Well that was an absolute crap fest - PostGame thread

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

41-15 at home to the Colts in 2021?

 

Thank you.

 

and NOW, I remember everything from that game.

 

what a mess that one was.

 

 

[UKBillFan]

13 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I wish more would admit when he plays below the standard we’d like to see, but it’s always everyone else’s fault. Dorsey, the OL, his WRs, Britt, Hailey, etc. Josh still makes mistakes that leave you scratching your head. With that said, he’s also the best QB we’ve had maybe ever, but I feel like he could still take his game to another level. Physically he’s the most gifted QB in the league, but his awareness and knowledge of where to go with the ball just aren’t always there.
 

This morning I read on YouTube that Josh was the best QB in the league if only he could get some protection. Aside from glaring performances like the one Saffold had against the Bengals, I suspect you’d think we had a top pass blocking OL if Josh had the processing ability of a Tom Brady. He said he’s completely dialed in on football and even McD said he noticed a change coming into camp. We’ll see if that was just lip service shortly when the real bullets start flying.

 

 

I said that in the game thread and got criticism for it, but think you're right.

[jahnyc]

At least we have players that can start at OT.   Not sure if Dodson, Bernard or Klein are even quality back-ups at MLB.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

No, it’s not.

Yeah, it is.

[UKBillFan]

4 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

Thank you.

 

and NOW, I remember everything from that game.

 

what a mess that one was.

 

 

 

We've had at least one blowout a year under McDermott.

 

2017: 47-10 v the Saints/54-24 at the Chargers/23-3 v the Patriots

2018: 47-3 at the Ravens/22-0 at the Packers/37-5 at the Colts/26-5 v the Patriots/41-9 v the Bears

2019: 31-13 v the Eagles

2020: 42-16 at the Titans

2021: 41-15 v the Colts

2022: 27-10 v the Bengals (arguable whether this was a 'blowout' but it was a horrific performance)

[TheFunPolice]

Look on the bright side... Sal Capaccio will be working overtime tomorrow to make it sound like it was a great game, so driving to work will be entertaining. 

 

My takeaway is it's preseason. Nobody really cares about these games except the fringe players trying to win a roster spot. 

 

All these games are is 3 more chances for guys to get hurt. 

 

 

[Jerome007]

If, and that's an if, Barkley cuts down on the INTs, he could manage a game fairly well. The Bills are so talented it could work for a game or two. But for how stacked the Bills are, JA17 is still THE key to win it all, for sure.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Jerome007

[Mikie2times]

23 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I wish more would admit when he plays below the standard we’d like to see, but it’s always everyone else’s fault. Dorsey, the OL, his WRs, Britt, Hailey, etc. Josh still makes mistakes that leave you scratching your head. With that said, he’s also the best QB we’ve had maybe ever, but I feel like he could still take his game to another level. Physically he’s the most gifted QB in the league, but his awareness and knowledge of where to go with the ball just aren’t always there.
 

This morning I read on YouTube that Josh was the best QB in the league if only he could get some protection. Aside from glaring performances like the one Saffold had against the Bengals, I suspect you’d think we had a top pass blocking OL if Josh had the processing ability of a Tom Brady. He said he’s completely dialed in on football and even McD said he noticed a change coming into camp. We’ll see if that was just lip service shortly when the real bullets start flying.

I agree with all of this. Without Josh we are nowhere. So I think from that perspective you can't really find fault in anything he does. As you said, he is either the best we have ever had or in a debate for that title.

 

Having said this, the bar is elevated to a Super Bowl. So as I watch Josh, I watch Josh in the context of a Super Bowl winning QB. In doing so you have the obvious Favre like, what the hell just happened moments. But those don't concern me as much as top of drop, pat, pat, run. That's a QB not seeing as clear as you would like. Which then makes me wonder, did he ever see the field as clear as it appeared?

 

His arm is so good, he can see a guy open and still rip it in. Almost nobody can do that. He made such a massive amount of plays the last few years in scrambling. Which he doesn't get anymore. Teams are not sending uncontrolled rushes at him. Which allowed the red sea to part in front of him giving him the scramble whenever he couldn't make a read. They also aren't letting him get outside contain which again, is a path he took when he couldn't make a read. It gave him the whole field in front of him, clear visibility.

 

It is becoming pretty obvious teams are going to make Josh win from the pocket as a normal QB. That is the game plan. It was happening just the same last year. 

[1ManRaid]

10 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Starters against starters, 1s vs 1s, I call the Steelers 2 TDs superior execution. You know exactly what I’m referencing. The same plays you called “flukes.”

 

I'm starting to think you simply don't understand what a fluke is.  Anybody can stumble into "superior execution" for a play or two where they do everything right for once.  Getting it perfect once and then never again doesn't mean they deserve the full credit for doing it right the ONE time.

 

I used to play table tennis on a regular basis and there was this superior player I could never beat, not even close.  Then one day I just happened to put it together and took a single game from him and went right back to losing to him.  There was just a momentary lapse in his focus in a certain aspect of his play I accidentally took advantage of.  It was a fluke despite my temporary "superior execution".

[ColoradoBills]

14 hours ago, billieve420 said:

Barkley just played his way off the team. Kyle hasn’t been great either but he has the better arm and you hope he gets more comfortable as he learns the offense. However, if Allen misses extended time we are done regardless. Would look to develop younger QB on the practice squad versus keeping Barkley around.

 

Agree with everything, especially the bolded.  It's time to bring in a younger guy. 

 

14 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

It's just preseason but I was pretty disappointed that these guys were unprepared.  I don't care about losing.  I don't even care about getting blown out.  It's the mental mistakes and penalties.  Especially from vets.  This should not happen from a team of this caliber and I blame this on coaching.  There are terrible teams that look better than this.

 

The biggest disappointment in the game was the penalties and mental mistakes.  McDermott is the HC and ultimately the buck stops there.

However, as you stated, "especially from vets' brings up the question.  Who really is to blame?  Do these NFL players not know the rules?

Do they have to be reminded not to grab jerseys and not move before the ball is snapped?  How much of this lack of preparation is on McDermott,

and how much is on the position coaches?  

 

The player leadership should first look to themselves and then stress to the rest of the team about some personal responsibility.

If the leadership sees some issues with any of the staff, they also need to bring it to the surface.

 

My second biggest disappointment was the Special Teams.  Once again, McDermott is ultimately responsible but Matt Smiley needs to

get these guys playing together.

 

It's only a preseason game and knowing this is a mature veteran team I won't overreact.  The vets had one chance to knock of the rust and

failed in that attempt.  McDermott (and the entire staff) need to get their $%!) together and insist the players follow suit before the Jets game.

 

I would expect a much more somber week of training and more attention being paid to details and less music and dancing.  That should come

from both McDermott AND the captains.

[MWK]

22 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

At least we have players that can start at OT.   Not sure if Dodson, Bernard or Klein are even quality back-ups at MLB.

 

I don’t think Brown is exactly backup quality either.

[Brand J]

22 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

I'm starting to think you simply don't understand what a fluke is.  Anybody can stumble into "superior execution" for a play or two where they do everything right for once.  Getting it perfect once and then never again doesn't mean they deserve the full credit for doing it right the ONE time.

 

I used to play table tennis on a regular basis and there was this superior player I could never beat, not even close.  Then one day I just happened to put it together and took a single game from him and went right back to losing to him.  There was just a momentary lapse in his focus in a certain aspect of his play I accidentally took advantage of.  It was a fluke despite my temporary "superior execution".

I’m starting to think you don’t understand how sports work. The Steelers starters whipped our starters. Period. Whatever the reason for that, that was the case. Get over it and stop trying to explain it away, McD and the players certainly aren’t.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Losing Shell to retirement and Doyle to injury is just plain bad luck. 

 

Bad luck is what happens when unpreparedness meets adversity.

 

Relying on an old linemen that was fighting for the 3rd string RT position, and Tommy Doyle, who was awful in the little he has played so far, is unpreparedness.

[Nitro]

Sloppy play.  Penalties.   INTs.  This gives the coaches things to work on.  Barkley is not a good back nor is Kyle Allen.  The amateur GMs will come out and say they should have or could have etc.  I trust Beane and his staff.   This team will do well this year.

[DallasBillsFan1]

Why does it seem like the Steelers play at a different speed/intensity?  From what I saw, their D got after Josh ... we didn't seem to get after Pickett as well.

[Jauronimo]

They looked emotionally exhausted again

[Green Lightning]

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

GL this was 27-0.

 

 

Well there's that. Point was it could have been even worse. Yesterday's performance was too similar to me.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Any criticism of Josh, even if it's just to say he contributes to an issue, can't be right to those on this forum. It can never be even partly on Josh. Josh is incapable of doing anything wrong. It has to be the WR's not being able to get open. The line not being able to block. The coach not being able to draw up plays. It can't just be Josh hitting the top of his drop, double, triple clutching. Having no idea where to go with the ball. Then taking off. Something we see literally non stop with him mixed in with the rest of the crap play out of our various units.  

Oh please, did you watch the game?  Allen was far from the problem. In fact he threw the ball well and had the Bills moving nicely on the 2nd drive.  Half his pass completions, including the 35 yarder to Davis that got called back, were vintage wow Allen throws.  The only goofy thing Allen did was when he started to run then realized that McD/Dorsey told him not to run. 

 

 

[par73]

I know it is "just preseason," but that game reminded me too much of the Cincinnati game. Hope that's not the trend.

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Oh please, did you watch the game?  Allen was far from the problem. In fact he threw the ball well and had the Bills moving nicely on the 2nd drive.  Half his pass completions, including the 35 yarder to Davis that got called back, were vintage wow Allen throws.  The only goofy thing Allen did was when he started to run then realized that McD/Dorsey told him not to run. 

 

 

Yup.....watched the whole game

 

How many throws did he make on time at the top of his drop?

 

The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it. I don't need proof if he sees a guy open, that he can deliver it. I need proof that he doesn't see a guy, he see's a coverage, he can get the ball out on time and in rhythm.  

[jahnyc]

Did Spector play?  Does not seem that he is in the mix for MLB.  Will he even make the team this year?

[Augie]

37 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Bad luck is what happens when unpreparedness meets adversity.

 

Relying on an old linemen that was fighting for the 3rd string RT position, and Tommy Doyle, who was awful in the little he has played so far, is unpreparedness.

 

Cute, did your grandmother teach you that? Mine used to say stuff like that.

 

It was DEPTH. Nobody has All-Pros at every position and OL talent across the entire league is generally lacking. Should that have seen Shell was on the edge of retirement? IDK, because I was not behind the scenes. Regardless, they will continue to make moves. People who think quality talent is just littered all around and we refuse to address it generally started with a bias. They can’t wait to say “LOOK! I told you so! They are incompetent!” 

 

The fact is, we are one of the best teams in the league. We need help at OT and MLB in particular, but fixing that not as easy as it sounds. 

 

 

[Einstein]

17 minutes ago, Augie said:

Nobody has All-Pros at every position

 

Understandable. But we are not talking about All-Pro quality talent. We don’t even have starting level talent at several of the o-line positions.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Understandable. But we are not talking about All-Pro quality talent. We don’t even have starting level talent at several of the o-line positions.

 

Ask the fans of ANY team in the NFL and they will tell you where they are thin. Every team has holes. That’s just how it works. Now, how do we find a way to overcome it with player acquisition and scheme to get wins? That is the question. Last year Knox did more blocking than would have been ideal, but we went 13-3. You have to find ways.  

[UKBillFan]

12 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Ask the fans of ANY team in the NFL and they will tell you where they are thin. Every team has holes. That’s just how it works. Now, how do we find a way to overcome it with player acquisition and scheme to get wins? That is the question. Last year Knox did more blocking than would have been ideal, but we went 13-3. You have to find ways.  

 

At this rate, Knox will be joining the OL whilst Kincaid acts as TE.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

At this rate, Knox will be joining the OL whilst Kincaid acts as TE.

I don't think Dawson had aspirations of being a RT when he was drafted.

[UKBillFan]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

I don't think Dawson had aspirations of being a RT when he was drafted.

 

Beggars can't be choosers. Though, in this case, it isn't Dawson begging.

[CountDorkula]

Call a spade a spade. They sucked last night. 
 

“but its preseason”.  guess what. It’s also preseason for the other team too. 
 

the plan we can all agree wasn’t for the Bills to appear completely outmatched for an entire half. 
 

shake it off. Clean up the mental stuff and pray that one of the MLBs and OTs figure it out in time for the season opener. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

 

At this rate, Knox will be joining the OL whilst Kincaid acts as TE.

 

I think Know probably has dual citizenship. Knows both secret handshakes and everything. 

[GoBills808]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

Yup.....watched the whole game

 

How many throws did he make on time at the top of his drop?

 

The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it. I don't need proof if he sees a guy open, that he can deliver it. I need proof that he doesn't see a guy, he see's a coverage, he can get the ball out on time and in rhythm.  

been watching the Bills for long lol

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

How many throws did he make on time at the top of his drop?

 

The 35 yard throw to Gabe, he was on his 2nd or third clutch. Saw it and ripped it. I don't need proof if he sees a guy open, that he can deliver it. I need proof that he doesn't see a guy, he see's a coverage, he can get the ball out on time and in rhythm.  

At least 4 throws. 

 

Obviously Dorsey isn't going to showcase the quick hitting throws that are likely to make up a big part of the offenses passing game against the Jets in week one.  That you don't understand this is eye opening.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

At least 4 throws. 

 

Obviously Dorsey isn't going to showcase the quick hitting throws that are likely to make up a big part of the offenses passing game against the Jets in week one.  That you don't understand this is eye opening.

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

been watching the Bills for long lol

 @CincyBillsFan I mean, given we went a whole year in 2022 hearing why we won't attempt short throws, it's eye opening that you just expect this will change in 2023. Will it be Dorsey that we will blame? Josh's elbow? What will be the reason we can't hit a quick slant this year?

 

@GoBills808 Late in 2021, I presume largely based on a offensive coordinator that designed it to be that way, I saw Josh decimating teams with his reads. The ball was out and out quick. Didn't happen last year. It also just so happens last year was the first year teams stopped allowing Josh the sidelines to do whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed, they stopped rushing him. Now he has an OC who I presume isn't taking such an emphasis on routes and motion that shows coverages.  Josh isn't getting the ball out at the top of his drop. He's double clutching. The off spring of Ray Charles could see it...it's nearly every pass. 

 

But again, how dare I as part of Bills fandom, blame Josh for even contributing to a minor issue. He is incapable of fault. All we can admit out loud is that sometimes he makes the "silly" mistake and even when that happens, it's really just because he's passionate. It's also not a "bad" mistake. It's "silly". Like a child, because Josh has a youthful exuberance.

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

13 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

 @CincyBillsFan I mean, given we went a whole year in 2022 hearing why we won't attempt short throws, it's eye opening that you just expect this will change in 2023. Will it be Dorsey that we will blame? Josh's elbow? What will be the reason we can't hit a quick slant this year?

 

@GoBills808 Late in 2021, I presume largely based on a offensive coordinator that designed it to be that way, I saw Josh decimating teams with his reads. The ball was out and out quick. Didn't happen last year. It also just so happens last year was the first year teams stopped allowing Josh the sidelines to do whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed, they stopped rushing him. Now he has an OC who I presume isn't taking such an emphasis on routes and motion that shows coverages.  Josh isn't getting the ball out at the top of his drop. He's double clutching. The off spring of Ray Charles could see it...it's nearly every pass. 

 

But again, how dare I as part of Bills fandom, blame Josh for even contributing to a minor issue. He is incapable of fault. All we can admit out loud is that sometimes he makes the "silly" mistake and even when that happens, it's really just because he's passionate. It's also not a "bad" mistake. It's "silly". Like a child, because Josh has a youthful exuberance.

 

 

 

 

Hey it's a free country so go ahead and blame Allen for us losing last nights critically important preseason game.

 

And did you watch the games in 2022?  We threw plenty of short timing passes, particularly in the first half of the season.  My take is that defenses adjusted and we found ourselves lacking the quality play makers at RB & WR (outside of Diggs) to make it work in the face of the adjustments.  For crying out loud we signed Smoke & Beasley OFF THE FREAKING STREET to try to juice the receiving group.

 

So yea with the additions they made in the off season to boost the number & quality of play makers I expect Dorsey & Allen to execute more of the rhythm short passing game with a couple of deadly deep shots thrown in to keep defenses honest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Unforgiven]

6 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

Regardless of the final score this game was a blowout.

 

Which got me to thinking…since when?

 

We lost games and have had not such great games, but a blowout?

 

I honestly can’t even remember.  Does it predate even McDermott?

 

Has it been more than 100 regular, pre and post season games since we’ve been spanked?

 

 

 

cinncinati spanked them

[Steptide]

While everything seems to be doom and gloom after last night, a couple bright spots - kinkaid is gonna be awesome. This guy is gonna win us games. Gabe looked awesome. If he can be what we expected last year, he's gonna be an absolute stud this year. Shorter may be a nice red zone threat if he makes the team 

[dollars 2 donuts]

21 minutes ago, Unforgiven said:

cinncinati spanked them

 

They didn’t blow them out, though.

 

This was about blowouts not bad losses.

 

a number of examples have been given subsequently.  Most recently the Indy home game. That game was a joke.

 

[GoBills808]

41 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

 @CincyBillsFan I mean, given we went a whole year in 2022 hearing why we won't attempt short throws, it's eye opening that you just expect this will change in 2023. Will it be Dorsey that we will blame? Josh's elbow? What will be the reason we can't hit a quick slant this year?

 

@GoBills808 Late in 2021, I presume largely based on a offensive coordinator that designed it to be that way, I saw Josh decimating teams with his reads. The ball was out and out quick. Didn't happen last year. It also just so happens last year was the first year teams stopped allowing Josh the sidelines to do whatever he wanted. Then as the season progressed, they stopped rushing him. Now he has an OC who I presume isn't taking such an emphasis on routes and motion that shows coverages.  Josh isn't getting the ball out at the top of his drop. He's double clutching. The off spring of Ray Charles could see it...it's nearly every pass. 

 

But again, how dare I as part of Bills fandom, blame Josh for even contributing to a minor issue. He is incapable of fault. All we can admit out loud is that sometimes he makes the "silly" mistake and even when that happens, it's really just because he's passionate. It's also not a "bad" mistake. It's "silly". Like a child, because Josh has a youthful exuberance.

 

 

 

 

just misplaced blame imo

 

'missing reads' and 'OC route concepts' really misses the very simple personnel issue that in 2021 we had Emmanuel Sanders and a not yet over the hill Beasley, both of whom are capable second options to Diggs in that defenses must respect the majority of the route tree against them...2022 thrust a miscast Davis into that role

 

that the 2022 offense actually outperformed the 2021 despite lesser personnel is actually a credit to Allen and Dorsey, 'double clutching' notwithstanding

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

The amount of over reaction to a preseason game is comical.  Of course it’s being led by the usual suspects who break out in a sweat of excitement anytime they see something they can be negative about.  
 

This board is in mid season form already of usual doom and gloom

[Mikie2times]

28 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Hey it's a free country so go ahead and blame Allen for us losing last nights critically important preseason game.

 

And did you watch the games in 2022?  We threw plenty of short timing passes, particularly in the first half of the season.  My take is that defenses adjusted and we found ourselves lacking the quality play makers at RB & WR (outside of Diggs) to make it work in the face of the adjustments.  For crying out loud we signed Smoke & Beasley OFF THE FREAKING STREET to try to juice the receiving group.

 

So yea with the additions they made in the off season to boost the number & quality of play makers I expect Dorsey & Allen to execute more of the rhythm short passing game with a couple of deadly deep shots thrown in to keep defenses honest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the problem with most Bills fans and Josh. I'm not blaming Allen. His inability to get plays off on time contributes to areas we already suck in, like pass protection. The problem is multi faceted. It's just everybody on here gives Allen a break on his contributions.  

 

Look at minute 1:41 below. Classic example of what I'm describing. J

 

Josh hits the top of his drop. He has the out route. He is looking at the out route. He pauses. Dawkins is already beat horribly, but again, if he just takes the damn out it doesn't matter. Instead he super man's his way to a completion. Bills fans celebrate his greatness. Problem is he had the out the whole time. A great play would be not having to make a great play. If he has to keep making great plays in that spot he will make great mistakes. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrJiPBXQf10&t=103s

 

As for your theory. Who knows. I have watched every play for over 20 years. Plenty of elite QB's lose talent and keep on being elite. So I'm not inclined to put the emphasis on JUST the WR's or OLINE, as so many here do. Josh is 50% of the issue. Most people can't see it because he creates 90% of the solutions. It is just a dumb preseason game, but what happened in the play above is just an extension of last years Josh.   

[Jerome007]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

Josh hits the top of his drop. He has the out route. He is looking at the out route. He pauses. Dawkins is already beat horribly, but again, if he just takes the damn out it doesn't matter. Instead he super man's his way to a completion.

 

Yes, on THAT play, it is accurate. The out was there all along, and it was Diggs too. But while at it, prove Josh does that all the time.

 

It's always the team's own fans that sees all these mistakes, thinking the players should be perfect, and comparing to other teams' HIGHLIGHTS. As far as I know, even Brady, Brees, Peyton, in their best years, had some INTs, and didn't have over 75% complete rates!