2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[transplantbillsfan]

16 hours ago, folz said:

 

 

Come on man. You are trying way too hard to prove your point. You can't cherry pick stats by not including touchdowns and rushing yards. No one judges QBs on passing yards and INTs only, ignoring all other stats. Did the people who vote for the MVP ignore Lamar Jackson's rushing yards and rushing TDs the year he won the MVP? It's not about what YOU think your QB should be...it's about how the voters view the total stats/impact of the players. There is no way Lamar wins that award if it was based on passing yards alone. He was 22nd in passing yards in 2019, his MVP season (with 3,127 passing yards---Josh has 3,778 passing yards with two games to go this season---for comparison). 

 

Plus, points win games, not yards. There are plenty of NFL games where the team with the most yards actually loses the game. And yes, I noted pretty clearly that Brock and CMC were still one game behind the rest of the players in my original post (I did use updated stats for Tua and Dak---they had played the same number of games as Josh). But, now that San Fran has played and week 16 is in the books, I have updated my list to be fully current (and included Lamar Jackson, Patrick Mahomes, and Jared Goff for further comparison---I only added Goff because he is one of the players with more passing yards than Josh, not because I think he is an MVP candidate).

 

 

Player     Total Yards (Pass/Rush/Rec)      Total TDs (Pass/Rush/Rec)   INTs (for QBs)

Pat                           4,325                                           26                               14

Tua                           4,267                                           26                               10

Josh                         4,191                                            40                               15

Brock                       4,190                                            31                                11

Lamar                      4,143                                            24                                7

Dak                          4,129                                            32                                7

Jared                       4,005                                           29                                10

 

 

CMC                        1,932                                            21

Tyreek                     1,656                                            12

Mostert                   1,187                                             21

 

vs. Mahomes: Would you trade 134 yards and one less interception across the season for the extra 14 TDs that Josh has?

vs. Tua: Are 14 touchdowns more for Josh not better than Tua's extra 76 yards and 5 less INTs?

None of the other QBs have more total yards than Josh. And no QB, including Mahomes and Tua has more TDs.

You told another poster to do the math, well, I ask you to do the same.

 

So, Josh has the third most total yards in the league and BY FAR the most TDs in the league. And after today, his # of INTs in comparison doesn't look quite as bad. Lamar obviously doesn't throw the ball as much as the other QBs, which accounts for his low INT number, and Dak seems to be an outlier (having a good season where INTs are concerned). The rest aren't that far from Josh's number of INTs to outweigh the number of TDs that Josh has. And we all know that there is also an element of luck when it comes to INTs.

 

Again, I'm not saying that Josh should be the MVP, but it is ridiculous for you to say that Josh isn't even worthy of being in the conversation.

 

Lamar's 2019 MVP season

4,333 total yards; 43 total TDs; 6 INTs

 

Josh needs 142 total yards and 3 TDs over the last two games to equal Lamar's MVP season. Yes. he has 9 more INTs than Lamar did that season, but if you take Josh's 2023 game averages (279.4 yards and 2.66 TDs) for the next two games, Josh would have 417 total yards and 2-3 TDs more than Lamar did in his MVP season...just sayin'.

 

 

 

 

 

You left out lost fumbles. He's only lost 3 this season. I really think we should be talking more about how Allen has cleaned up his fumbling problem. One of his credited lost fumbles was that weird end of game play against the Pats I think.

 

Meanwhile, Lamar has lost 6 and Tua, Mahomes and Hurts all have 5.

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, paulmm3 said:

Love Josh but he single handedly lost us too many winnable games earlier in the season to be worthy of MVP. Not his best year. 

 

What games?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

The case against Lamar for MVP:

 

Through 15 games Lamar has a 63.0 QBR and 24 Total TD's. He's on pace for 28 total TD's on the year in a 17 game season.

 

At least when Cam won with a 61 QBR in the 2015 season the Panthers were a ridiculous 15-1 and Cam had 45 total TD's in 16 games. 

 

The Total QBR of the last 10 MVP winners and their total TD's below. Bold type indicates they led the league in that category for that year. 

 

2013- Peyton Manning 79.0 (56 Total TD's)
2014- Aaron Rodgers 77.8 (40 Total TD's)
2015 - Cam Newton 61.4 (45 Total TD's)
2016 - Matt Ryan 79.6 (38 Total TD's)
2017 - Tom Brady 70.6 (32 Total TD's) 
2018 - Patrick Mahomes 80.3 (52 Total TD's)
2019 - Lamar Jackson 83.0 (43 Total TD's)
2020 - Aaron Rodgers 79.8 (51 Total TD's)
2021 - Aaron Rodgers 69.1 (40 Total TD's)
2022 - Patrick Mahomes 79.0 (45 Total TD's) 

 

Josh Allen's QBR and Total TD's last 4 seasons:

 

2020- 76.6 (46 Total TD's)

2021- 60.7 (42 Total TD's) 

2022- 73.4 (42 Total TD's in one less game)

2023- 71.6 (40 Total TD's and counting) Allen's QBR is second to Purdy's 71.7, yes only 0.1 behind Purdy.

 

The Ravens have been the top team in the AFC for a number of weeks now. But it's only now that Lamar has emerged as the MVP favorite. Why is that? Why wasn't he number 1 or even number 2 several weeks ago if he had the Ravens in the 1 seed position? The reason obviously is that his numbers are really bad by MVP standards. Prior to the last two games his QBR was 59 so he has "heated up" a little bit to a luke-warm 63. But more importantly, he hasn't absolutely wet the bed like Dak and Purdy have in consecutive weeks. He didn't suffer an ankle injury like Hill did forcing him to miss a game and possibly a 2,000 yard season. So it's not that Lamar himself is playing at a high level and "earning it". It's that everyone else around him is falling on their faces late in the season. But all those players; Dak, Purdy and Hill still have great stats on the season. And their teams are still in great playoff positioning. 

 

Then there is Allen who actually has a legit chance to end the season as both the QBR leader and total TD leader. The last five MVP's have led the league in both categories.  Not sure if there has ever been a QB to lead in both and not win the MVP.

 

Allen should absolutely win the MVP if the Bills win the division and given all of the above, not sure it should be a difficult decision at that point either. 

[DapperCam]

I think there are basically 3 scenarios:

 

1. Bills win the division and get the #2 seed. Allen will get MVP.
2. Dolphins win the last 2 games, and win the division and #1 seed. Tua will get MVP.
3. All other scenarios, Allen deserves it based on stats but is a wild card. CMC doesn't quite have the stats for a skill player. Purdy can't shake the system QB label. Lamar wins by default and is the weakest winner since that kicker won in the 80s.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

The case against Lamar for MVP:

 

Through 15 games Lamar has a 63.0 QBR and 24 Total TD's. He's on pace for 28 total TD's on the year in a 17 game season.

 

At least when Cam won with a 61 QBR in the 2015 season the Panthers were a ridiculous 15-1 and Cam had 45 total TD's in 16 games. 

 

The Total QBR of the last 10 MVP winners and their total TD's below. Bold type indicates they led the league in that category for that year. 

 

2013- Peyton Manning 79.0 (56 Total TD's)
2014- Aaron Rodgers 77.8 (40 Total TD's)
2015 - Cam Newton 61.4 (45 Total TD's)
2016 - Matt Ryan 79.6 (38 Total TD's)
2017 - Tom Brady 70.6 (32 Total TD's) 
2018 - Patrick Mahomes 80.3 (52 Total TD's)
2019 - Lamar Jackson 83.0 (43 Total TD's)
2020 - Aaron Rodgers 79.8 (51 Total TD's)
2021 - Aaron Rodgers 69.1 (40 Total TD's)
2022 - Patrick Mahomes 79.0 (45 Total TD's) 

 

Josh Allen's QBR and Total TD's last 4 seasons:

 

2020- 76.6 (46 Total TD's)

2021- 60.7 (42 Total TD's) 

2022- 73.4 (42 Total TD's in one less game)

2023- 71.6 (40 Total TD's and counting) Allen's QBR is second to Purdy's 71.7, yes only 0.1 behind Purdy.

 

The Ravens have been the top team in the AFC for a number of weeks now. But it's only now that Lamar has emerged as the MVP favorite. Why is that? Why wasn't he number 1 or even number 2 several weeks ago if he had the Ravens in the 1 seed position? The reason obviously is that his numbers are really bad by MVP standards. Prior to the last two games his QBR was 59 so he has "heated up" a little bit to a luke-warm 63. But more importantly, he hasn't absolutely wet the bed like Dak and Purdy have in consecutive weeks. He didn't suffer an ankle injury like Hill did forcing him to miss a game and possibly a 2,000 yard season. So it's not that Lamar himself is playing at a high level and "earning it". It's that everyone else around him is falling on their faces late in the season. But all those players; Dak, Purdy and Hill still have great stats on the season. And their teams are still in great playoff positioning. 

 

Then there is Allen who actually has a legit chance to end the season as both the QBR leader and total TD leader. The last five MVP's have led the league in both categories.  Not sure if there has ever been a QB to lead in both and not win the MVP.

 

Allen should absolutely win the MVP if the Bills win the division and given all of the above, not sure it should be a difficult decision at that point either. 

 

But I guess it makes sense to fight against logic????

[Ray Stonada]

From NFL.com:

 

"The Ravens’ sixth-year quarterback is playing the way he did when he won the 2019 MVP award. That season, Jackson passed for 3,127 yards, rushed for 1,206 yards and totaled 43 touchdowns. This year, he has 3,357 passing yards, 787 rushing yards and 24 touchdowns. On Monday night, he led Baltimore to points on seven straight drives while leading the team in passing and rushing. He’s not only the MVP of the top team in these power rankings, but he may have captured the league award Monday night."

 

SMH... in what world is mediocre passing yards, 2/3 the rushing yards and just over HALF the touchdowns the same season as 2019??

 

Sometimes media groupthink is truly confusing.

 

Allen's stats dwarf Lamar's.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

From NFL.com:

 

"The Ravens’ sixth-year quarterback is playing the way he did when he won the 2019 MVP award. That season, Jackson passed for 3,127 yards, rushed for 1,206 yards and totaled 43 touchdowns. This year, he has 3,357 passing yards, 787 rushing yards and 24 touchdowns. On Monday night, he led Baltimore to points on seven straight drives while leading the team in passing and rushing. He’s not only the MVP of the top team in these power rankings, but he may have captured the league award Monday night."

 

SMH... in what world is mediocre passing yards, 2/3 the rushing yards and just over HALF the touchdowns the same season as 2019??

 

Sometimes media groupthink is truly confusing.

 

Allen's stats dwarf Lamar's.

 

Not only all of this, but with 2 games still to go Lamar already has 1 more interception and 4 more lost fumbles than 2019.

 

Did you read that? 

 

Lamar Jackson has 24 TDs and 13 turnovers.

 

I call total bull#### he wins it this year unless he goes ballistic the next 2 weeks.

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, DapperCam said:

I think there are basically 3 scenarios:

 

1. Bills win the division and get the #2 seed. Allen will get MVP.
2. Dolphins win the last 2 games, and win the division and #1 seed. Tua will get MVP.
3. All other scenarios, Allen deserves it based on stats but is a wild card. CMC doesn't quite have the stats for a skill player. Purdy can't shake the system QB label. Lamar wins by default and is the weakest winner since that kicker won in the 80s.

 

Purdy is essentially Tua. 

[Ray Stonada]

JOSH: 3778 passing yards, 27 pass TD, 15 INT, 413 rushing yards, 13 TD

TUA: 4214 passing yards, 26 pass TD, 10 INT, 53 rushing yards, 0 TD

LAMAR: 3357 passing yards, 19 pass TD, 7 INT, 786 rushing yards, 5 TD rush

 

TOTAL TOUCHDOWNS:

JOSH 40, TUA 26, LAMAR 24

 

TURNOVERS:

JOSH 18, TUA 15, LAMAR 13

[Ray Stonada]

 

Here's what NFL.com says about Josh: "Sure, he leads the NFL in turnovers (18), but with plus-1,000 odds at BetMGM, Allen might be the most sensible bet in the field for league MVP. On Saturday, Allen became the first player in NFL history to post four straight seasons of 40-plus touchdowns. He had two rushing scores and one passing touchdown. If he leads Buffalo to the playoffs, no one wants to play this team."

 

But, the thing is he doesn't actually lead the NFL in turnovers. Lawrence and Howell both have 19. Even the NFL's own website is falling for the Josh turnover narrative. COME ON!

[dma0034]

It's tough. I think Tyreek Hill is the most important player to his Offense ( while CMC is great all the 49ers have had goos numbers... just hurt a lot). 

 

QB though is the most important player. Like how I think it should be judged is if you take the 15th best player at that position. How well do you think those teams do? Not exactly the best way of doing it but in Fantasy the 15th best QB is Derek Carr. WR is Pittman. RB is Barkley (or Pollard). Obviously the biggest impact would be Allen to Carr but Hill to Pittman is also a drop and I think Pittman is great. I just don't think the Bills win 7 games this year unless Allen or Mahomes is the QB. 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, dma0034 said:

It's tough. I think Tyreek Hill is the most important player to his Offense ( while CMC is great all the 49ers have had goos numbers... just hurt a lot). 

 

QB though is the most important player. Like how I think it should be judged is if you take the 15th best player at that position. How well do you think those teams do? Not exactly the best way of doing it but in Fantasy the 15th best QB is Derek Carr. WR is Pittman. RB is Barkley (or Pollard). Obviously the biggest impact would be Allen to Carr but Hill to Pittman is also a drop and I think Pittman is great. I just don't think the Bills win 7 games this year unless Allen or Mahomes is the QB. 

 

I think a drop from Hill to Pittman means multiple wins for the Dolphins. They are like a 7 maybe 8 win team in that scenario. It isn't just the plays Hill makes. It is what he does to everyone else on the field. In a year where there hasn't been a standout QB and where the league has been more weapon focussed there is no more impactful skill position player in the NFL than Hill. So he is my MVP vote. 

[Airseven]

Shouldn’t have to force QB as MVP. Perhaps a good year for another position to take it.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, dma0034 said:

It's tough. I think Tyreek Hill is the most important player to his Offense ( while CMC is great all the 49ers have had goos numbers... just hurt a lot). 

 

QB though is the most important player. Like how I think it should be judged is if you take the 15th best player at that position. How well do you think those teams do? Not exactly the best way of doing it but in Fantasy the 15th best QB is Derek Carr. WR is Pittman. RB is Barkley (or Pollard). Obviously the biggest impact would be Allen to Carr but Hill to Pittman is also a drop and I think Pittman is great. I just don't think the Bills win 7 games this year unless Allen or Mahomes is the QB. 

I like this point but I think we definitely win 7/8 with Care because that’s who he is. Hes the definition of average and we have a good supporting cast around Allen, even if the number 2 spot could be upgraded. 
 

but we aren’t SB contenders with him. 

[ToGoGo]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

What games?

Those kinds of biases based off the Jets game is why Allen has an uphill battle. 

[boyst]

no QB has been dominant enough that i would enjoy giving them an MVP. i had been on the fence all year for any QB... but right now i'd as soon go with Hill or Trent Williams as anyone else... but CMC maybe my pick.

[Punch]

As good of a season McCaffrey has had, he's going to fall well short of the benchmarks* typically achieved by RBs that have won MVP. Having said that, the league has evolved into an era of RB specialization yet he's mostly operating like the all-purpose bellcows of the past. 

 

He's definitely not the most "valuable" player on his own team (as evidenced by Purdy's implosion against Baltimore) but he may be having the best season relative to position. If the award truly were given to most spectacular player (its not), it should come down to McCaffrey, Tyreek Hill and Myles Garrett.

 

(*McCaffrey is tied in total TDs with Mostert at 21. RB MVPs in the recent past flirt with 30)

Edited December 27, 2023 by Punch

[Chandler#81]

Good case for Josh but I’d be shocked if he wins. Too much negative press from lazy sportscasters, imo.

 

[Nineforty]

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

[FireChans]

9 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

The case against Lamar for MVP:

 

Through 15 games Lamar has a 63.0 QBR and 24 Total TD's. He's on pace for 28 total TD's on the year in a 17 game season.

 

At least when Cam won with a 61 QBR in the 2015 season the Panthers were a ridiculous 15-1 and Cam had 45 total TD's in 16 games. 

 

The Total QBR of the last 10 MVP winners and their total TD's below. Bold type indicates they led the league in that category for that year. 

 

2013- Peyton Manning 79.0 (56 Total TD's)
2014- Aaron Rodgers 77.8 (40 Total TD's)
2015 - Cam Newton 61.4 (45 Total TD's)
2016 - Matt Ryan 79.6 (38 Total TD's)
2017 - Tom Brady 70.6 (32 Total TD's) 
2018 - Patrick Mahomes 80.3 (52 Total TD's)
2019 - Lamar Jackson 83.0 (43 Total TD's)
2020 - Aaron Rodgers 79.8 (51 Total TD's)
2021 - Aaron Rodgers 69.1 (40 Total TD's)
2022 - Patrick Mahomes 79.0 (45 Total TD's) 

 

Josh Allen's QBR and Total TD's last 4 seasons:

 

2020- 76.6 (46 Total TD's)

2021- 60.7 (42 Total TD's) 

2022- 73.4 (42 Total TD's in one less game)

2023- 71.6 (40 Total TD's and counting) Allen's QBR is second to Purdy's 71.7, yes only 0.1 behind Purdy.

 

The Ravens have been the top team in the AFC for a number of weeks now. But it's only now that Lamar has emerged as the MVP favorite. Why is that? Why wasn't he number 1 or even number 2 several weeks ago if he had the Ravens in the 1 seed position? The reason obviously is that his numbers are really bad by MVP standards. Prior to the last two games his QBR was 59 so he has "heated up" a little bit to a luke-warm 63. But more importantly, he hasn't absolutely wet the bed like Dak and Purdy have in consecutive weeks. He didn't suffer an ankle injury like Hill did forcing him to miss a game and possibly a 2,000 yard season. So it's not that Lamar himself is playing at a high level and "earning it". It's that everyone else around him is falling on their faces late in the season. But all those players; Dak, Purdy and Hill still have great stats on the season. And their teams are still in great playoff positioning. 

 

Then there is Allen who actually has a legit chance to end the season as both the QBR leader and total TD leader. The last five MVP's have led the league in both categories.  Not sure if there has ever been a QB to lead in both and not win the MVP.

 

Allen should absolutely win the MVP if the Bills win the division and given all of the above, not sure it should be a difficult decision at that point either. 

I’m pretty sure Lamar was in the top 3 a few weeks ago from oddsmakers.

 

It was Dak, Purdy, Lamar in different orders.

[DCOrange]

15 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

What's also funny is that nobody was pushing for LJ as MVP until lastnighta game.

 

Purdy implodes, and now LJ vaults into frontrunner for MVP? Again, he had a fine game, but this wasn't him delivering a signature performance to beat Purdy and the Niners...Purdy ***** the bed, and SF never got their offense going. Most of the credit here should go to the Ravens defense, with LJ complimenting it and taking advantage of the numerous times he was given great field position.

 

It's just strange that the guy that nobody was talking about because his numbers weren't there suddenly is the favorite because of this one game where the defense was clearly the catalyst and Jackson himself just played his part. 

 

I really don't understand how this game suddenly vaults him to the top. If you wanna say we should start taking him as a serious MVP candidate now, I'm OK with that.

 

Bottom line is that Josh should be right there with anyone, but needs to win out with at least 500 more pass yards and at least 5 more TD's to legitimately win

He was literally #2 in betting odds going into the week. Purdy was a heavy favorite, but going into the week, Vegas had it as Purdy, Lamar, Dak, Allen, and CMC in that order. He was #3 the week prior as well.

Edited December 27, 2023 by DCOrange

[mjt328]

15 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

What's also funny is that nobody was pushing for LJ as MVP until lastnighta game.

 

Purdy implodes, and now LJ vaults into frontrunner for MVP? Again, he had a fine game, but this wasn't him delivering a signature performance to beat Purdy and the Niners...Purdy ***** the bed, and SF never got their offense going. Most of the credit here should go to the Ravens defense, with LJ complimenting it and taking advantage of the numerous times he was given great field position.

 

It's just strange that the guy that nobody was talking about because his numbers weren't there suddenly is the favorite because of this one game where the defense was clearly the catalyst and Jackson himself just played his part. 

 

I really don't understand how this game suddenly vaults him to the top. If you wanna say we should start taking him as a serious MVP candidate now, I'm OK with that.

 

Bottom line is that Josh should be right there with anyone, but needs to win out with at least 500 more pass yards and at least 5 more TD's to legitimately win

 

The truth is, all of the top MVP candidates have flaws against them this season.  That's why the favorite keeps swinging after one good/bad game.  Just two weeks ago, the emerging favorite was Dak Prescott.  After the Bills ran over Dallas, it suddenly switched to Brock Purdy.  He throws four picks on Christmas, and now Lamar Jackson is the favorite.

 

Much of the MVP voting is about feelings and narrative.  Especially in a year where nobody is really standing out.  That's why it's really going to come down to the last 2 weeks of the season.

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season.  Not to mention his primetime performances have been mostly good/solid, but nothing outstanding to get people talking.  Meanwhile, the Bills are only now digging themselves out of the hole they have created in the Win/Loss standings. 

 

For Allen to win the MVP, he will really need to stand-out from the pack in Weeks 17-18.  Two huge statistical games (especially in the final primetime game against the Dolphins).  The Bills will need to win both, finish a top the AFC East and end up with the #2 seed.

 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I like this point but I think we definitely win 7/8 with Care because that’s who he is. Hes the definition of average and we have a good supporting cast around Allen, even if the number 2 spot could be upgraded. 
 

but we aren’t SB contenders with him. 

 

Carr's #1 WR (Olave) has more yards per game, more yards per target, and a higher PFF grades than Diggs this year. In the last 5 games Olave has 95.6 YPG to Diggs 40.4 YPG. Carr would likely see his production decrease in this offense and we would have maybe 5 wins on the season so far. My guess is we would finish 6-11 with him at QB.

 

Allen's supporting cast has been even worse than advertised, especially over the past month. Maybe 1 or 2 other QBs would have led us to a win over the Chargers. And that was one of Allen's lesser games on the season.

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

So Josh has put this team ahead in the final 2 minutes 4 times this year in games the Bills lost, if the D held up would you believe he’s a MVP if our record was 15 and 2 right now? 
 

In close games and ugly games wins are decided at the end. If the O puts you up and the D can’t make a stop a lot of blame gotta go to the D. If the D makes a stop and the O can’t get the points it’s on them. Despite the mistakes Josh has been pretty ***** clutch all season in these situations but they all get overlooked because the D couldn’t get the job done.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by BananaB

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The truth is, all of the top MVP candidates have flaws against them this season.  That's why the favorite keeps swinging after one good/bad game.  Just two weeks ago, the emerging favorite was Dak Prescott.  After the Bills ran over Dallas, it suddenly switched to Brock Purdy.  He throws four picks on Christmas, and now Lamar Jackson is the favorite.

 

Much of the MVP voting is about feelings and narrative.  Especially in a year where nobody is really standing out.  That's why it's really going to come down to the last 2 weeks of the season.

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season.  Not to mention his primetime performances have been mostly good/solid, but nothing outstanding to get people talking.  Meanwhile, the Bills are only now digging themselves out of the hole they have created in the Win/Loss standings. 

 

For Allen to win the MVP, he will really need to stand-out from the pack in Weeks 17-18.  Two huge statistical games (especially in the final primetime game against the Dolphins).  The Bills will need to win both, finish a top the AFC East and end up with the #2 seed.

 

It's definitely possible Lamar has the headlines right now from the 49ers game but he really wasn't all that great in it, maybe he keeps them facing the Dolphins we sure as hell want a Ravens win and he got this treatment even with just 2 TDs himself. But last week of the season it works out he's probably not doing anything while Josh could be playing in prime time for the AFC East and the #2 seed he might get the last say in the regular season.

[LarryMadman]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The present case against Josh Allen is pretty simple.  Turnovers and team record.  He started the season with that horrible 3 turnover game against the Jets, and has only reinforced the narrative by making at least one dumb pick in almost every game this season. 

 

I guess others shouldn't be considered either or maybe they just have smarter turnovers than Josh. Dumb argument as they all basically have the same amout of turnovers. I could understand if Josh had 35 turnovers and everyone else had 15, not the case though.

 

Tua 10 ints / 13 fumbles / 4 fumbles lost 

Brock 11 ints / 6 fumbles / 2 fumbles lost

Dak 7 ints / 3 fumbles / 2 fumbles lost

Josh 15 ints / 4 fumbles / 3 fumbles lost

Hurts 13 ints / 9 fumbles / 5 fumbles lost

Lamar 7 ints / 11 fumbles / 7 fumbles lost

 

This narrative that Josh turns the ball over too much compared to everyone else is bunk as is team record Tua, Hurts and Brock all have 11 wins, Lamar has 12, Dak has 10 and Josh has 9, they will all be in the playoffs. It's not like Josh only has 4 wins this year, I could understand that if it were true but its not. 

 

Josh is the best player in the league, does the most for his team, stats and percentages bear this out and his team would suffer the most without him, if that doesn't warrant the MVP, nothing does and the NFL and award are a joke. 

 

[Nineforty]

29 minutes ago, BananaB said:

So Josh has put this team ahead in the final 2 minutes 4 times this year in games the Bills lost, if the D held up would you believe he’s a MVP if our record was 15 and 2 right now? 
 

In close games and ugly games wins are decided at the end. If the O puts you up and the D can’t make a stop a lot of blame gotta go to the D. If the D makes a stop and the O can’t get the points it’s on them. Despite the mistakes Josh has been pretty ***** clutch all season in these situations but they all get overlooked because the D couldn’t get the job done.  

 

 

There's been too many games where I felt the defense actually did their part over the course of 4 quarters and the offense sputtered. I just don't think it's an MVP season by Josh. I still think he can win us a Super Bowl this year and yes, without him we would not be sniffing the playoffs. 

 

I also would wager Josh wins a couple of MVP's before its all said and done. Just not this year unless narrative season gets extra crazy. If you were to ask me who I'd promote, McCaffrey has my vote*  

 

 

*subject to change

[Warcodered]

 

 

[BananaB]

53 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

 

 

There's been too many games where I felt the defense actually did their part over the course of 4 quarters and the offense sputtered. I just don't think it's an MVP season by Josh. I still think he can win us a Super Bowl this year and yes, without him we would not be sniffing the playoffs. 

 

I also would wager Josh wins a couple of MVP's before its all said and done. Just not this year unless narrative season gets extra crazy. If you were to ask me who I'd promote, McCaffrey has my vote*  

 

 

*subject to change

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 
 

He is the only MVP candidate I know that’s OC got fired mid season. A few weeks ago everybody and their dog were calling for the coaches head. In all my years watching football I can’t remember a top player in his situation and still be in MVP race. 
 

Another thing I want to point out because I can’t stand the excuses for Lamar and why his stats are so ***** average. I read a lot people saying get him some WRs like every other top QB, they drafted 3 WRs in the first round since he’s been the starter ffs.

Edited December 27, 2023 by BananaB

[DuckyBoys]

if Purdy and CMC were in the discussion not sure how either can be  I'd say its between Tyreek and Allen 

[Nineforty]

11 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 

not disagreeing with those thoughts.  All I was trying to say was he shouldn't be an MVP favorite. 

[MikePJ76]

I'm so sick of hearing about the mvp race.

 

I don't even care at the moment and I bet Allen does not either.  Let Lamar win it, it means nothing when the playoffs start.

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, MikePJ76 said:

I'm so sick of hearing about the mvp race.

 

I don't even care at the moment and I bet Allen does not either.  Let Lamar win it, it means nothing when the playoffs start.

 

 

You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to listen to the sports media talking about it, this is a self inflicted problem.

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

Imagine Allen not on the field.  This is a 3 win team tops.

 

Allen = MVP

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

It's definitely possible Lamar has the headlines right now from the 49ers game but he really wasn't all that great in it, maybe he keeps them facing the Dolphins we sure as hell want a Ravens win and he got this treatment even with just 2 TDs himself. But last week of the season it works out he's probably not doing anything while Josh could be playing in prime time for the AFC East and the #2 seed he might get the last say in the regular season.

 

The Ravens are going to want to win that game for the 1 seed, but also because they lost to Miami the last two times.  They will want their revenge.  Especially after the lead they blew against Miami last year.

[MikePJ76]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

You don't have to read this thread, you don't have to listen to the sports media talking about it, this is a self inflicted problem.

100%.  

 

Unfortunately on Twitter I clicked on a few of the pro allen tweets and anti allen tweets and now I keep getting force fed a million of them.  

 

but yea you are 1 million percent right.  

 

I still hate the amount of time dedicated to this though, like who cares what someone named nick wright or marcus spears thinks etc.  

 

I would love lamar to win it and then play like he always does in the playoffs and lose, hopefully to Buffalo in the AFC Championship

[Warcodered]

47 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The Ravens are going to want to win that game for the 1 seed, but also because they lost to Miami the last two times.  They will want their revenge.  Especially after the lead they blew against Miami last year.

Well that doesn't inspire confidence.

[HappyDays]

Keeping in mind that literally every single one of his interceptable passes has been caught by the defender, he still has less value lost to negative plays than any other QB in the NFL. He also has the best EPA per play against top 12 defenses.

 

MVP for sure if the award actually meant what its name implies.

[UKBillFan]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

Doesn’t matter, when the game is on the line you’re expected to make a play and Josh has done that. The expectations of Josh playing perfect football for 60 minutes week to week every game is ridiculous. 
 

He is the only MVP candidate I know that’s OC got fired mid season. A few weeks ago everybody and their dog were calling for the coaches head. In all my years watching football I can’t remember a top player in his situation and still be in MVP race. 
 

Another thing I want to point out because I can’t stand the excuses for Lamar and why his stats are so ***** average. I read a lot people saying get him some WRs like every other top QB, they drafted 3 WRs in the first round since he’s been the starter ffs.

 

I'm not sure that is a positive when looking for the MVP.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, Nineforty said:

Maybe a silly thing to do, but when I remove all numbers from the equation (i know they are integral to the debate), take two giant steps back and think about the season to-date, I don't think Josh Allen has had an MVP season. 

 

To me it's a year in that someone like CMC or Tyreek Hill should win it. Their teams look very differently when they are not on the field. 

I shudder to even think about what this team will look like if Allen is NOT on the field.  Go Bills !!!