Does a running QB make the run game from the backs less effective?

[Beck Water]

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted

So in the Cowherd interview of Dion Dawkins, Cowherd goes on at length with his opinion that a running QB makes the conventional run game less effective.  He cites Tennessee with Henry and the 49ers with McCaffrey.  Yes, those teams have effective running games because they have great backs, great run-blocking OLs,and a QB who throws "enough". 

But while Lamar Jackson had the most yards on the Ravens, Dobbins, Drake and Edwards had 1435 yds - pretty effective.  Jalen Hurts is a running QB, but Miles Sanders rushed for 1269 yds, pretty effective.

 

I believe someone posted a stat that the Bills are lowest in rush attempts by an RB.  I think the problem is they just don't try to run the ball enough, or effectively enough when they do try.  But it has nothing to do with Josh extending the play and trying to make shinola from ***** on a pass play by scrambling. 

I don't see the logic there.

 

What are your thoughts?  Does a running QB and improvisation make the conventional run game less effective? 

What Cowherd has to say:
https://youtu.be/djGAQi46d68?t=1014

16:50 in if the above doesn't take you there

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[mushypeaches]

Let me know when Cowherd bases any of his steaming hot takes on actual analysis or personal watching of football games

 

I'll hang up and listen

[Starr Almighty]

Ask the Ravens 🤷🏻‍♂️

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted

So in the Cowherd interview of Dion Dawkins, Cowherd goes on at length with his opinion that a running QB makes the conventional run game less effective.  He cites Tennessee with Henry and the 49ers with McCaffrey.

 

What are your thoughts?  Does a running QB and improvisation make the conventional run game less effective?  I don't see the logic there.

 

 

 

 

I disagree with Cowherd on this one.  I feel like he was being kind at times during the interview, this being one of the topics.  Ie: he isn't going to have one of our top linemen on the show, then diss the run game.

 

Look no further than the Giants:

1. Comparable offensive philosophies/coaching.  Running QB, albeit Jones is a poor man's Allen

 

2. Biggest differences: Giants have an elite RB and better OL for the run game.

 

It's pretty simple, elite RB/solid OL OR solid RB/elite OL can produce a consistent run game.  I'd put KC in the 2nd bucket, teams like SF and Philly have close to both, Tennessee the 1st option.

 

Dion clearly stated the trenches is where these tough matchups are decided.  McGovern/Torrence/Edwards hopefully propel us into above average/notch below elite.  

 

I think we have the best "group" (OL and Rbs) this season, out of the past few.  Everyone has an opinion if it's enough.  Personally, I could see us being more consistent, and enough to fix our redzone issues from LY.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

I haven't looked at the numbers, but this strikes me as the dumbest of dumb Cowherd takes.

A running (not scrambling and buying time; I'm talking about actual designed run plays and QB options) QB changes the basic advantage of the defense where you have 11 defenders trying to stop 10 offensive players in the run game. Think about how well we ran the ball with Tyrod at QB. Guys like Karlos Williams and Mike Gillislie were suddenly unstoppable, both getting almost 6 yards per carry in 2015.

The confusion might be that some running QBs are exactly that: runners who play QB, which results in a one-dimensional offense, which allows defenses to stack the box to stop the run. Think Tebow.

But with any running QB who can also throw, the answer is obvious: a running QB makes the run game more effective. Why on earth would it make it less effective?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

This has to be one of Cowherd's dumbest least informed takes ever.

Did Tyrod make Shady less effective?

Did Wilson make Beast mode less effective?

Montana and Young were both running QBs at times during their careers and the 49ers also had good rushing attacks.

 

Historically you could make an opposite argument. Shula could be never get a run game going with Marino. Same thing with Fouts in San Diego. 

 

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

A very quick statistical example of the type that Cowherd doesn't bother to do:

- 49ers, last full year with Montana starting at QB: 3.8 yards per carry

- 49ers, first full year with Young starting at QB: 4.8 yards per carry

 

OK, so Steve Young himself averaged 7 yards per carry (500+ yards) in that season. So let's take his numbers out of the mix.

- 49ers, first fill year with Young starting at QB, eliminating Young's stats: 4.4 yards per carry.

 

Quick back-of-the-envelope guess: a running QB improves your RB production by about half a yard per carry.

 

(I chose the old Niners because there was a great deal of continuity on offense there, other than at QB. Choose your own example, Cowherd. Or maybe stop trying to get an audience by being "controversial," by which I mean "stupid.")

[loyal2dagame]

I'd think it has to help the run game as the qb would most likely have a spy on him which in theory should take an opposing player out of position and could assist in opening a hole. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by loyal2dagame

[eSJayDee]

I think it depends on how you define "effective".  If you're referring to total yards by RBs, then yes, to some extent, a QB who runs takes yards away from them.  Also, passing also makes them less effective by this definition (when you're doing something else, a RB isn't accumulating yards).  I'll concede there is a limit to this effect, ie if you NEVER pass, the RBs will likely be less productive than if you pass occasionally as the defense will adjust accordingly.

If you define effective as production relative to opportunity (largely akin to yds/carry, though I would contend there are some differences, then no, I don't think a running QB lessens the effectiveness of the RBs run game.  In fact, I would think that it would benefit it to some extent cuz it's just another thing the defense has to be wary of.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Buffalo hasn't built a roster capable of running the ball when the defense expects it. They have gone for more "athletic" OL in the past and not the types of people that blow people off the ball. 

 

Even with that as a fact, Buffalo has maintained pretty decent YPC from RBs year in and year out. The issue isn't the ability the issue is the willingness. Why hand the ball directly off to a RB when you can keep it in Allen's hands? I think with the addition of Torrence and the focus on guys that can run between the tackles (Harris and Murray) along with a renewed focus on having Allen rush less on designed plays the narrative that the Bills can't run will die out a bit.

[Chicken Boo]

All the way back to Vick with "DVD" (Dunn, Vick, Duckett), running QBs aid the run game. 

 

With proper play calling and design, it should make running the ball easier.  

[billsbackto81]

The O line's ability to open lanes is what determines the effectiveness of a RB or any other runner for that matter. Sure a better than average back will make a mediocre line look better but ultimately it's up to the O line to clear the way and neutralize defenders.

 

A QBs running proficiency has nothing to do with run schemes designed for your backfield unless the play of course is a designed run for the QB.

Edited July 14, 2023 by billsbackto81

[hondo in seattle]

5 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I haven't looked at the numbers, but this strikes me as the dumbest of dumb Cowherd takes.

A running (not scrambling and buying time; I'm talking about actual designed run plays and QB options) QB changes the basic advantage of the defense where you have 11 defenders trying to stop 10 offensive players in the run game. Think about how well we ran the ball with Tyrod at QB. Guys like Karlos Williams and Mike Gillislie were suddenly unstoppable, both getting almost 6 yards per carry in 2015.

The confusion might be that some running QBs are exactly that: runners who play QB, which results in a one-dimensional offense, which allows defenses to stack the box to stop the run. Think Tebow.

But with any running QB who can also throw, the answer is obvious: a running QB makes the run game more effective. Why on earth would it make it less effective?

 

Agreed.  Motor's fans point out his comparatively high YPC despite playing behind a poor run-blocking line.  Part of Motor's per-carry success was that he was the last weapon defensed.  Defenses played pass first, run second.  And our most feared runner has been Josh Allen.  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted

So in the Cowherd interview of Dion Dawkins, Cowherd goes on at length with his opinion that a running QB makes the conventional run game less effective.  He cites Tennessee with Henry and the 49ers with McCaffrey.  Yes, those teams have effective running games because they have great backs, great run-blocking OLs,and a QB who throws "enough". 

But while Lamar Jackson had the most yards on the Ravens, Dobbins, Drake and Edwards had 1435 yds - pretty effective.  Jalen Hurts is a running QB, but Miles Sanders rushed for 1269 yds, pretty effective.

 

I believe someone posted a stat that the Bills are lowest in rush attempts by an RB.  I think the problem is they just don't try to run the ball enough, or effectively enough when they do try.  But it has nothing to do with Josh extending the play and trying to make shinola from ***** on a pass play by scrambling. 

I don't see the logic there.

 

What are your thoughts?  Does a running QB and improvisation make the conventional run game less effective? 

What Cowherd has to say:
https://youtu.be/djGAQi46d68?t=1014

16:50 in if the above doesn't take you there

 

 

 

I think that’s a loaded question… The bills are in a different spot than 99% of teams in the NFL

 

Most running quarterbacks like Lamar Jackson…. Can’t throw the football like Josh Allen…. So they run run run … play action pass

 

Josh Allen has an elite arm and elite legs …. He’s going to get chunks in the air with his arm

 

And he equally can burn you by taking off from the pocket…

 

So the offense is Josh centric…. We also haven’t had the big boys upfront to create for running backs 

 

I think with this stable of running backs and a beefed up line… Josh won’t have to carry 120 times … cut it to 75-80… while giving it to the backs more 

 

Our running backs weren’t super effective because we don’t run block great and josh is a gifted creator 

 

But Absolutely doesn’t hurt the bills… Because if we can establish a good ground  game this year… It’s only going to help Josh Allen when he pulls it out

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

No, I think he was just aware that saying your oline sucks to Dawkins would have made for an uncomfortable interview lol

[Beck Water]

36 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No, I think he was just aware that saying your oline sucks to Dawkins would have made for an uncomfortable interview lol

 

Valid

[maddenboy]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

But Absolutely doesn’t hurt the bills… Because if we can establish a good ground  game this year… It’s only going to help Josh Allen when he pulls it out

there has GOT to be a baby-mama joke here, somewhere.

[Buffalo716]

22 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

there has GOT to be a baby-mama joke here, somewhere.

Intelligent 😝

[John from Riverside]

I don’t think so. I think that running the ball is all about commitment and schemes.

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I don’t think so. I think that running the ball is all about commitment and schemes.

 

Well, that, but the Jimmies and the Joes have to suffice to execute those x's and o's

[Buffalo716]

36 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, that, but the Jimmies and the Joes have to suffice to execute those x's and o's

You need the hogs to do that… and I think we are getting there

 

its a tough situation but the bills can have a deadly attack if the line can push the line of scrimmage… It will only make Joshs running and passing ability more deadly

[HoofHearted]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:04 AM, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted

So in the Cowherd interview of Dion Dawkins, Cowherd goes on at length with his opinion that a running QB makes the conventional run game less effective.  He cites Tennessee with Henry and the 49ers with McCaffrey.  Yes, those teams have effective running games because they have great backs, great run-blocking OLs,and a QB who throws "enough". 

But while Lamar Jackson had the most yards on the Ravens, Dobbins, Drake and Edwards had 1435 yds - pretty effective.  Jalen Hurts is a running QB, but Miles Sanders rushed for 1269 yds, pretty effective.

 

I believe someone posted a stat that the Bills are lowest in rush attempts by an RB.  I think the problem is they just don't try to run the ball enough, or effectively enough when they do try.  But it has nothing to do with Josh extending the play and trying to make shinola from ***** on a pass play by scrambling. 

I don't see the logic there.

 

What are your thoughts?  Does a running QB and improvisation make the conventional run game less effective? 

What Cowherd has to say:
https://youtu.be/djGAQi46d68?t=1014

16:50 in if the above doesn't take you there

 

 

 

His conclusion is correct, but his reasoning for getting there is nonsensical. Teams with QBs who can run generally don’t have their RBs getting 28 carries a game because they don’t have to. You’re at a numerical advantage on the field when your QB is a threat with his legs. A defense either has to commit an extra defender to the box or just live with the fact that one of their defenders will be slow to fit because they are being read. The off script stuff has nothing to do with the run game whatsoever.

QB run game can almost guarantee you a 1 on 1 with your QB on a lesser athlete so why wouldn’t teams take that matchup more often than not? Only reason not to do it 100% of the time is because a defense will eventually adjust and start sending double edge pressure where they’d get a 2v1 on your QB, but then of course it’s pulling a defender either out of the box or coverage. And the other reason is to not get the crap beat out of your QB every play.

 

The idea that QB run game lessens the effect of true RB run game is just moronic. If anything it should improve it because of how defenses have to play the QB run threat. Bills haven’t had a run game because they’re soft at the LoS, not because Josh runs.

[BillsShredder83]

The only thing that comes to mind as being valid here to me, is the amount of shotgun we run. 

 

I think Josh being back there helps him see a lot more whether he's running or passing, but it doesn't do our run game any favors, making our RBs take their carries out of a draw type of carry.

 

I don't know this is what cowherd is talking about though

[Big Turk]

James Cook would have led all RBs in YPC if he had enough carries to qualify last year. Needed 11 more at the same 5.7 average he had to qualify. So I'd say no.

 

Singletary averaged 5.1, 4.4, 4.6, and 4.6 in his 4 years, so again...no. At times there was some frustration with how they called the runs and what formations they ran out of but overall it was effective when they wanted to run it.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Big Turk

[Eastport bills]

A running QB who has designed runs like Cam, Lamar or Kyler, will invariably get hurt and leave a void in the team’s offense. The fact that a QB runs shouldn’t affect the production of the rbs if the O-line is competent.

[Beck Water]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:03 PM, HoofHearted said:

His conclusion is correct, but his reasoning for getting there is nonsensical. Teams with QBs who can run generally don’t have their RBs getting 28 carries a game because they don’t have to. You’re at a numerical advantage on the field when your QB is a threat with his legs. A defense either has to commit an extra defender to the box or just live with the fact that one of their defenders will be slow to fit because they are being read. The off script stuff has nothing to do with the run game whatsoever.

QB run game can almost guarantee you a 1 on 1 with your QB on a lesser athlete so why wouldn’t teams take that matchup more often than not? Only reason not to do it 100% of the time is because a defense will eventually adjust and start sending double edge pressure where they’d get a 2v1 on your QB, but then of course it’s pulling a defender either out of the box or coverage. And the other reason is to not get the crap beat out of your QB every play.

 

The idea that QB run game lessens the effect of true RB run game is just moronic. If anything it should improve it because of how defenses have to play the QB run threat. Bills haven’t had a run game because they’re soft at the LoS, not because Josh runs.

 

That's about it, I think.

 

That, plus I felt that even by his 3rd and 4th year here, Daboll really hadn't managed to integrate the run game and the pass game very effectively.  I'm not football astute enough to have the descriptors for what I saw, but that was my sense.  I actually felt we were a bit more situationally appropriate in run play calling last year, but the line was worse at run blocking so it didn't get us anything.

 

Maybe I'm off base.  I always kind of felt Daboll called run plays because McDermott pinned him on the meeting room floor and hissed in his ear "you will call run plays or I will finish you".

 

On 7/15/2023 at 12:29 PM, BillsShredder83 said:

The only thing that comes to mind as being valid here to me, is the amount of shotgun we run. 

 

I think Josh being back there helps him see a lot more whether he's running or passing, but it doesn't do our run game any favors, making our RBs take their carries out of a draw type of carry.

 

I don't know this is what cowherd is talking about though

 

That's a good question - does the amount of snaps from shotgun make the run game less effective for us? 

747 snaps from shotgun: 238 rush, 480 pass (32% rush)

301 snaps under center:  197 rush 65 pass (65% rush)

That's actually 55% of our rushing snaps from shotgun. On paper, the run game from shotgun was more effective (6.2 ypc vs 4.0 ypc) but I have a hunch that might be because a lot of the run plays from shotgun were either designed runs for Josh or scrambles by Josh - on a quick look, couldn't find stats for that.

 

I could be off base, but in theory, I think it's entirely possible to craft a solid RB run game from shotgun.  Seems like a couple of the top rushing teams last season where the QB isn't the best RB (Falcons, Browns, 49ers) are still playing a lot of their snaps from shotgun - maybe not 70% like the Bills, but 60%-ish.

I think the Bills OL and backs may not have had the skill set to pull that off.   Not sure.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo Super Fan]

He makes zero sense like a lot of national sports media. Buffalo Bills QB Josh Allen would be even better with OJ Simpson, Joe Cribbs or Thurman Thomas. I think about what wide receiver Andre Reed could do with a QB like Josh Allen is scary. Buffalo Super Fan Andre Reed and Thurman Thomas had Jim Kelly. Yes they did but as much of a fan as I am of Jim Kelly he was a try hard QB he was very limited, very stiff athletically. Jim Kelly had to really work compared to a Miami Dolphins Dan Marino passing or a Denver Broncos John Elway and San Francisco 49ers Steve Young running he wasn’t the greatest athlete. To me Jim Kelly was like Cincinnati Reds Pete Rose in baseball without the championships for Jim Kelly that Pete Rose won unfortunately for us Bills fans with Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly made up for his shortcomings compared to the other three QB’s of his era by his never say give up bulldog mentality just like Cincinnati Reds Pete Rose. Josh Allen is like a better athletic combination of the three Dan Marino throwing and John Elway and Steve Young running. But if Josh Allen had a slot receiver in Andre Reed and a running back like Thurman Thomas even Bills head coach Sean McDermott being average couldn’t screw that up from winning a Super Bowl for the Buffalo Bills in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[mead107]

NO

 

[Bill from NYC]

On 7/14/2023 at 12:04 PM, Beck Water said:

I'm breaking this out from the Cowherd thread because I'm hoping to attract some answers from some knowledgeable folks here.  Imma tag a few but anyone who fancies himself savvy about NFL run game please speak up, I'm sure I've forgotten some knowledgeable folks I'd love to hear from (either that or I can't figure out how to spell your screen name and tag ya)  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted
 

Do you suspect that @BADOLBILZ might have a pertinent response  to your question? I tagged him just in case. 

[Don Otreply]

Answer me this, Will a talking heads show suffer when silly azs scenarios are the current topic? 

[BigAl2526]

Maybe less productive, but not less effective.  Less productive because it might mean fewer touches for running backs.  As effective because I think yards per carry can be as good or better than an offense with a "pocket" QB.

[Airseven]

Depends on whether the OC is capable.