Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[Thurman#1]

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Thurman#1

[mannc]

I really like what Marino has been doing lately.  Definitely a must-listen.

[GunnerBill]

There is no doubt Josh deserves blame. Will watch the video to see if I agree with "a lot" but definitely some. The execution mistakes on offense were brutal and Josh was responsible for some of them. 

[jlgarsh]

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching. They've coached him so much nor to take off that he's overthinking the simple stuff. It's like he's a corvette but they want him to be a civic. Sure, the civic is reliable, but the corvette was what was special.

[Dopey]

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, jlgarsh said:

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching. They've coached him so much nor to take off that he's overthinking the simple stuff. It's like he's a corvette but they want him to be a civic. Sure, the civic is reliable, but the corvette was what was special.

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

But I thought it would all be fixed by firing Dorsey?  And getting more creative?  Josh can do no wrong....I thought

 

I listened this morning and it was great, it explained why the Bills got no pressure.....2.2s for Jones to throw the ball, it explained why Dorian Williams got benched...the Pats targeted him.   

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

 

THIS. That blitz on the drive that Bass missed the FG.... think it was on 2nd down.... You didn't need to be Tom Brady to see that the Pats might blitz on that play. They were showing you blitz. You have to know before it comes where your hot is and as soon as the ball is in your hands it needs to be gone again. I just do not understand what Josh was thinking on that play. It's where I would love to be in the film room with him and Joe Brady talking through that. What did you see? Why did you not throw the hot? 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

It’s hard for some people to understand that great QBs don’t always play great. Great QBs have bad plays, bad drives, and even bad games. 
 

When great QBs play bad we always blame others. It’s just how it goes. 

[Matt_In_NH]

10 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching

very scientific of you

[Beast]

It’s totally up to him but we may have seen the best of Josh Allen.

 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

We want him to run but all he has to do is dump it off to get easy yards. Let someone else take the hits. Several drive killing bad throws or reads. And then even the heroic ones were off. He scrambles right and makes an incredible effort to get the ball to Davis in the endzone. 6 inches lower and Davis makes that catch. 

The miss to Diggs deep was one of his worst passes in several years. It wasn't even close and Diggs never even broke stride. 

Allen is our only hope to overcome McDermott but he is regressing this season. Is that Dorsey not showing him how to take the underneath stuff. 

Did anyone ever criticize Joe Montana for a six yard completion to Roger Craig? Those dump offs didn't seem to hurt Rice's career.

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

THIS. That blitz on the drive that Bass missed the FG.... think it was on 2nd down.... You didn't need to be Tom Brady to see that the Pats might blitz on that play. They were showing you blitz. You have to know before it comes where your hot is and as soon as the ball is in your hands it needs to be gone again. I just do not understand what Josh was thinking on that play. It's where I would love to be in the film room with him and Joe Brady talking through that. What did you see? Why did you not throw the hot? 

What I’ve been saying.  He is not winning pre-snap.  He’s trying to pick the lock after the ball is snapped and is struggling to figure it out on the fly.  To me that SCREAMS a lack of film study and preparation.

 

I love Josh Allen.

 

Josh Allen is dogging this season.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

 

I agree. And if they miss the playoffs with Josh Allen even if you don't think it is necessarily McDermott and Beane's "fault" per se if Josh is regressing you have to try a new regime in the hope it reinvigorates him. I agree with that. But you also have to go into that saying "it has 2 years to work, or else we have to look elsewhere at what the problem is."

[Coach Tuesday]

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

[HardyBoy]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

 

Have they started getting plays in later in the play clock from what you have seen, after the 15 second helmet cutoff?

[mannc]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree. And if they miss the playoffs with Josh Allen even if you don't think it is necessarily McDermott and Beane's "fault" per se if Josh is regressing you have to try a new regime in the hope it reinvigorates him. I agree with that. But you also have to go into that saying "it has 2 years to work, or else we have to look elsewhere at what the problem is."

Yep.  I suspect there is a similar conversation taking place in Chargerland (if there is such a place) right now.

[Beast]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

Nah. Not at this point. Josh Allen is a veteran QB. You can’t have games against Miami when he decides to take what is given and multiple games like the Patriots game where it’s his way and not the team way. You can’t freaking tell me it’s not being drummed into his head to take the hot WR time and time again.

 

This is becoming a Josh Allen problem and Ken Dorsey appears to be the whipping boy for it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Beast

[mjt328]

Josh Allen is not going to be hugely successful as a pocket passer, who breaks down defenses quickly with his mind.

He's not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

 

If the coaches are going to take away his legs, we no longer have an edge at the QB position.

 

[Beast]

Just now, mjt328 said:

Josh Allen is not going to be hugely successful as a pocket passer, who breaks down defenses quickly with his mind.

He's not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

 

If the coaches are going to take away his legs, we no longer have an edge at the QB position.

 

I don’t believe that for one second. There was a time when Allen totally shredded a team that tried to bring extra men.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Beast said:

Nah. Not at this point. Josh Allen is a freaking veteran QB. You can’t have games against Miami when he decides to take what is given and multiple games like the Patriots game where it’s his way and not the team way. You can’t freaking tell me it’s not being drummed into his head to take the hot WR time and time again.

 

This is becoming a Josh Allen problem and Ken Dorsey appears to be the whipping boy for it.

I don’t think this take is inconsistent with my point…it’s still ultimately the coaches’ responsibility and they will suffer the consequences if Josh doesn’t turn it around. It will take a lot more than one mediocre season for Josh Allen to be on the ropes in Buffalo.

[DaggersEOD]

I miss the fired up leader Josh. 
 

I think that we may have gotten the wrong lesson from the 2020/Covid season with no fans. Thinking we need him to just be ice cold and detached to win. 
 

Watching him now, I get more Cutler vibes than Unquestioned Leader vibes. 
 

When was the last time we saw JA17 firing up the team?  It’s like he’s a shadow of himself. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, DaggersEOD said:

 

When was the last time we saw JA17 firing up the team?  It’s like he’s a shadow of himself. 

Sunday, after they scored the go-ahead TD.

 

Fire is not the issue.  It’s putting in the work to be great.

[Mr. WEO]

On 10/22/2023 at 9:37 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

So Williams plus Harrison has no appeal?

 

23 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

 

Penalty for crusading.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

13 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

The second he said he is as focused on football as he's ever been or something similar I knew he wasn't. You shouldn't have to say it, your actions should show it. This was first off-season we didn't really hear much about him working on stuff or him working with receivers. All we really heard about was his social life. 

[stlbills13]

I genuinely don't believe the coaching staff is putting Allen in the best position to use his strengths. He needs to run and be a playmaker. I think they took away the playmaker. He's still a great player but he isn't the elite player that needs to carry this team

 

That being said, he looks unprepared and just unattached as many have said. Whether that is coaching or his own decision is something we'll never know. But he just doesn't seem to have the same focus and energy as he has before. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Penalty for crusading.

 

 

5 yarder

 

[mjt328]

12 minutes ago, Beast said:

I don’t believe that for one second. There was a time when Allen totally shredded a team that tried to bring extra men.

 

Listen to the people doing All-22 breakdowns.  

More and more, they are starting to criticize Josh Allen for missing open receivers and mental errors.  

 

Fans don't realize how much the THREAT of a running QB changes things for a defense. 

They force you to utilize secondary players as spies.  They cause pass rushers to play more contain.  Defensive backs are worried about things happening behind them, instead of just coverage.  It helps open up things for the passing game.

 

Without his mobility, Allen is still a good quarterback.  He's just not elite.

And without an elite quarterback, our offense is average (at best).

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

5 yarder

 

 

How's your guy Williams looked the past 2 weeks?

[VW82]

I recall the run play to the left side going 2 on 4. It was just jarring and made me question whether Josh even has the ability to check out of something like that. High school QBs don't miss that stuff. 

[stlbills13]

1 minute ago, mjt328 said:

 

Listen to the people doing All-22 breakdowns.  

More and more, they are starting to criticize Josh Allen for missing open receivers and mental errors.  

 

Fans don't realize how much the THREAT of a running QB changes things for a defense. 

They force you to utilize secondary players as spies.  They cause pass rushers to play more contain.  Defensive backs are worried about things happening behind them, instead of just coverage.  It helps open up things for the passing game.

 

Without his mobility, Allen is still a good quarterback.  He's just not elite.

And without an elite quarterback, our offense is average (at best).

Exactly. And with a depleted defense you need an elite offense and an elite quarterback. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

How's your guy Williams looked the past 2 weeks?

He's not "my guy." I'm just throwing out options for the "bad Josh" crowd, man.

 

[dickleyjones]

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

 

It's both at once - imo the coaches are forcing the issue. He has to learn to process better and he can't do that running wild. also can't be done outside of real game action. Stay put and learn to process. If Allen can improve (doesn't have to be perfect) it adds a new dimension to his game which is a big step towards ultimate success.

Edited October 24, 2023 by dickleyjones

[pocoboy]

28 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

 

I don't think it's just him, but granted that if a captain is not, then that can have a negative affect on others.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

25 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Josh Allen is not going to be hugely successful as a pocket passer, who breaks down defenses quickly with his mind.

He's not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

 

If the coaches are going to take away his legs, we no longer have an edge at the QB position.

 

They aren’t. Josh makes plays out of the pocket still. He’s just not running. And I don’t think it’s all the coaches. People seem to forget Diggs telling Allen to play smarter when he took off vs the Jets and took hits.

 

Allen is trying to preserve his body. Plus he’s been banged up this season. 
 

People need to stop blaming the coaches for everything. We have banged up QB and the answer for some fans in week 7 is to get him more hits.

 

We’ll see if Allen runs when the season is on the line later in the year.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Roundybout]

40 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

Why would you look at Williams’ film against Notre Dame and Utah and decide he’s worth a top overall pick?

[SWATeam]

This is basically exactly what I've been seeing.

 

The disappointing thing is that we've seen him win with his mind before.  Early last season he looked in complete control like Peyton Manning at the line or something.  That 's the frustrating part, it's in there.  It just leads me to believe he is not putting in the work.

[Mango]

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

I don’t think Josh has ever had elite vision. I have been watching his A-22 for years saying even when he’s competing wow passes there are much more efficient decisions on the field.

 

I think he has always been late to throw. When he misses, he misses behind pretty often. His fast ball bails him out of a lot of issues. He has made a career out of pulling the trigger on things because he can, not because he should. Inevitably it will lead to some bad tendencies and a bit of over confidence in things he shouldn’t. 

 

Unlike every other position group, the QB hs to constantly evolve to stay ahead of defenses. Josh is working through some things that he’s tried to brute force his way through for a while. He’s going to have to figure out how to operate within his self no matter who the OC is. 
 

It is worth noting that Josh is working through his 3rd injury to his throwing arm in 3 years. The day where Josh needs to be more efficient and less of a hoss is probably coming sooner than we’d hope for.