The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[Scott7975]

10 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

It matters To me not if you wish to make claims and not back them. 

 

From the horses mouth...

Quote

 

Allen explained the disparity this way.

“Throwing to the open guy and you know, he does a good job of getting open and making plays with the ball in his hands and when you have a receiver as talented as him and he’s your first read in a lot of concepts and he’s open, you can’t really pass him up,” Allen said.

 

 

[GETTOTHE50]

Dorsey’s shotgun runs are the equivalent of guessing C on an multiple choice exam when you don’t know what to do but are still confident you’ll ‘pass’

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

We're objectively the third best offense in the league and the entire offense needs to be overhauled?  Talk about recency bias.

 

It’s about scoring points. The Bills’ offense scored zero points through three quarters against the Giants’ average defense, following up on last week’s performance where they managed 7 points vs the Jags through three and a half quarters.  And we don’t even want to talk about their performance against the only other good defense they’ve faced…That’s three out of six games where the offense was objectively putrid.  Sorry, not good enough, no matter what the “offensive efficiency” stats say.

[GoBills808]

20 minutes ago, mannc said:

It’s about scoring points. The Bills’ offense scored zero points through three quarters against the Giants’ average defense, following up on last week’s performance where they managed 7 points vs the Jags through three and a half quarters.  And we don’t even want to talk about their performance against the only other good defense they’ve faced…That’s three out of six games where the offense was objectively putrid.  Sorry, not good enough, no matter what the “offensive efficiency” stats say.

They're third in points

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, mannc said:

It’s about scoring points. The Bills’ offense scored zero points through three quarters against the Giants’ average defense, following up on last week’s performance where they managed 7 points vs the Jags through three and a half quarters.  And we don’t even want to talk about their performance against the only other good defense they’ve faced…That’s three out of six games where the offense was objectively putrid.  Sorry, not good enough, no matter what the “offensive efficiency” stats say.

 

It's about consistency. They have been way too feast and famine this year.

[Doc Brown]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

It’s about scoring points. The Bills’ offense scored zero points through three quarters against the Giants’ average defense, following up on last week’s performance where they managed 7 points vs the Jags through three and a half quarters.  And we don’t even want to talk about their performance against the only other good defense they’ve faced…That’s three out of six games where the offense was objectively putrid.  Sorry, not good enough, no matter what the “offensive efficiency” stats say.

Okay.  I'll guess I'll look at their offense in a vacuum like you are and pretend that every offense in the league doesn't go into a rut.  They had a bad first half in the Giants game with long plays that would've worked if the WR's could keep their feeting, a fumble by Davis, and a great play by the LB on the INT when Knox was open for the first down.  Bad half.  Whatever.  They weren't sharp and Martindale got the better of Dorsey.  However, how did they respond in the second half? 

 

First drive goes 17 plays for 89 yards and a touchdown taking 9:58 seconds off the clock.  They were incredibly proficient in the 3rd quarter and just happened to get the TD on the first play of the 4th quarter.  Second drive goes 12 plays for 75 yards for a TD taking 6:47 seconds off the clock.  Two TD drives taking up nearly 17 minutes is impressive.  Giants dared us to string long drives together in the second half and they responded.   Third drive Josh would've iced the game with a good throw and it was perfectly set up for him to make it.  I can't blame Dorsey on that although I'll nitpick in maybe you design that play to someone other than Knox who was dealing with a wrist injury and will never be known for having great hands.  The two missed field goals also didn't help.  

 

If they continue to be as inconsistent as they were over the next couple of games then I'll be concerned.  However, they were flawless against the Raiders and Dolphins so I'm not going to ignore those games so I can panic over the first half of the last two.

[4merper4mer]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

It's not once a week.  Receivers make hard catches all the time across every game.  Receivers aren't just paid to catch balls thrown to their chest. They are paid to make difficult catches as well.  Could the pass have been better?  Of course, but these receivers are paid and expected to catch the ones not perfect.  You don't watch enough football if you think that pass shouldn't have been caught.

 

 

This pass was thrown low and way behind Kelce.  IOW Kelce was running away from this pass towards the left sideline.  Thats why you see that big patch of turf in the air from his slide to catch it.  This is what good receivers do every game.  They catch the not perfect pass.

 

 

 

Because of files size limits on this board I have to continue this in another post...

 

This is from the Jets game as I dont have a screen shot from last night but all 3 plays are similar.  This is what Knox does...

 

 

He drops the damn football.

Should I post pictures of accurately thrown passes now?  

[mannc]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

They're third in points

And yet in half their games this year, they have struggled mightily to score.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, mannc said:

And yet in half their games this year, they have struggled mightily to score.

 

And not just score... they have struggled to even move the ball. It hasn't been in those games that they have been settling for 3s or stalling just outside the high red zone. They have been having to punt from their own territory in the last two weeks (week 1 they barely punted but they turned it over tons). 

[mjt328]

I don't want to hear about DVOA stats or where the Bills "rank" this year.  The fact is, they have played 6 games this season and the offense has been bad in half of them.  It has resulted in two losses, and what really should have been a third loss on Sunday night.

 

The Bills will have a stretch of games where they roll and everything seems easy.  Then suddenly, the same problems start creeping up again:

-  Relying too much on Stefon Diggs, and nobody else stepping up in the passing game.

-  Getting away from the running game and becoming too one-dimensional.

 

 

It's either the coaches, or the players, or a little bit of both.

I'm not 100% sure where the problem lies.  But I'm getting tired of the fans who want to pretend there is no problem.  That tell us teams just go through funks and everything will be sorted out.  They ignored the warning signs last year, yelled at everyone else for being "negative" and were legitimately shocked when the Bills got an early exit from the playoffs. 

 

If things don't get fixed ASAP, this team won't be fighting Miami for the AFC East title in December.  They will be fighting for 2nd Place against the Jets, hoping Aaron Rodgers doesn't somehow comeback in Week 15, and crossing our fingers for a Wild Card spot.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

I am starting to worry a bit that Allen’s admitted lack of interest in film study is causing some of the presnap identification and protection issues we’re seeing.  Allen seems to be too often looking for answers after the ball is snapped, as opposed to beforehand.  That puts a ton of added pressure on the playcaller and the offense as a whole.

 

Sorry to be sacrilegious.  I’m not sure Dorsey bears all of the blame here.

[GottaRun]

Is there a place to see how the first drive of the first and second half have gone this season?  In my mind they have been horrible but I'm curious if they are as bad as I remember.  Do those drives reflect more on Dorsey than others as those drives are scripted with plenty of prep.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

I am starting to worry a bit that Allen’s admitted lack of interest in film study is causing some of the presnap identification and protection issues we’re seeing.  Allen seems to be too often looking for answers after the ball is snapped, as opposed to beforehand.  That puts a ton of added pressure on the playcaller and the offense as a whole.

 

Sorry to be sacrilegious.  I’m not sure Dorsey bears all of the blame here.

 

This. Allen misses a LOT of wide-open reads. I'm sure dorsey shares some of the blame, but the melon farmer needs to do better

 

[PaattMaann]

First three drives against the Giants...

 

1. Stef diggs drop and gabe davis incompletion...which of those missed executions is on Dorsey there? 

2. Bills moving the ball down the field with ease, Gabe Davis fumbles in giants territory...that is somehow on Dorsey?

3. Drove the ball 40 yards down to the Giants 37 and then Diggs gets tackled 1 on 1 in the open field for no gain, Josh incomplete to Knox ends drive at the 37. Ok, maybe Dorsey should have called better plays there? Maybe it was good play design to get your Alpha WR 1 on 1 against a tiny DB and expecting him to get some YAC instead of tackled immediately? But I am sure everyone will jump on the latter part of this stalled drive instead of the big chunk play and the 10 yard run design and call that got them down inside Giants territory. 

Then to end the half we get an INT and missed FG. 

 

Second half we scored on all three possessions. 

 

Sometimes it is just hard to win in the NFL, and WE DID. Could offense have executed better? Hell yea, every offense in every game can execute better (except for a couple of Ken Dorsey called games where they were essentially perfect offensive performances, but yea, Dorsey cant run an offense). 

 

Fire Dorsey lol, some people just don't know ball...or at least don't understand the nuance of football.

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

First three drives against the Giants...

 

1. Stef diggs drop and gabe davis incompletion...which of those missed executions is on Dorsey there? 

2. Bills moving the ball down the field with ease, Gabe Davis fumbles in giants territory...that is somehow on Dorsey?

3. Drove the ball 40 yards down to the Giants 37 and then Diggs gets tackled 1 on 1 in the open field for no gain, Josh incomplete to Knox ends drive at the 37. Ok, maybe Dorsey should have called better plays there? Maybe it was good play design to get your Alpha WR 1 on 1 against a tiny DB and expecting him to get some YAC instead of tackled immediately? But I am sure everyone will jump on the latter part of this stalled drive instead of the big chunk play and the 10 yard run design and call that got them down inside Giants territory. 

Then to end the half we get an INT and missed FG. 

 

Second half we scored on all three possessions. 

 

Sometimes it is just hard to win in the NFL, and WE DID. Could offense have executed better? Hell yea, every offense in every game can execute better (except for a couple of Ken Dorsey called games where they were essentially perfect offensive performances, but yea, Dorsey cant run an offense). 

 

Fire Dorsey lol, some people just don't know ball...or at least don't understand the nuance of football.

 

 

 

We didn't score on the third possession in the second half, we missed another FG. But that play to ice the game is not on Dorsey... he dialled a good play up. Allen threw it poorly and Knox couldn't reel it in (when he probably should have). I do have issue with the play calling on that series though. The easiest down there to find the roll out pass is 1st down BUT, it is a fair challenge, ultimately had they executed better then they'd have iced it anyway. 

 

It is also a fair challenge on the earlier drives - and execution flaws definitely hurt - on the throw outside to Diggs Josh always seems to throw those a bit high as well which means the receiver loses momentum while they secure the catch and makes the tackle for the DB easier. But just generally I think the playcalling in the first half was confused. It lacked rhythm, it liked coherence and yes - we made some plays - but I'm not sure what we were trying to establish. The blame is certainly not all on Dorsey, but he did not call a good first half IMO. 

[Nihilarian]

My take is the Buffalo Bills just played a team against a former Buffalo offensive coordinator who knows their playbooks inside out. The play calls, the language, the nomenclature, they study film and the Giant's defense... as injury-depleted as they were...they knew exactly what the Bills offense was going to do as they were doing it.

 

If I can say one thing, that the offense got away from the 12, and 13 formations that they had run so well against Miami. But then, that might have been because Knox had a wrist injury and Dalton was in concussion protocol so they were down a bit with their TEs. 

 

Now, the hated NE Patriots are up next at NE. They currently have a bad offense, 31st in points scored, and 27th in yards. Their defense is 24th in points allowed, and 10th in yards allowed. 

 

My take is the Bills will find their footing outta the gate and destroy this bad team. Go Bills!

[Peter]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

So stats pulled from an article I can't read but it was about the Chicago Bears with Justin Fields offense.  Good model lol.  Also stat show 17% of the time.  Pretty low amount.  I'm sure there is a reason for that.  Probably because when you are at the half yardline its not a good idea to hand the ball off from pistol formation 6+ yards back.  Especially when your QB is almost automatic in that situation.  Dorsey was trying to get cute and it was a bad call.  If they got a TD off that play I still would have said it was a bad call.

 

 

You want to push your anti Dorsey narrative so badly that you are willing to blindly ignore that the TD percentage at the goal line out of the shotgun is more than otherwise.

 

I get it. You don't like Dorsey and you will not let facts get in the way.

 

God bless.

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, mannc said:

And yet in half their games this year, they have struggled mightily to score.

So have the Chiefs

 

Should their OC get fired too

[Fleezoid]

The offensive line is better. The running game is better. In my opinion, we have a better receiver group, yet the offense is regressing. I don't need stats and a bunch of number narratives to tell me otherwise. My eyes see what they see, and it's not good. The Bills were recently good at nationally televised games. They stunk in all 3 this year. 

[Franco_92]

2 minutes ago, Fleezoid said:

The offensive line is better. The running game is better. In my opinion, we have a better receiver group, yet the offense is regressing. I don't need stats and a bunch of number narratives to tell me otherwise. My eyes see what they see, and it's not good. The Bills were recently good at nationally televised games. They stunk in all 3 this year. 

They are regressing by improving in both efficiency and scoring over last year and 2021, because you just know it and say so. Compelling 

[Fleezoid]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

They are regressing by improving in both efficiency and scoring over last year and 2021, because you just know it and say so. Compelling 

 

They lost to the Jets, Jacksonville and should have lost to the Giants. Yeah, this offense is a juggernaut! 3 blowouts out of 6 games is artificially inflating the stats!

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Fleezoid

[Royale with Cheese]

He sounded so unsure of himself in his press conference.

[Logic]

14 hours ago, FireChans said:

If ranking matters that much, why is the phone not ringing off the hook for Kenny to become an HC?

 

I mean, Daboll oversaw 1 top ranked year and was getting HC buzz. After his second year, he was the talk of the town.

 

Why does no one want Kenny?  Is it because folks around the league see him doing less with more when he has a top 3 QB and aren't impressed with whatever the dumb stats say?

It's literally Dorsey's second year as offensive coordinator. 

Brian Daboll was the offensive coordinator for four years here before he got a head coaching gig.

[mannc]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

So have the Chiefs

 

Should their OC get fired too

That’s just not the case

[Livinginthepast]

The one thing that irks me most about vanilla Dorsey is that he doesnt really challenge the talent on this offense with innovative play designs. I have not seen much in the way of trickery or schemes that are complex. Does he not trust these guys to pull off complicated plays? Daboll had confidence in Josh to run that kind of offense but Dorsey seems a little scared. What has resulted is a predictable offense that defensive coaches can neutralize (if they plan properly).

[Nuncha]

On 10/16/2023 at 9:37 AM, Dopey said:

A lot worse. Josh led the league in turnovers the last few years. Stop it. 

 

So Josh will turn it over as much or more if he calls his own plays? LOL.

[eball]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:42 PM, VaMilBill said:

Guy can’t call a decent offense. We saw it all game that running the ball from under center was working. Why abandon that so quickly. 
 

Heck, Daboll seemed to run the same play 5 times in a row in the second drive of the second half. If it works, keep using it. 
 

Josh in the gun on then 1 inch line is inexcusable. 
 

Ken can’t adjust and has been a bad OC since the second half of the GB game last year. He needs to go ASAP

 

Three possessions in the 2nd half.  TD, TD, missed FG after Josh threw a bad ball to Knox.

 

You were saying?

 

[Big Turk]

Is this the Fire Dorsey parade led by OP?

 

[Royale with Cheese]

I don't think we need to start having fun on offense.

 

Something like a misdirection, jet sweep with Harty, or Knox which Daboll did once for positive yards....it just looks like we are being so by the book that we don't have the defense guessing.  On playaction I was watching the linebackers and they weren't biting.

[LABILLBACKER]

27 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

The one thing that irks me most about vanilla Dorsey is that he doesnt really challenge the talent on this offense with innovative play designs. I have not seen much in the way of trickery or schemes that are complex. Does he not trust these guys to pull off complicated plays? Daboll had confidence in Josh to run that kind of offense but Dorsey seems a little scared. What has resulted is a predictable offense that defensive coaches can neutralize (if they plan properly).

And that is his biggest and most obvious flaw. Dorsey will likely never develop into someone like Daboll, who can at least scheme.  Ken takes the same tired shotgun draw and cram it down our throats. Daboll would at least see the value of giving James Cook a running start.  Both guys still suck at developing a top 10 OL.  This team's not going deep into the playoffs with a scrub 7th round qb converted to OC.

Edited October 17, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[Nitro]

As much as I am annoyed by the play selection this season, worse is individual break downs that stymie drives.  Starts with Allen and spreads through the rest of the offense.  Each man has to do better and the team will improve.  Dorsey seems to be a feast or famine OC.  He needs guidance in this area.  I wish we had a retired coach like the late Teddy Marchibroda to mentor him.

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Peter said:

 

You want to push your anti Dorsey narrative so badly that you are willing to blindly ignore that the TD percentage at the goal line out of the shotgun is more than otherwise.

 

I get it. You don't like Dorsey and you will not let facts get in the way.

 

God bless.

 

No.  Its a dumb play because its a dumb play.  Nobody uses it because its a dumb play.  It's completely dumb to move the ball back 6-7 yards and give the ends an angle on you when you only need inches.  Its dumb and it will always be dumb.  Most of those conversions that you cite are probably some kind of trick play and those were dumb too.

7 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Should I post pictures of accurately thrown passes now?  

 

You can if you like, but that won't take away from the fact that receivers are still expected to catch off target passes.  Thats what they are paid for.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by Scott7975

[4merper4mer]

21 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

 

You can if you like, but that won't take away from the fact that receivers are still expected to catch off target passes.  Thats what they are paid for.  

Are QBs paid to throw accurate passes or go to Hollywood parties?  
 

 

[Amorgus]

27 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

No.  Its a dumb play because its a dumb play.  Nobody uses it because its a dumb play.  It's completely dumb to move the ball back 6-7 yards and give the ends an angle on you when you only need inches.  Its dumb and it will always be dumb.  Most of those conversions that you cite are probably some kind of trick play and those were dumb too.

 

You can if you like, but that won't take away from the fact that receivers are still expected to catch off target passes.  Thats what they are paid for.  

I also find it hard to believe that throwing the ball backwards that far works out positively THAT much. If someone manages to make Josh fumble, then so be it. I think trusting him to pound ahead for a yard or two at the goal line with work much higher than 70% of the time. 

[Peter]

35 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

No.  Its a dumb play because its a dumb play.  Nobody uses it because its a dumb play.  It's completely dumb to move the ball back 6-7 yards and give the ends an angle on you when you only need inches.  Its dumb and it will always be dumb.  Most of those conversions that you cite are probably some kind of trick play and those were dumb too.

 

 

I did not realize that it increasing your scoring chances is a "dumb play." That is a ground breaking take.

 

The stats clearly show that operating out of the shotgun at the goal line is a legitimate option and one that is used. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem whether the Bills do one or the other at the goal line. Both are legitimate options. To pretend that one is a "dumb play" reveals your bias against Dorsey.

 

Nevertheless, I suspect that you are not going to let reality interfere with your anti Dorsey narrative.  

 

 

[Scott7975]

6 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

I did not realize that it increasing your scoring chances is a "dumb play." That is a ground breaking take.

 

The stats clearly show that operating out of the shotgun at the goal line is a legitimate option and one that is used. As far as I am concerned, I have no problem whether the Bills do one or the other at the goal line. Both are legitimate options. To pretend that one is a "dumb play" reveals your bias against Dorsey.

 

Nevertheless, I suspect that you are not going to let reality interfere with your anti Dorsey narrative.  

 

 

 

Tell you what... when you find pistol formation run plays from the half yard line this year feel free to link them to me and prove me wrong.  I suspect you won't find many if any.

29 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Are QBs paid to throw accurate passes or go to Hollywood parties?  
 

 

Of course they are and when they don't the receiver is expected to catch them.  That wasn't an unreasonable expectation to catch that ball no matter how much you want to bang the table for it. Those off target passes are caught all the time.

[Peter]

14 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Tell you what... when you find pistol formation run plays from the half yard line this year feel free to link them to me and prove me wrong.  I suspect you won't find many if any.

Of course they are and when they don't the receiver is expected to catch them.  That wasn't an unreasonable expectation to catch that ball no matter how much you want to bang the table for it. Those off target passes are caught all the time.

 

I linked the article and summarized the stats.

 

I get it. You don't like Dorsey.  Nothing is going to convince you otherwise.

 

In the meantime, my opinion will continue to be guided by reality.

 

God bless.

 

P.S. I am done arguing with you today. This exercise has reminded me why I stopped being as active on this site a few years ago. Life is way too short. You can respond any way you want and have the last word. Frankly, I just don't care.

[Scott7975]

38 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

I linked the article and summarized the stats.

 

I get it. You don't like Dorsey.  Nothing is going to convince you otherwise.

 

In the meantime, my opinion will continue to be guided by reality.

 

God bless.

 

P.S. I am done arguing with you today. This exercise has reminded me why I stopped being as active on this site a few years ago. Life is way too short. You can respond any way you want and have the last word. Frankly, I just don't care.

 

I dont care about some summarized stats from an article that I can't read. For all I know, those stats might be 20 years old.  They also might not be from the half yard line.  They also might not be conventional plays.  Shotgun formation still is not the same as pistol formation. They also indicate that teams very very rarely run shotgun from there. 17% is miniscule. 

 

So again, if you want to show me some actual plays then maybe but you can't so....

 

Your opinion is just that.  Your opinion. 

 

God bless.

 

Adios.  Seems you can't handle a conversation where other people simply don't just agree with you because you say so.  It's not like I got personal with you or anything.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Scott7975

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:47 PM, 1ManRaid said:

 

Oh God thanks for reminding me about shotgun inside the 1.  We have possibly the best QB sneaker in history and I don't remember the last time a sneak was called.

Tom Brady is greatest QB sneaker I think

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

Of course they are and when they don't the receiver is expected to catch them.  That wasn't an unreasonable expectation to catch that ball no matter how much you want to bang the table for it. Those off target passes are caught all the time.

It is not in any way realistic to expect every QB to make an accurate throw on every play nor is it reasonable to expect every receiver/TE/RB to catch every pass, especially errant ones.  It’s just not the real world.

 

What I find curious is that this particular throw is something that should be accurate 90+% of the time and the catch is maybe a 50/50 yet you are harshly judging Knox while given Allen a pass.  Is Allen a better player at his position than Knox overall?  If you say yes I completely agree, but on THAT Allen deserves the brunt of the blame.  Feeling the need  to pin it all on Knox is weird.  It’s cultish.