Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[BuffaloBillyG]

37 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

Ever hear the phrase "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink"?

 

How do we know the coaching staff isn't doing all they can to prepare Allen and he's just not responding to it well? How do we know he's not focused elsewhere? We just don't.

 

Now I'm not saying that's what's happening because by the same token I'm not in the room with Allen and seeing what he's doing or the coaching staff is doing. But I also think blindly putting it all on coaching may not be the whole story.

[muppy]

26 minutes ago, Beast said:

Nah. Not at this point. Josh Allen is a veteran QB. You can’t have games against Miami when he decides to take what is given and multiple games like the Patriots game where it’s his way and not the team way. You can’t freaking tell me it’s not being drummed into his head to take the hot WR time and time again.

 

This is becoming a Josh Allen problem and Ken Dorsey appears to be the whipping boy for it.

oh SNAP Beast. Those are fighting words up in TBD. I think this thread is great.  I appreciate this discussion . To use analogy "Superman has lost his cape" 

 

It cannot be all one persons fault when things aren't working. Why did he lose his cape and how can he get it back?  I also don't know a truthful answer regarding his shoulder and its effect on his performance.

 

the plot thickens.

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

So what is changing from Allen’s performance vs the Raiders and Dolphins vs the basically the remainder of teams? I would say he was good not great against Washington. Were these games outlier? 
 

Do the Jags, Pats play a more physical style in your face type of Defense? 
 

Is it motivation?  Lack  of prep?

 

I don’t know but the contrast between the 2 games we scored a lot of points vs the last couple weekends is  really strange?

 

Somerhing has to be going on between his ears.. 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

Played lousy, put up 25 points (missed FG too) and dropped fourth down pass.

 

Oh and he's to blame for the Pats last drive too?

 

Maybe not his greatest game, but more then enough to win. 

 

Remember those saying "Just Win Baby"😉

[Westside]

The Allen haters are out in full force! He’s the reason they took the lead!! Marino is a average evaluator who gets things wrong as much as he gets things right. 
I’ve never seen such a fickle fan base. Let’s get rid of Josh and go back to the days of crappy Qb’s! 

[zow2]

It's a week to week league.  Brock Purdy had his crowning moment game in 2023 vs Dallas a few weeks ago.  Much like Josh Allen had his vs. Miami.  Defensive coordinators will scheme to take away whatever worked, and these QB's/OC's have to be smarter.  Most of the DC's will allow the shorter stuff.  Everyone knows that long drives are harder to finish.  Fumbles, INTs, failed 3rd and 4th down conversions, penalties, sacks, tipped passes, etc..

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

It is worth noting that Josh is working through his 3rd injury to his throwing arm in 3 years. The day where Josh needs to be more efficient and less of a hoss is probably coming sooner than we’d hope for. 
 

Unfortunately at this point I don't think he's all of a sudden going to turn into a film junky.  Sadly at this point my hope is that we just unleash him and go all Cam Newton.  Hopefully we catch lighting in a bottle and can steal one title.  The shooting star approach rather than sustained long term success.  I just don't see special attributes consistently enough when he's trying to win traditionally.

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

 

Have they started getting plays in later in the play clock from what you have seen, after the 15 second helmet cutoff?

 

Not noticeably.

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, Westside said:

The Allen haters are out in full force! He’s the reason they took the lead!! Marino is a average evaluator who gets things wrong as much as he gets things right. 
I’ve never seen such a fickle fan base. Let’s get rid of Josh and go back to the days of crappy Qb’s! 

No one ever says that.

 

When met with any criticism the reply is always- "i gUEss hE SUCks tHEN!!!"

Edited October 24, 2023 by SWATeam

[Westside]

Just now, SWATeam said:

Unfortunately at this point I don't think he's all of a sudden going to turn into a film junky.  Sadly at this point my hope is that we just unleash him and go all Cam Newton.  Hopefully we catch lighting in a bottle and can steal one title.  The shooting star approach rather than sustained long term success.  I just don't see special attributes consistently enough when he's trying to win traditionally.

You or anyone else in here know how much”film” he watches! Let’s make up stuff to make Allen sound even worse! This fan base doesn’t deserve to win. I’m more disappointed in how the fans turn on players and coaches so fast. Truly remarkable how hateful some people are!

[oldmanfan]

34 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t think this take is inconsistent with my point…it’s still ultimately the coaches’ responsibility and they will suffer the consequences if Josh doesn’t turn it around. It will take a lot more than one mediocre season for Josh Allen to be on the ropes in Buffalo.

So let me ask you this.  The coaches and Josh are watching the film from all games.  They are watching the film for upcoming opponents.  The coaches tell him:  when you see this, you need to go here with the ball.  But Josh doesn't.  Who is to blame?

 

We all love Josh, but he is not infallible and there are still parts of his game where he can improve.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

47 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

 

As great as Allen is I don't think any player is worth that compensation other than Mahomes. Four first round picks in their years with two of them basically guaranteed to be top 5. And with that said I still wouldn't even want to do it from our end. 

[SWATeam]

Just now, Westside said:

You or anyone else in here know how much”film” he watches! Let’s make up stuff to make Allen sound even worse! This fan base doesn’t deserve to win. I’m more disappointed in how the fans turn on players and coaches so fast. Truly remarkable how hateful some people are!

He said it himself on McAfee...  "I'm not a guy that overwatches film"

[Westside]

1 minute ago, SWATeam said:

No one ever says that.

 

When met with any criticism the reply is always- "i gUEss hE SUCks tHEN!!!"

When met with criticism?!?!?

You blame everything on him. He’s the ONLY reason this team has a chance to win every week! It’s time for his teammates to step up!

Just now, SWATeam said:

He said it himself on McAfee...  "I'm not a guy that overwatches film"

Doesn’t mean he doesn’t watch film. But let’s take it out of context and run with it!!

 

[Roundybout]

Yeah, Josh needs to make those plays. I get that. But also, once again, Josh dragged this team to win at the end of the game and the defense let him down. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

It is year six. Time to consider that Allen is who he is by this point. A top 5 player in the league who's mental processing will keep him from being a co-number one with Mahomes. If we want Allen to solidify himself as the #2 QB in the league he needs to be encouraged to run, not discouraged. It is what makes him special. 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Westside said:

The Allen haters are out in full force! He’s the reason they took the lead!! Marino is a average evaluator who gets things wrong as much as he gets things right. 
I’ve never seen such a fickle fan base. Let’s get rid of Josh and go back to the days of crappy Qb’s! 

No one is saying get rid of Josh, but in your hysteria over him getting some criticism you jump to that.  He is a great QB, but he has room to improve.  Film shows there are times he could take the easy completion for yardage and doesn't.  He did in the 3 games where the offense wiped folks out.  He just needs to get back to that.

[Westside]

38 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sunday, after they scored the go-ahead TD.

 

Fire is not the issue.  It’s putting in the work to be great.

You have no clue how much either puts in! Just making stuff up to advance your agenda. Truth be damned!

[CSBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

I remember watching that play and yelling at the TV, "WHY?" It was obvious to anyone paying attention.

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Westside said:

When met with criticism?!?!?

You blame everything on him. He’s the ONLY reason this team has a chance to win every week! It’s time for his teammates to step up!

Doesn’t mean he doesn’t watch film. But let’s take it out of context and run with it!!

 

lol, who is the most important player with the largest % of the cap and gets all the glory when they win?

 

Let's pin the blame on Kendal Vickers Tyrel Dodson!

 

Obviously he is great and we're lucky to have him.  He simply needs to be better and more consistent.  The frustrating part is we're not asking him to do something beyond his capabilities.  He has all the tools in the world, we're not sitting here with a maxed out Kurt Cousins.   

[muppy]

10 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

This is basically exactly what I've been seeing.

 

The disappointing thing is that we've seen him win with his mind before.  Early last season he looked in complete control like Peyton Manning at the line or something.  That 's the frustrating part, it's in there.  It just leads me to believe he is not putting in the work.

either he is not putting in the work.  But something appears to be clouding his thinking.  Which might it be? 

 

The brass tacks is His mental health is at question. Or his work ethic.   Leaving Dorsey out of the equation for the moment

 

oboi

 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Westside said:

You have no clue how much either puts in! Just making stuff up to advance your agenda. Truth be damned!

So this guy doesn't have a clue, but you do?  Only you know the truth?  Again, we all love Josh but one can love the QB and fairly critique his performance.  If you don't want to, go back to your room and kiss your Josh bobblehead doll.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

53 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

 

They have also told the most physically dominant QB in the league to not use his physical gifts. Don't run. He is running half as much this year. It's crazy.

 

 

[nedboy7]

Hope the team is actually taking accountability for their crap play unlike the blame game on here.  Josh has sucked as much as McD imo. 

[SWATeam]

5 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Yeah, Josh needs to make those plays. I get that. But also, once again, Josh dragged this team to win at the end of the game and the defense let him down. 

A defense down half it's starters trying to hold up a dormant offense for 3.5 quarters.  Let's not mention the takeaway to even get them in position to take the lead.

 

Our fully healthy elite offense needs to carry this, unfortuantely, undermanned defensive unit.  Not the other way around.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

They have also told the most physically dominant QB in the league to not use his physical gifts. Don't run. He is running half as much this year. It's crazy.

 

 

They want him to slide if he runs, which is reasonable.

[mjt328]

11 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

So what is changing from Allen’s performance vs the Raiders and Dolphins vs the basically the remainder of teams? I would say he was good not great against Washington. Were these games outlier? 
 

Do the Jags, Pats play a more physical style in your face type of Defense? 
 

Is it motivation?  Lack  of prep?

 

I don’t know but the contrast between the 2 games we scored a lot of points vs the last couple weekends is  really strange?

 

Somerhing has to be going on between his ears.. 

 

 

My feeling is that Buffalo's coaching staff came into the season telling him to run less.

Again, it's not JUST the yardage he picks up with his legs.  It's how the THREAT of running forces defenses to play against the Bills.

 

It wasn't until the Jaguars game that defenses began realizing... "Hey, Allen isn't running much anymore.  Let's adjust how we are doing things."

Now everyone is picking up on it.

 

[oldmanfan]

There is not a single player or coach on the team right now that should not be looking in the mirror and asking themself what they can be doing better to help the team win.  Josh included.

[ddaryl]

Josh has never been quick to go through progressions. I beleive Dorsey's offence needs a QB who can disect a D before the snap and to go though progressions quickly.

Which is why the lack of any serious investment in the OL and the over focus on DL has been questioned by many of us 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

25 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Why would you look at Williams’ film against Notre Dame and Utah and decide he’s worth a top overall pick?

 

Again, these are the hypotheticals for what I'd want in return.

 

also, remember, Josh's film from Wyoming wasn't spectacular.

 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, ddaryl said:

Josh has never been quick to go through progressions. I beleive Dorsey's offence needs a QB who can disect a D before the snap and to go though progressions quickly.

Which is why the lack of any serious investment in the OL and the over focus on DL has been questioned by many of us 

I'm all for building from the lines out, but I don't see what that has to do with Josh and pre-snap reads.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

They want him to slide if he runs, which is reasonable.

 

How does he have half as many runs as years past then? That is more than just getting in his head about sliding. If that was the case he would maybe half 20% less runs but not half as many. As @Big Turk pointed out, we are taking the league's most physically gifted and dominant QB and turning him into Justin Herbert. And now we are getting LA Chargers results. 

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Josh has never been quick to go through progressions. I beleive Dorsey's offence needs a QB who can disect a D before the snap and to go though progressions quickly.

Which is why the lack of any serious investment in the OL and the over focus on DL has been questioned by many of us 

Oline spending ranks pretty high.  The have a highly paid LT, highly paid C, an early pick at RG and and their prized FA acquisition for the year at LG.  They also have nice depth and even the weak spot (RT) was a 3rd round pick.

 

I think the line had been much improved this year.

[ddaryl]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I'm all for building from the lines out, but I don't see what that has to do with Josh and pre-snap reads.

If Josh has time to let plays develop he can pick apart teams. Its the quick passing game up tempo Offense that most of the NFL uses that is not Josh's strength IMO. Josh is never going to be a Brady who was a master at pre snap reads

Receivers have more time to get speration with a stronger OL and pass blocking in general. Josh can find open receivers better. 

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

How does he have half as many runs as years past then? That is more than just getting in his head about sliding. If that was the case he would maybe half 20% less runs but not half as many. As @Big Turk pointed out, we are taking the league's most physically gifted and dominant QB and turning him into Justin Herbert. And now we are getting LA Chargers results. 

Yet everyone was screaming before about him running too much...  Doesn't help that when he does run his brain seems to turn off and he's looking for contact or a reason to attempt a hurdle or something stupid.  One of the frustrating things about Mahomes is that he's always scampering around but never seems to get hit.

[muppy]

26 minutes ago, Westside said:

The Allen haters are out in full force! He’s the reason they took the lead!! Marino is a average evaluator who gets things wrong as much as he gets things right. 
I’ve never seen such a fickle fan base. Let’s get rid of Josh and go back to the days of crappy Qb’s! 

I think this posts reads like a temper tantrum from you Westside.  Absolutely Noone in this thread doesn't appreciate the fact we have a franchise QB in Josh Allen. Please don't get that twisted.

[boater]

Too blame? How can this be? I have fifteen pages right here: How Good is Josh Allen Really? of Bills fans predicting HoF for Josh.

[ddaryl]

2 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

Oline spending ranks pretty high.  The have a highly paid LT, highly paid C, an early pick at RG and and their prized FA acquisition for the year at LG.  They also have nice depth and even the weak spot (RT) was a 3rd round pick.

 

I think the line had been much improved this year.

 

 

Unfotunaltey money spent does not translate to a the OL we would like to see. Dawkins is average, and coming in to camp out of shape is no good. RT is ugly. Our center does ok but is not a stud either.

the line is improved but still not good enough obviously. Josh needs more time and better overall pass blocking. Or he needs to be able to master the quick passing game by indetifying the D pre-snap. We have heard he doesn't do a lot of film study and that is because thats not his strength. Therefore you have to playt to his strengths, and that is something Beane and comapny are not very good at

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I'm all for building from the lines out, but I don't see what that has to do with Josh and pre-snap reads.

On Sunday when the offense took the field my wife made a real-time comment and said the camera close-ups of Allen showed a look in his eyes that indicated Josh is not mentally focused on the game.  Then he threw the INT on the first play.

 

 

[Roundybout]

14 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

Again, these are the hypotheticals for what I'd want in return.

 

also, remember, Josh's film from Wyoming wasn't spectacular.

 

Counterpoint, Josh wasn’t hyped as the Second Coming of Christ