPC -  15.8         longest - 72 yds

 

The guy is quick and shifty and the Saints under Payton obviously found ways to utilize his speed and elusiveness

That says it all - "the Saints under Payton."

The Broncos under Payton have another undrafted/tiny free agent they're getting a lot of value out of, Jaleel McLaughlin. We'll see him next week. He's good.

You really shouldn't spend big for these guys. You find them in late rounds or as undrafted free agents. And then you have to have an idea of how to integrate them into your offense. The Bills kind of did with McKenzie under Daboll, and had no clue with Hines or Harty under Dorsey.

[Dubie54]

30 minutes ago, boyst said:

sherfield never had a breakout year.

mckenzie did more on the football field than both combined.

harty is a 5th wr/gadget dude at most.

 

all three are JAGs

 

**i say it is not a breakout year because anyone could have put those numbers up.

I called it a breakout year based on his previous career stats up to that point. I disagree with your point about mckenzie. Sherfield had identical rec yds as mck in 2022, but he avg. much better YPC.  

[Straight Hucklebuck]

34 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Under McDermott, we will likely never be on the cutting edge of offense. 

 

The way Allen plays, along with his tendencies.. we should probably stop playing games at WR and just get him legitimate WR2 that can run a full route tree.

 

He clearly throws to who he trusts.  Right now, it's Diggs and Kincaid.. which makes sense, because they are top tier talents.  

 

After that, it may be Shakir.. which, again, makes some sense because Shakir is in his true spot as WR3/Slot.

 

Gabe is up and down because he's not a WR2 and is completely miscast in this Offense as we keep trying to tell Josh to trust someone in a role they are not built to occupy.  

 

He'll never be a consistent spread it around guy.  He has his guys.. he trusts his guys..  Get him a legitimate WR2 that can run a full route tree and watch things pick up.    Harty & Sherfield are just WR4/WR5 misfits here.

 

I guess, for this year, we'll have to hope Gabe Davis magically becomes it.. or we can build an Offense around consistent production from Diggs, Kincaid and perhaps Shakir or a healthy Knox. 

 

This is what I said after Week 1. 

 

You have a rocket armed QB that you drafted chained to a bunch underneath guys, with only Diggs having enough skill balance to reliably separate, catch the ball, and run deep/after the catch. 

 

It started in 2021 when the answer was sign Emmanuel Sanders. That was the mental flaw that capped this offense. 

[LabattBlue]

I will be interested to see what the WR depth chart looks like next season.  Davis is as good as gone. Some team will pay him north of 10 mil per.  

[streetkings01]

We have an OC not creative enough to get guys involved. 

[TheBrownBear]

At this point, I no longer believe it's the players.  I think most of these guys are fine (though, I have admittedly soured on Gabe Davis). Dorsey and/or Josh just don't know what to do with them or how to get them involved. 

[Bangarang]

Harty played 3 snaps on offense on Sunday. Beane deserves criticism for that contract. 

[Success]

Both had enough of a body of work to determine that they SHOULD be a bigger part of this offense.

 

I don't think Dorsey knows how to use them, or how to be creative enough on offense to work them in more.  If Daboll was still here, they would have triple the usage & stats (imo).

 

[SoMAn]

I  recently stumbled upon some comments from Bills fans dating back to 2017. I forget what site it was (a Facebook fan page?) I don't know how I got there, but it was amusing to read the comments. The comments were posted immediately after acquiring Kelvin Benjamin. There was great excitement and anticipation, believing he would bolster the receiving corps and the Bills would have one of the best group of receivers with him and Charles Clay on the field together.

 

In hindsight, it pretty laughable. But, it's typical of the fan reaction when we pick up some 'has-been' who another team has determined won't contribute much.

 

Sherfield and Harty are not 'has-beens', more like 'never-weres'. They're typical JAGs. Not bad, not great. Just guys who'll never hear the words pro bowl or hall of fame mentioned in the same sentence as their names.

 

I can't honestly say those two are an upgrade from Brown and Beasely 2019.  Maybe not even as potent as Brown/Beasely 2022.  We're going backwards. The Bills desperately need a legitimate threat to go along with Digg, Shakir, and Kinkaid.

Edited November 7, 2023 by SoMAn

[Freddie's Dead]

These guys combined don't equal McKittrick, and he would have only cost 25% of what we're paying these wastes. 

[BillsFan692]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

You look at Harty's two most memorable plays this year:

 

The 10 yard First Down against Miami where he slides to catch a low ball, gets up and beats two guys to the sticks. 

 

The 10 yard First Down against New England where he makes 4 guys miss in a phone booth and picks up a first down. 

 

Both of those routes were simple routes to the sideline-flat. Nothing complicated, no motion, to jet sweep action, no trips action - those two plays just don't add up to me as to why he can't catch 2-3 of those kind of passes a game. 

 

But he's not on the field enough to even assess his routes so I can't tell you. 

 

There is nothing in the 15-20 yard area for this team outside of Diggs. You never see Harty over the middle, on a drag, on a slant or curl.

 

They threw a bomb to him in Cincy and he never saw the field again. 

 

 

 

Yah a bomb to the speed receiver that had a CB all over him like glue. He had zero separation the bengals cb looked faster than him.

[dorquemada]

beane attempts to build a team that can field an offense more modern than the Carter administration

 

Coach McDoofus and his lapdog Dorkey craft an offense that would be right at home in the era where the forward pass had just been legalized but is still frowned upon.   i bet he has a rotary phone in his house

[BillsFan692]

10 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

I  recently stumbled upon some comments from Bills fans dating back to 2017. I forget what site it was (a Facebook fan page?) I don't know how I got there, but it was amusing to read the comments. The comments were posted immediately after acquiring Kelvin Benjamin. There was great excitement and anticipation, believing he would bolster the receiving corps and the Bills would have one of the best group of receivers with him and Charles Clay on the field together.

 

In hindsight, it pretty laughable. But, it's typical of the fan reaction when we pick up some 'has-been' who another team has determined won't contribute much.

 

Sherfield and Harty are not 'has-beens', more like 'never-weres'. They're typical JAGs. Not bad, not great. Just guys who'll never hear the words pro bowl or hall of fame mentioned in the same sentence as their names.

 

I can't honestly say those two are an upgrade from Brown and Beasely 2019.  Maybe not even as potent as Brown/Beasely 2022.  We're going backwards. The Bills desperately need a legitimate threat to go along with Digg, Shakir, and Kinkaid.

Yet passed up DHop for a bunch pf jags a 33 yo rb and injury prone old dudes

[Dubie54]

9 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

I  recently stumbled upon some comments from Bills fans dating back to 2017. I forget what site it was (a Facebook fan page?) I don't know how I got there, but it was amusing to read the comments. The comments were posted immediately after acquiring Kelvin Benjamin. There was great excitement and anticipation, believing he would bolster the receiving corps and the Bills would have one of the best group of receivers with him and Charles Clay on the field together.

 

In hindsight, it pretty laughable. But, it's typical of the fan reaction when we pick up some 'has-been' who another team has determined won't contribute much.

 

Sherfield and Harty are not 'has-beens', more like 'never-weres'. They're typical JAGs. Not bad, not great. Just guys who'll never hear the words pro bowl or hall of fame mentioned in the same sentence as their names.

 

I can't honestly say those two are an upgrade from Brown and Beasely 2019.  Maybe not even as potent as Brown/Beasely 2022.  We're going backwards. The Bills desperately need a legitimate threat to go along with Digg, Shakir, and Kinkaid.

What's laughable is that nobody expects them to be pro bowl or HOFamers - just solid players with skills that can be utilized more effectively. When you draw up crappy routes, it's hard to take advantage of your talent.

[SoMAn]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

Yet passed up DHop for a bunch pf jags a 33 yo rb and injury prone old dudes

Yes. Show of hands-who actually thought Damian Harris would stay healthy for more than a few games. 

[The Frankish Reich]

17 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

Yah a bomb to the speed receiver that had a CB all over him like glue. He had zero separation the bengals cb looked faster than him.

He was wide, wide open on that deep ball that Allen overthrew a couple weeks ago.

Other than that, he hasn't shown anything.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

14 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

Yes. Show of hands-who actually thought Damian Harris would stay healthy for more than a few games. 

Mike Schopp said the other day that he should have been the starter. 

[The Frankish Reich]

13 minutes ago, SoMAn said:

Yes. Show of hands-who actually thought Damian Harris would stay healthy for more than a few games. 

To open another can of worms: they essentially "traded" Singletary for Harris. Singletary hasn't done much, and Harris has done less. But the major issue now: we're down late in the Cincy game. You'd think Cook would be on the field given his explosive speed/quickness. But ... no. They needed help in pass protection and they have zero faith in him to do that. So grind out the clock/short yardage guy Latavius Murray was out there.

Remember: running backs don't just take handoffs. They have other important jobs too.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

3 hours ago, boyst said:

sherfield never had a breakout year.

mckenzie did more on the football field than both combined.

harty is a 5th wr/gadget dude at most.

 

all three are JAGs

 

**i say it is not a breakout year because anyone could have put those numbers up.

Harty had a solid year in ‘21 500+ 16 YPC and then he got hurt.  Now that he’s healthy I thought thats how they would use him.  Get him upfield  to threaten the safeties and let Kincaid and Diggs work their magic underneath with the occasional deep shot but we just haven’t seen a ton of High low  concepts with Harty in the game.  I don’t understand it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Shanahan's Horseshoe

[JerseyBills]

I was very excited about Harty. Thought we'd see some John Brown esque type plays

[Matt_In_NH]

Throw to Davis more throw to Kincaid more throw to sherfield more throw to Harty more make sure Diggs get his share throw to rbs more.    There is only one ball

[Dubie54]

28 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

To open another can of worms: they essentially "traded" Singletary for Harris. Singletary hasn't done much, and Harris has done less. But the major issue now: we're down late in the Cincy game. You'd think Cook would be on the field given his explosive speed/quickness. But ... no. They needed help in pass protection and they have zero faith in him to do that. So grind out the clock/short yardage guy Latavius Murray was out there.

Remember: running backs don't just take handoffs. They have other important jobs too.

He's deadly out of the backfield and almost always open. Run play action, have him check block the end and drift out - almost always there.

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Sherfield had his breakout year in 2022. Behind Hill and Waddle, he was 3rd on the team in receiving yards:

                           30 rec         417 yds         YPC - 13.9       longest - 75 yds

 

 

So far in 2023, here's they stand:

 

Harty:                13 rec       113 yds      YPC -  8.7     longest - 43 yds

Sherfield:           7  rec         53 yds      YPC - 7.6      longest -  9 yds

 

Can't speak to Harty, but Sherfield's not much below his average per-season pace.  He's squarely on pace for what he did in three of five seasons otherwise on two different teams. 

 

He's also never had the competition for snaps that he's had here in Buffalo, including at Miami last season, where he was the #3 WR by default.  

 

When your competition for snaps is Cedric Wilson Jr., River Cracraft, and Braylon Sanders, who isn't even in the league now, then it's not difficult to log snaps and playing time.  

 

He was massively overrated coming here.  

 

 

[Dubie54]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Can't speak to Harty, but Sherfield's not much below his average per-season pace.  He's squarely on pace for what he did in three of five seasons otherwise on two different teams. 

 

He's also never had the competition for snaps that he's had here in Buffalo, including at Miami last season, where he was the #3 WR by default.  

 

When your competition for snaps is Cedric Wilson Jr., River Cracraft, and Braylon Sanders, who isn't even in the league now, then it's not difficult to log snaps and playing time.  

 

He was massively overrated coming here.  

 

 

Maybe so.....

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Maybe so.....

 

Well, this is his sixth NFL season.  In those six seasons, the sixth one still developing, on four different teams with different coaches, he's "amassed" a whopping 4 TDs, 12.1 YPR, and fewer than 200 yards per season.  

 

One would think that if he were something other than a JAG, he'd have proven it by now.  If you go back and look at the competition he's had for a #3 spot, it's incredibly weak wherever he was.  

 

Any WR that's currently on a roster in the NFL is capable of doing what he's done, particularly on a team with Allen as the QB.  

 

I'm surprised he's still on the team.  I sincerely believed that he'd have been cut by now.  

 

 

[Dubie54]

12 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, this is his sixth NFL season.  In those six seasons, the sixth one still developing, on four different teams with different coaches, he's "amassed" a whopping 4 TDs, 12.1 YPR, and fewer than 200 yards per season.  

 

One would think that if he were something other than a JAG, he'd have proven it by now.  If you go back and look at the competition he's had for a #3 spot, it's incredibly weak wherever he was.  

 

Any WR that's currently on a roster in the NFL is capable of doing what he's done, particularly on a team with Allen as the QB.  

 

I'm surprised he's still on the team.  I sincerely believed that he'd have been cut by now.  

 

 

I agree his body of work is not impressive but he put up decent numbers in a supporting role last year and I was hoping to see more of the same this year. So was last year an anomaly or do we just not know how to use him the way MIA was able to?

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

I will be interested to see what the WR depth chart looks like next season.  Davis is as good as gone. Some team will pay him north of 10 mil per.  

I'm sure we'll draft someone, when is anyone's guiess. A guy that be interesting would be Xavier Legette as he has size and speed and is in the Rounds 3-5 range. In terms of veterans I'd love to add Michael Pittman but think he'll ask more than we afford. 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

I agree his body of work is not impressive but he put up decent numbers in a supporting role last year and I was hoping to see more of the same this year. So was last year an anomaly or do we just not know how to use him the way MIA was able to?

 

If you throw the ball enough to any WR he'll log those numbers.  Don't forget too, that the Fins threw for nearly 4,800 yards last season.  

 

IMO he's the worst WR on our roster.  

 

Last season he only had two games with more than 3 catches, and only three games with more than 44 yards.  We can find all kinds of WRs that posted a 400 yard, 2 TD season as their big season.  

 

His catch% was also 58.8%, which is poor.  

 

I do think that part of his lack of use is coaching, but that doesn't mean to the tune of 500+ yards or anything.  If they tried to work him in more, 25 catches for 300 yards or so would be my expectation, nothing more.  

 

Right now he's WR5 with no one behind him besides the PS if there are any WRs on it.  Of course Kincaid is ahead of him in the gameday pecking order.  

 

 

[Dubie54]

49 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

If you throw the ball enough to any WR he'll log those numbers.  Don't forget too, that the Fins threw for nearly 4,800 yards last season.  

 

IMO he's the worst WR on our roster.  

 

Last season he only had two games with more than 3 catches, and only three games with more than 44 yards.  We can find all kinds of WRs that posted a 400 yard, 2 TD season as their big season.  

 

His catch% was also 58.8%, which is poor.  

 

I do think that part of his lack of use is coaching, but that doesn't mean to the tune of 500+ yards or anything.  If they tried to work him in more, 25 catches for 300 yards or so would be my expectation, nothing more.  

 

Right now he's WR5 with no one behind him besides the PS if there are any WRs on it.  Of course Kincaid is ahead of him in the gameday pecking order.  

 

 

I saw his career stats and I agree with your expectations on his production.  It's too bad Shorter went to IR because I think he could have been a useful weapon and maybe jumped ahead of Sherfield.

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

I really thought these two guys would help strengthen our receiving corps talent, based on what they had done recently in NO and MIA. They both played meaningful roles in those offenses and served as as strong contributors.

 

Harty had his breakout year in 2021 (he was hurt last year and saw limited action in 4 games), and no doubt we signed him based on his solid production in 2021. Besides being a solid return guy, in 2021 his receiving stats were:

                            36 rec        570 yds        YPC -  15.8         longest - 72 yds

 

The guy is quick and shifty and the Saints under Payton obviously found ways to utilize his speed and elusiveness. He was 2nd on the team in receiving yards.

 

Sherfield had his breakout year in 2022. Behind Hill and Waddle, he was 3rd on the team in receiving yards:

                           30 rec         417 yds         YPC - 13.9       longest - 75 yds

 

 

So far in 2023, here's they stand:

 

Harty:                13 rec       113 yds      YPC -  8.7     longest - 43 yds

Sherfield:           7  rec         53 yds      YPC - 7.6      longest -  9 yds

 

 

I know there are those who will say why do you want to throw more to these guys when you have Diggs/Davis/Kincaid. Well Miami last year, found a way to use Sherfield even though Hill had 119 rec. and Waddle had 75 rec., and Sherfield was gaining 14 YPC. Harty played on a team in 2021 that had a very mediocre receiving corps (no Michael Thomas that year) so he was asked to play a larger. What really stands out to me is the YPC under the current Bills offense. That may be based on the fact that they have been targeted on check downs more this year than in years past, but I also think it's a clear reflection of the short pass Dorsey scheme. 

 

I think under a more dynamic offense, both of these guys could contribute more. Why sign guys like these if you don't plan to work them into the offense - just to use them as decoys?    

   

 

We don't work any of these secondary wrs into the offense.  Hines, Harty & Sherfield have basically been invisible.  The money we spent on these 3 could've gone to an actual WR2.  Sorry Gabe.....