Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I agree with a lot of this, the average time to throw was a bit inflated by a handful of jailbreak scenarios where he had to run around like an idiot though. 
 

the giants game felt a lot more like josh was a victim than this one to me.  I think the delayed blitzes the last few weeks have him rattled and he’s completely lost faith in his internal clock 

 

it all kind of goes hand in hand, if the offensive line holds up a little better josh will improve and if josh plays a little better the offensive line will improve 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Billever76]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

It’s totally up to him but we may have seen the best of Josh Allen.

 

Put allen in a scheme that compliments his skill set and uncuff him and allen will shoot to the top of the qb rankings just like that.....this offense is a foreign offense to allen and one that is counterproductive to allot of the things allen excels at.....should have drafted a pocket passer with a fast release if this is what our offense was gonna look like lol

Edited October 24, 2023 by Billever76

[GETTOTHE50]

Lol he’s running for his life half the game. Hot read? More like hot feet 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree. And if they miss the playoffs with Josh Allen even if you don't think it is necessarily McDermott and Beane's "fault" per se if Josh is regressing you have to try a new regime in the hope it reinvigorates him. I agree with that. But you also have to go into that saying "it has 2 years to work, or else we have to look elsewhere at what the problem is."

I don’t think he’s regressing…he’s had these issues forever but he’s been playing under ideal circumstances in the regular season a much higher percentage of the time up until this point.  I think he’s actually playing a little bit better under these circumstances than before honestly.  Usually when his internal clock gets scrambled like it has been and he loses confidence we are absolutely dreadful 

 

 

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Somehow quoted myself and can’t delete it 😂

Edited October 24, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

54 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I would argue he'd be better off working on his mental lapses, as one would expect players at other positions to do.

i’d counter that we’d be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It’s year six for Allen. I think he’d have figured that out by now if it was something he could do with any kind of consistency.

 

If we know, he’s not gonna be consistent with the mental aspects of the game, then why reign in his athleticism?

[Billever76]

2 hours ago, Beast said:

Nah. Not at this point. Josh Allen is a veteran QB. You can’t have games against Miami when he decides to take what is given and multiple games like the Patriots game where it’s his way and not the team way. You can’t freaking tell me it’s not being drummed into his head to take the hot WR time and time again.

 

This is becoming a Josh Allen problem and Ken Dorsey appears to be the whipping boy for it.

Ken dorsey has put allen into a scheme that is Ken dorseys vision...this playbook is not how you use a Josh allen type qb...it's made for the Mac jones,baker mayfields,tuas and other quick release pocket passers...it's no wonder allen is struggling in it...a good coach designs a scheme that compliments the strengths of its top players.....ours sadly does not...it's the old stubborn coaching putting players into their system and demanding change in how the players have played ball since high school 😆 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

With all this said, I think a large part of this is on Beane. 

 

Allen feels like LeBron in Cleveland the first time around (and really the second as well) where they got him Diggs, and they simply don't have other weapons that scare you. 

 

I mean really, Emmanuel Sanders on the edge of retirement in 2021? The ghosts of Cole Beasley and John Brown brought back in 2022. Not drafting a single WR before Round 4 since 2017? 

 

Listen Beane's philosophy has been keep as much of the 2020-2022 Bills on this roster as possible. So we're paying Oliver, paying Poyer, paying Tre White, paying Milano, paying Hyde, paying Von, paying Allen, paying Dawkins, paying Morse, paying Knox and so on. 

 

Beane has done a good job with the limited space he's had to cram is as many NFL veterans as he can around these larger contracts - David Edwards, Leonard Floyd, Damien Harris, Taylor Rapp, Poona Ford. 

 

But the WRs in the draft didn't fall to the Bills, and FA was thin - so again the Bills remade their bottom 3 (Crowder, McKenzie, Kumerow) with another set of journeyman (Harty, Sherfield) and only have Shakir as a draft investment, unless you include Shorter who Beane noted was a project. 

 

There just aren't many WR playmakers on this team. And regardless of what betting odds tell you (Mike Schopp), the Bills are not the Chiefs.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

37 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

seems to me that the stuff over on the right was like his second or even third read, and by the time he looked over there, he was getting pressured.

I get the excuse but this is 3rd and goal. There’s 1 route possible to the left and the safety was sitting in the spot right from the snap. Backside they had a rub set for Knox. It was open. This is not a difficult read. This was a rookie play by the QB where he was 1 read and bail. Not good at all.

[VaMilBill]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

Honestly, I’ve thought about that. We could probably get another pick or two out of that trade as well. Maybe another 1st. 
 

Bring in a new coach as well

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

31 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

But those weapons come at an expense.  If you need to surround the guy with multiple top weapons then maybe you shouldn't be paying him $250M.  Go get Brock Purdy

I wonder if niners fans are saying the opposite right now haha. They just lost to a Justin Jefferson-less Vikings team and the pj walker browns so they’re goin through it also right now 😂

 

A win ahead of us with easily the best roster in the nfl.  Kirk cousins curse means they ain’t appearing in the superbowl too haha nobody has ever lost to Kirk cousins and made a superbowl in the same year 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bobby Hooks]

I think the issue is so beyond pointing out every single time it happens. 
 

We have an elite qb, we will live AND die with his play. 
 

Many have said he’s our Brett Favre. Simple, but very true. He’s a better Brett, don’t get me wrong. But he’s going to make mistakes and he’s going to have rotten games. 
 

Buckle up, this is our QB. Unfortunately, we had a lot of injuries, and those injuries have been to key players. Not many teams can take that kind of a lumping and keep going. For me, this season is not looking good. We lost last year when Von went out imo, and this year we lost when Tre, Milano, and Jones went out. Bums me out, but what can you do? We still have Josh in his prime. But things are only going to get more difficult as teams have definitely caught up. 
 

I also don’t feel good about Diggs going forward. I can’t see him being cool with a very bad season. Which this is a starting to look like. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Bobby Hooks

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

I don’t think this take is inconsistent with my point…it’s still ultimately the coaches’ responsibility and they will suffer the consequences if Josh doesn’t turn it around. It will take a lot more than one mediocre season for Josh Allen to be on the ropes in Buffalo.

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen is nearing the point of being on the ropes in Buffalo?

 

First off by every QB/team metric available Allen is having a very good year.  Is he playing as well or as consistently as 2020 & 21?  No.  But he's still a top 10 and in most metrics a top 5 QB. 

 

Second,with all due respects to Joe Marino I'll wait to hear from a couple of other analysts like Greg Cosell & that guy who runs the QB University before I uncritically accept Marino's criticisms as being true or not overstated.

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[SWATeam]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I wonder if niners fans are saying the opposite right now haha. They just lost to a Justin Jefferson-less Vikings team so they’re goin through it also right now 😂

 

A win ahead of us with easily the best roster in the nfl 

My point was not about them specifically, although they are banged up.

 

Just from a roster contractions stand point it's easier to create "the best roster in the NFL" when your not paying an elite QB.  The whole idea of the elite QB is to be able to lift up the lesser talent around them.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen is nearing the point of being on the ropes in Buffalo?

 

First off by every QB/team metric available Allen is having a very good year.  Is he playing as well or as consistently as 2020 & 21?  No.  But he's still a top 10 and in most metrics a top 5 QB. 

 

Second,with all due respects to Joe Marino I'll wait to hear from a couple of other analysts like Greg Cosell & that guy who runs the QB University before I uncritically accept Marino's criticisms as being true or not overstated.

 

 

 

The context gets lost when we’re losing and spiraling on this board.  Josh absolutely misses reads and doesn’t set the correct protections at times and misses throws but all the great qbs do.  People just don’t dig into the film of other teams much playing in non bills games 

 

can he improve absolutely, does he have inherent flaws that put him way behind other top qbs…I don’t think so 

[CincyBillsFan]

12 minutes ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Lol he’s running for his life half the game. Hot read? More like hot feet 

Marino's comments are sloppy IMO.  He calls out the O line and Cook's issues with picking up the blitz, factors know to create havoc with even the best QB's then lays the blame on Allen.

 

I suspect that Bellicheat looked at the tape and saw that Cook can't pick up the blitzer (something both Moss & Moter were very good at) and then ruthlessly exploited it.  I also suspect that with a few games tape in hand D coordinators are seeing some weaknesses in our new guards play and exploiting that.  And of course they already know where Brown can be exploited at RT.

 

 

[muppy]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

And this is where I think the loss of Daboll has effected him the most. Josh is still one of the best QB's in the game, top 3, but the loss of Daboll has taken it's toll on him in this area specifically. Just the breakdown of what he's seeing in front of him, things he and Daboll worked on prior to game day. 

good to read you mate. GO BILLS!

[All_Pro_Bills]

48 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

The 49ers won with a QB like Joe Montana.  Then they switched it up, and won with a QB like Steve Young.

 

I think the Bills regime (former Panthers as we all know) is scared of watching their star QB have a shortened career like Cam Newton, and have decided to buckle-down on the unnecessary hits at all costs -- and we are seeing the early results.  

 

The problem is... instead of seeing a Cam Newton career arc, they are going to turn Allen into Russell Wilson.  An elite NFL quarterback until he stopped using his legs, and tried to become an immobile pocket passer.

 

Josh takes way more big hits while in the pocket because of inadequate offensive line play and the occasional hero-ball play than he does when running the ball.  The problem isn't the running, its not being smart about taking unnecessary hits.  Get out of bounds and slide to avoid big impacts.  Fixing that is a no-brainer.  Fixing the blocking is another story.

[teef]

42 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Why wouldn’t people “like” this thread? The fascination with Allen being “elite” has become quite pathetic.

who are you to call anyone pathetic?  you're the most petty poster on this board.  

[78thealltimegreat]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

Have you watched Caleb Williams against a defense with a pulse?

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

I suck at recognizing sarcasm and this is sarcasm right????

 

But if you're serious and the Bill's put Allen on the market tomorrow he would command at a minimum THREE 1st round picks and probably a couple of 2nd rounders to.  And there would be 25 or more teams competing to make the trade.

 

 

 

 

[Success]

There are actually fans here suggesting that we trade Allen.

 

That is simply incomprehensible to me.  Does anyone remember the time between Kelly and Allen?  Does anyone remember Orton, Edwards, Losman, Lewis, Tuel?

 

It can take a LONG time to find a franchise QB.  And Allen is very likely to be the best QB in this franchise's history..

 

 

[ddaryl]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

Unfortunately the defenses we play are well aware of his strengths as well.

 

 

Yes but if he has time he has time. He is never going ot be the QB that pre-reads and make plays like consistently like some great QBs do in that type of offense

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

I suck at recognizing sarcasm and this is sarcasm right????

 

But if you're serious and the Bill's put Allen on the market tomorrow he would command at a minimum THREE 1st round picks and probably a couple of 2nd rounders to.  And there would be 25 or more teams competing to make the trade.

 

 

 

 

if you note, there's four firsts in there.

 

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

 

 

Yep, I think Josh is trying to work through a style change where he is taking himself out as a runner.  I think we are seeing growth pains as a result.  My hope is that it makes Josh better in the long run as he has all of the tools.

 

With the above said, I also think Dorsey is proving to be the wrong coach for Josh.  I’d bet that Josh would disagree but it is really not his decision.  

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Why would you look at Williams’ film against Notre Dame and Utah and decide he’s worth a top overall pick?

Pine Barren had to be expressing sarcasm at the direction this thread is going and not being serious here.  I mean if they made that trade I would bet my house that Chicago would be an immediate Super Bowl contender and actually win one in the next 5 years while the Bills returned to the football purgatory of the great drought.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

There are actually fans here suggesting that we trade Allen.

 

That is simply incomprehensible to me.  Does anyone remember the time between Kelly and Allen?  Does anyone remember Orton, Edwards, Losman, Lewis, Tuel?

 

It can take a LONG time to find a franchise QB.  And Allen is very likely to be the best QB in this franchise's history..

 

 

Honestly Joe Marino doesn’t he absolutely positively despises Josh Allen I never got his hate for the guy but anytime Joe does analysis of Josh he sounds like Nick Wright 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

if you note, there's four firsts in there.

 

So you're serious then. Okay but it will feel real crappy when Chicago is competing for and actually winning a Super Bowl in the next 5 ears while Buffalo falls back into football purgatory.

 

Oh and do you think Pegula will give Williams a piece of the Bills as part of that rookie contract?

 

[Mango]

55 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I think having a calm and more experienced OC would help Josh.  

 

This is fair. But I also don’t think Dorsey is bad enough that he’s “ruining Josh” or the offense. There’s a couple play concepts I don’t like. He’s had some moments where play calls are a bit head scratching. But he drew up and called some good games against the Jets, Raiders, Dolphins, and Pats. 
 

We’ve been hampered by execution errors. Some of that is definitely on him. But there’s some individual responsibility as well. 
 

We can also upgrade. I think the Bills are a little too far along to manage Dorsey’s growing pains. I think he’ll be a good coordinator down the line.  

[78thealltimegreat]

31 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Put allen in a scheme that compliments his skill set and uncuff him and allen will shoot to the top of the qb rankings just like that.....this offense is a foreign offense to allen and one that is counterproductive to allot of the things allen excels at.....should have drafted a pocket passer with a fast release if this is what our offense was gonna look like lol

After last night the niners are in a Super Bowl window and it’s clear the

league has caught up to Purdy we trade for Purdy and like 2-3 ones and niners get Josh? Who says no?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

So you're serious then. Okay but it will feel real crappy when Chicago is competing for and actually winning a Super Bowl in the next 5 ears while Buffalo falls back into football purgatory.

 

Oh and do you think Pegula will give Williams a piece of the Bills as part of that rookie contract?

 

I'm not, it's more of a thought exercise.

 

On one hand, I'm not happy with his play this year. If you watch all-22s, he's not even seeing wide-open guys all over the field. I don't know what's going on with him, I don't want him traded. But he's gotta extract his cranium from his rectal cavity.

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Honestly Joe Marino doesn’t he absolutely positively despises Josh Allen I never got his hate for the guy but anytime Joe does analysis of Josh he sounds like Nick Wright 

I'll wait to hear from Greg Cosell among others before accepting Marino as being correct here. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Honestly Joe Marino doesn’t he absolutely positively despises Josh Allen I never got his hate for the guy but anytime Joe does analysis of Josh he sounds like Nick Wright 

Josh misses a lot of easy reads. He’s an amazing talent which saves him. He’s not a rhythm passer. Not saying that’s a bad thing, Mahomes isn’t always a rhythm passer either.

[78thealltimegreat]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

I'll wait to hear from Greg Cosell among others before accepting Marino as being correct here. 

Josh Allen simply cannot have a “good” game to Joe you should listen to some of his previous analysis even after wins. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 minutes ago, Success said:

There are actually fans here suggesting that we trade Allen.

 

That is simply incomprehensible to me.  Does anyone remember the time between Kelly and Allen?  Does anyone remember Orton, Edwards, Losman, Lewis, Tuel?

 

It can take a LONG time to find a franchise QB.  And Allen is very likely to be the best QB in this franchise's history..

 

 

most of the people suggesting he be traded are just having a childish contrarian tantrum because it was objectively observed he hasn’t been playing well lately…. And they can’t bring themselves to accept it. 

[Mango]

58 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

He should but we're in year six.  I think he is who he is by now.

 

Take away his running and sometimes I feel like I'm watching Jeff George back there.

Athleticism and running need to be in addition to not in replacement of an NFL QB’s ability to diagnose and dissect with their arm. 
 

You can get by in the NCAA with it, and the NFL has moved in that direction over the last 10 years, but it’s not there yet. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Josh misses a lot of easy reads. He’s an amazing talent which saves him. He’s not a rhythm passer. Not saying that’s a bad thing, Mahomes isn’t always a rhythm passer either.

 

It's the same message that Kurt Warner has delivered, our Coaches have delivered: taking what the defense gives you. 

 

They are looking for that diagnosis and ball out to the easy read. 

 

When they see those options on film, they grade them as turndowns. 

 

And if it must be said, these aren't based on 2-3 hour video's where every play is analyzed. These are the general comments they provide. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Josh misses a lot of easy reads. He’s an amazing talent which saves him. He’s not a rhythm passer. Not saying that’s a bad thing, Mahomes isn’t always a rhythm passer either.

The front office isn't doing Josh any favors either.  Kincaid is a great add, but the other receivers brought in aren't an upgrade.  Watching MNF last night I'm left wondering and somewhat depressed how the Vikings (and some other teams) come up with so many great receivers, adding this kid Jordan Addison through the draft this year which all make slightly above average Kirk Cousins look the part of a franchise QB.  I'm left to imagine just how good the Bills offense would look with a couple of these receivers. 

[mannc]

28 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Are you seriously suggesting that Allen is nearing the point of being on the ropes in Buffalo?

 

 

 

 

Of course not.  

7 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Josh Allen simply cannot have a “good” game to Joe you should listen to some of his previous analysis even after wins. 

Wrong

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

McDermott must love that the offense is distracting from the fact that his defense just got carved up by the Mac Jones Patriots. 

 

We're arguing that Josh might've left some meat on the bone while ignoring that the DEF had the 2nd worst performance of the week across the entire NFL. 

 

This loss was almost entirely the defense's fault. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

32 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

My point was not about them specifically, although they are banged up.

 

Just from a roster contractions stand point it's easier to create "the best roster in the NFL" when you’re not paying an elite QB.  The whole idea of the elite QB is to be able to lift up the lesser talent around them.

It’s easier to create but how often does that hypothetical team play in the Super Bowl? Maybe you can count the eagles nick foles Super Bowl as that although that was kind of forced due to an injury they were still paying another qb. 
 

Great pass blocking has felt like the constant for me in very successful teams.  Cincy is up and down based on how those guys are playing up front as are we.  Kc is always near the leagues best in pass blocking,  Detroit has been near the leagues best since they went on their tear midseason last year, philly is near the leagues best, baltimores offensive line is playing well this season.  
 

not to say josh is blameless by any means  but qbs start to spiral/lose confidence when they are frequently under pressure and they start second guessing everything which causes the mistakes to pile up.  
 

I think we made a solid attempt at building our roster by the appropriate model  it just hasn’t worked out so far…a sure thing wr, sure handed slot ‘receiver’ that can move the chains,  solid investments in the offensive line, qb that can elevate a few role players, defense that has a few game changers that can get the big stops in the playoffs. things have been going sideways the last few weeks though. 
 

morse looks washed which is causing immense pressure on the interior.

defense lost literally all its gamechanging players.  Qb is overwhelmed and losing confidence.  There’s a lot of things that are causing bad play to snowball right now and nobody trusts the other units to bail them out

I went on a wild tangent haha but I think the odds of making a superbowl is a very long shot without 1-2 great receivers and a qb that can turn broken plays into huge gains and elevate the 3rd or 4th wr options.  49ers will always be consistent with purdy but I don’t think they’ll ever win it.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan