Your Gut Instinct: Are Beane/McDermott On Track to Win Championship(s) or Wasting J. Allen's talent?

[Yawning Frog]

I think they both are a couple fraudsters if you ask me.

[Goin Breakdown]

9 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

 

It's an interesting opinion.  One I do not agree with besides the OL issues we had.  So they dont get any credit for drafting talent like JA, but they get all the criticism if they dont hit.  If you dont understand how this year played out based on many factors then we just dont agree.  The idea that you can just bring in new coach and GM every few years cause you dont win the SB is not really not how you achieve success.  Am I ok if they move on from Frazier and Dorsey?  Sure.  But I am not in this constant negative loop people on here are attached to.  It's way too easy to call 31 teams a year a failure. 

I fully understand what you are saying and it makes sense to me. I'm just not the guy that looks at things with rose colored glasses (not saying you are). When the bills drafted EJ or Losman they were mocked and criticized by the media and fans for not getting things right. Remember the saying "QB purgatory". If a team is criticized for not hitting on the pick, then yes, I do feel that I can also believe that they gambled on the Josh pick (I am so glad they did). We make fun of the patriots and say they are nothing without Brady and so on. It's all the same to me. We all say that the draft gurus are full of themselves and that we never really know who is going to pan out in the NFL. Many do and many don't. Some for their draft status some don't. And some way outplay what value they were projected to have. This is why I originally said that we are sold in hope because no one really knows. If they all knew then every team would be amazing and we'd all be winners. My problem with coaching is they just don't truly learn from their mistakes. They say "we'll watch the film and learn from it" but then they still line up 10 yards deep when only 4 yards is needed for a first down. They hope for other teams to make mistakes and for "us" to get a turnover  of sorts". I'm not saying fire guys pursay I just wish they'd do something they say they always do...."learn from their mistakes". I hope "we" are more healthy next year and that the weather doesn't screw with things, but those are things that can't be controlled. Coaching schemes can. Sorry for the essay lol. Go Bills!

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, HOUSE said:

What ever happened to TRUST THE PROCESS?

 

It's no accident that THE PROCESS was never clarified or defined.  So I guess it's a never-ending project.  Just keep trusting, like a stopped clock, at some point it will work out.  

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Until they invest 1st round draft capital & surround him with weapons other than Diggs & build up a legit O-line, they will be wasting his talents. The O can't be Josh playing Superman all the time. I really hope they're right about keeping Dorsey, cause I don't see it.

Totally agree...as long as McB keeps failing on defensive picks and FA's, they will continue to ask Josh to do it all with " no groceries"....that's an insanely stupid strategy. 

[WideNine]

37 minutes ago, Chaos said:

That is the correct question about all of the coaching positions.  Many Bill's fans carry scars and are only willing to ask the question:  Could the coaching be worse? 
 

It seems at this time the Bills as an organization are willing to let "very good" be the enemy of "excellent"

 

I don't believe that big swings with coaching lead to great results.

 

That is hard to digest when we see teams like Miami flushing their defensive staff and picking up Fangio and seeming to gain ground on our team.

 

With Frazier I just wonder if we have seen his best. There is a lot of churn about draft misses on the defense (particularly DL), but is some of that a DC or system that does not know how to best use the players he has?

 

I have seen posters here trash Elam and Rousseau and that is nonsense. Both are young players with a lot of promise.

 

I have never on this board suggested we move on from Frazier, till last year's 13 second botched defensive stand. This year I felt even more convinced that perhaps the team should be open to exploring other DC candidates.

 

Sometimes a limited shakeup is healthy for an Organization when things get stale.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by WideNine

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Not a complete excuse, but

1. coming to a new team mid-season meant that he had to learn a whole new offense and develop relationships with his new teammates

2. He was also playing Special Teams which drew some of his attention away from learning the new offense

3. The OL was really struggling so RBs needed to be held in to block more often than usual 

4. Singletary and Cook were both playing well ahead of him

 

Do you really think that they purposely drafted Cook and traded for Hines, both pass catching backs, and then forgot about using them?  I think more likely, circumstances like the above made incorporating the backs into the passing game difficult.

 

Specifically regarding Hines, imagine starting a new job at a different company.  Do you think you will understand everything and perform all roles immediately?

Christian McCaffrey seemed to pick up the 49'ers.

 

Then why make a trade if you aren't going to use them at what he does best?

 

Again this is coming from a person who is wondering why they aren't using the backs as receivers and screens more often.

 

again what do I know?

[OldTimer1960]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Christian McCaffrey seemed to pick up the 49'ers.

 

Then why make a trade if you aren't going to use them at what he does best?

 

Again this is coming from a person who is wondering why they aren't using the backs as receivers and screens more often.

 

again what do I know?

It is a fair question.  All that I am arguing is that there were mitigating circumstances.  I do think all of the above played into it.  McCaffrey got a lot of carries and I speculate that taking handoffs takes less familiarity with the O than does getting into pass routes.  Fair to question the coaching decisions on that.

[John from Riverside]

If I didn’t, love you, my bills, brethren, I would tell you that you deserved exactly what you got when you switched out coaches in management and we got another playoff drought going

 

To have this conversation whenever your team just went 13 and three is unbelievable

 

This team could easily go backwards if you start making changes

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

It is a fair question.  All that I am arguing is that there were mitigating circumstances.  I do think all of the above played into it.  McCaffrey got a lot of carries and I speculate that taking handoffs takes less familiarity with the O than does getting into pass routes.  Fair to question the coaching decisions on that.

Btw he caught 52 (8 the second game) in 11 regular season games for the 49ers. 

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

If I didn’t, love you, my bills, brethren, I would tell you that you deserved exactly what you got when you switched out coaches in management and we got another playoff drought going

 

To have this conversation whenever your team just went 13 and three is unbelievable

 

This team could easily go backwards if you start making changes

And I have it 80% due to Allen.  So no I don't think there'd be an issue

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Christian McCaffrey seemed to pick up the 49'ers.

 

Then why make a trade if you aren't going to use them at what he does best?

 

Again this is coming from a person who is wondering why they aren't using the backs as receivers and screens more often.

 

again what do I know?

 

Josh hates checking down to them. He'd rather throw a 15% deep ball. And they telegraph their running back screens so clearly. That has been a constant through two OCs now. But screens require a sell and the Bills don't sell.

[Billsfan1972]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh hates checking down to them. He'd rather throw a 15% deep ball. And they telegraph their running back screens so clearly. That has been a constant through two OCs now. But screens require a sell and the Bills don't sell.

And again that is all about coaching. It is something they would have looked at I would imagine and said "we got improve on this".  It's about recognizing an issue and doing something.  Then why did they even trade for Hines? Again water under the bridge and I hope it improves in 2023 that's all I have hope.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Bill from NYC]

I voted wasting talent but I fault McDermott FAR more than Beane.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And again that is all about coaching. It is something they would have looked at I would imagine and said "we got improve it on this".  It's a two recognize an issue then why did they even trade for Hines? Again water under the bridge and I hope it improves in 2023 that's all I have hope.

 

It is partly coaching, sure. But there is an execution thing there too. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 hours ago, Chaos said:

To my read opinions of posters on TBD are split on the Bills general direction.  One group thinks the Bills should stay the course and keeping doing the same things and that through some experience/maturation process the Bills will get better results.  The second group thinks the coaching staff has peaked and won't be able to do further in the playoffs than it has.   There is a smaller group that seems to think coaching changes automatically results in disaster and as long as your current coaches are competent NFL coaches and you don't should tempt the fates with a change. 

I am in the second group.  I am not sure thinking team McDermott has peaked means "fire everybody", but I feel like any further failure to progress means something should change. 

I may be guilty of overrating Josh Allen, but I think any current NFL coaching staff would get the Bills 2022 Roster to the playoffs, simply because Allen is that good.  So the goals have to be set higher than that. 

Interesting thought… I’m sure the weak minded will hurl insults at you. 
 

Allen is very good, but he needs to be forced to play the short game as part of the offense. Bengals gave him chain movers- he refused to take them. 
 

as far as McDermott/Beane- maybe he is too loyal to ‘his guys’ when it’s time to go a different way. 
 

The other bit is, say moving on is the right move, finding a sure upgrade isn’t easy or a sure thing.
 

It’s absolutely a problem that they are now 0-4 in championships with top qb talent that isn’t going to last forever 

[AlfaBill]

7 hours ago, saundena said:

I would have gone with on track to winning a championship, but McBeane's refusal to hold Frasier responsible for his 4th defensive meltdown in the playoffs leads me to believe they lack either the stomach or awareness to make the changes that need to be made.

 

This team has gone as far as it can defensively under Frasier and I hope OBD see that before it's too late

Perhaps the players didn’t execute. 

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

If I didn’t, love you, my bills, brethren, I would tell you that you deserved exactly what you got when you switched out coaches in management and we got another playoff drought going

 

To have this conversation whenever your team just went 13 and three is unbelievable

 

This team could easily go backwards if you start making changes

Yes they went 13-3. But did they seem like a powerhouse team? Will they improve with a change in staff, not a full makeover but perhaps a new DC? 13-3 is great as a number but to me this year they didn’t seem like a juggernaut at all. And then the playoff collapse again?

[WideNine]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh hates checking down to them. He'd rather throw a 15% deep ball. And they telegraph their running back screens so clearly. That has been a constant through two OCs now. But screens require a sell and the Bills don't sell.

 

Marino did a good analysis of this and the numbers bear it out. We stink at screens.

 

A couple other interesting things he pulled out during that podcast was how much better Allen was with play action and how drastically play action was reduced under Dorsey.

 

And one brain twister was that Allen when passing from a clean pocket with time was less efficient than when pressured...

 

Don't know where to go with that assuming it's true.

 

 

 

 

[Success]

We got Von Miller to put the team over the top - and he got hurt.

 

Teams have to overcome injuries - but when you lose the "missing piece" guy, it makes it hard to judge the season.  I think we'd be playing next week if he was still healthy.

 

[Victory Formation]

With this staff? No. And it looks like McD is not very accountable when it comes to making the necessary changes to this coaching staff in order for us to win a Super Bowl. He’s more loyal to his buddies than he is to the players, the franchise and the fan base.

[Matt_In_NH]

Is anyone willing to consider some changes in Josh Allen's decision making and ability to throw short or screen passes as part of the changes required to win the SB?

[Billsfan1972]

14 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Is anyone willing to consider some changes in Josh Allen's decision making and ability to throw short or screen passes as part of the changes required to win the SB?

Called coaching and seemed the later in the season, the more frustrated he was and we saw more long balls.  They had plenty of time to design an offense that worked.  

 

And how about some easy passes and separation by the receivers.  

 

Defenses figured out Dorsey the second half. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The Bills have a generational quarterback and they babied him from day one. They gave him no help the first two years and he went 28 games before his first 300-yard passing one. Show me any quarterback that went that long without a 300-yard game.  This was Josh freaking Allen.....  To me they could have worked on issues earlier.

 

Sorry this was a shiny new toy that should have been played with and built around day one. But let's not forget who the choice was to start the 2018 season it was Nathan Peterman.

It always bugged me how the Bills got credit for the great job they did bringing Allen along when in fact the Bills screwed up Allen's rookie year. 

 

First they clearly didn't intend to play him that year and blew the offense up.  The 2018 Buffalo O had to be one of the worst collections of offensive talent in Bills history. Second since they didn't plan on starting Allen he didn't get many 1st team reps through training camp and the preseason games. And instead of STARTING training camp with a veteran QB in the room to help Allen they had 2nd year Nathan Peterman on hand.

 

But all their plans went up in smoke when Peterman started against the Ravens and had one of the worst QB performances in NFL history.  So the next week Allen is thrown to the wolves.  IMO Allen rose above the bad circumstances that the Bills organization dealt him in 2018.  Now to be fair Bean/McD recognized that they had screwed up and over the 2nd half of the 2018 season and in 2019 they added better offensive players and a couple of vets in the QB room to help Allen out.

 

You are spot on though when you say that the Bills should have built around Allen since day 1.  Instead with the exception of Diggs the Bills have gone bargain basement shopping when it comes to committing draft & FA capitol to the offense surrounding Allen.  And in today's NFL this is the wrong approach to take.  Hopefully McD/Bean understand this and start correcting it immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Is anyone willing to consider some changes in Josh Allen's decision making and ability to throw short or screen passes as part of the changes required to win the SB?

He literally played better than any QB in NFL history in the playoffs last year and they still couldn't get out of the divisional round

[Chicken Boo]

I don't think they're wasting him yet. Free agency and the draft will tell the tale.

 

I imagine this is the frustration that Packers fans felt for the majority of Rodgers career.  

[Chaos]

7 hours ago, Chaos said:

Lucy had a process too.

In fact if I recall correctly, she advised Charlie Brown to trust the process. 

[CincyBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Is anyone willing to consider some changes in Josh Allen's decision making and ability to throw short or screen passes as part of the changes required to win the SB?

When they've tried to throw conventional screen passes more often then not Allen has to throw the ball at the RB's feet as the defense is all over the pay.

 

When they've tried to throw WR screens more often then not the WR catching the ball is nailed for no gain or even a loss as the Bills undersized WR group is unable to block for this kind of screen.

 

Allen throws plenty of "short passes" in a game.  The reality is that on very rare occasions do those catching these short passes make a guy miss, speed past the tackler or God forbid BREAK a tackle. 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

When they've tried to throw conventional screen passes more often then not Allen has to throw the ball at the RB's feet as the defense is all over the pay.

 

When they've tried to throw WR screens more often then not the WR catching the ball is nailed for no gain or even a loss as the Bills undersized WR group is unable to block for this kind of screen.

 

Allen throws plenty of "short passes" in a game.  The reality is that on very rare occasions do those catching these short passes make a guy miss, speed past the tackler or God forbid BREAK a tackle. 

 

 

 

They don't have the kind of athletes on offense with the physical talent to create offense for themselves. Diggs, as great a technician as he is, has the athleticism of a 5th rounder. He runs phenomenal routes and has great hands but he isn't a real threat after the catch. Davis, similarly, is a fourth rounder. Knox a third. McKenzie and Shakir are both 5th rounders. The Bills just don't have guys on offense with the kind of elite athleticism that can succeed outside play design or scheme.

[Milanos Milano]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

No offense, but you seem to think the fans get a vote or something. We’re really just along for the ride. 

Because fans pay the bills. If they want fans to show up, they need to win the big one at some point. 

[Chaos]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He literally played better than any QB in NFL history in the playoffs last year and they still couldn't get out of the divisional round

Coach McDermott has indicated Josh needs to play better.  How the hell can a coach win with Allen's level of play? 

[newcam2012]

8 hours ago, saundena said:

I would have gone with on track to winning a championship, but McBeane's refusal to hold Frasier responsible for his 4th defensive meltdown in the playoffs leads me to believe they lack either the stomach or awareness to make the changes that need to be made.

 

This team has gone as far as it can defensively under Frasier and I hope OBD see that before it's too late

It's already too late. Fraizer is the DC for the Bills next year. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

It is a fair question.  All that I am arguing is that there were mitigating circumstances.  I do think all of the above played into it.  McCaffrey got a lot of carries and I speculate that taking handoffs takes less familiarity with the O than does getting into pass routes.  Fair to question the coaching decisions on that.

 

I think it’s also fair to question why we make running a screen play look more difficult than landing a man on Mars. This is a serious question for any of you X’s and O’s guys. Why can a decent high school program do that more effectively than the Bills? Are we tipping it somehow with formation or personnel groupings or something? 

 

I’m more positive than most people (especially in this thread), but that is very confusing to me. 

[LeGOATski]

They're on track. They have the young core on defense with some great veterans. They have a franchise QB. I think they need another star on OL and either WR or RB. They remind me of the Steelers. I think they'll be great for a long time and win at least one

[newcam2012]

29 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He literally played better than any QB in NFL history in the playoffs last year and they still couldn't get out of the divisional round

The Bills offense scored 10 points at a home playoff game vs a decent Bengal D. No one on the Bills offense played well that game. Maybe Beasley and that say a lot about Dorsey and the Bills O. 

[Augie]

10 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

They're on track. They have the young core on defense with some great veterans. They have a franchise QB. I think they need another star on OL and either WR or RB. They remind me of the Steelers. I think they'll be great for a long time and win at least one

 

That was not nearly as despondent as some of the others who hate those 14 win season. We have some things to fix, and I think they know that. They are in the top handful of teams in the league. Only one team is left standing in the end. It hasn’t been our time yet, but the future is bright. 

[Chaos]

25 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think it’s also fair to question why we make running a screen play look more difficult than landing a man on Mars. This is a serious question for any of you X’s and O’s guys. Why can a decent high school program do that more effectively than the Bills? Are we tipping it somehow with formation or personnel groupings or something? 

 

I’m more positive than most people (especially in this thread), but that is very confusing to me. 

During the second half of the season, it seemed as though the defense knew the Bill's offensive play call more often than not.  Coincidentally the national media ran stories about the Bills "tells".   For example over 95% of the plays Diggs was off the field were running plays.  it seems like predicability is a killer. Fortunately Allen can run for his life and extend plays to compensate for the predictability problem. 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, AlfaBill said:

Perhaps the players didn’t execute. 

Yes they went 13-3. But did they seem like a powerhouse team? Will they improve with a change in staff, not a full makeover but perhaps a new DC? 13-3 is great as a number but to me this year they didn’t seem like a juggernaut at all. And then the playoff collapse again?

They would need to be careful to bring a defensive coordinator they can work with the players. We have not the players that they need to run a new defense. That is the issue that you run into switching out that defensive coordinator.
 

They were number one in de dVOA during the regular season when you’re making big decisions, they’re gonna fall back to the numbers

 

Get better players at the positions of weakness don’t overhaul the team

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Btw he caught 52 (8 the second game) in 11 regular season games for the 49ers. 

And I have it 80% due to Allen.  So no I don't think there'd be an issue

That is arrogant

43 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

Because fans pay the bills. If they want fans to show up, they need to win the big one at some point. 

Do you think fans are not gonna show up for 13 and three team?

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Chaos said:

During the second half of the season, it seemed as though the defense knew the Bill's offensive play call more often than not.  Coincidentally the national media ran stories about the Bills "tells".   For example over 95% of the plays Diggs was off the field were running plays.  it seems like predicability is a killer. Fortunately Allen can run for his life and extend plays to compensate for the predictability problem. 

 

IF we are smart, this can also be used to our advantage. Just when you think you know what’s coming….

 

We knew losing Daboll would hurt, but it was a little worse than I expected.  I hope Dorsey can be a quick learner and is willing to adapt. 

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

IF we are smart, this can also be used to our advantage. Just when you think you know what’s coming….

 

We knew losing Daboll would hurt, but it was a little worse than I expected.  I hope Dorsey can be a quick learner and is willing to adapt. 

I feel as though the Bills would do well to follow the Bill Walsh system of scripting their first 20 plays so that they can make sure they are not predictable.  

[Billever76]

9 hours ago, McBean said:

Let’s eliminate Brandon Beane from

this topic because he’s just the finance guy.

 

This is Sean McDermott’s team and organization. He’s the Pegula’s son.

 

He is 100% wasting Josh Allen. He’s 100% a mediocre coach that got lucky his first year to sneak into the playoffs in the first place. I believe that team had a turnover differential of something so abnormal it was nfl history. O, and the Dalton miracle on 4th down helped too. The wins starting coming when #17 was drafted. Did he draft Josh? If so, that’s the only thing he lucked up on.

 

We are 100% not winning a Super Bowl with this clown on the sidelines clapping. His record is so flawed it hurts. Brady left, AFC East QB’s have been atrocious, and Josh Allen has bailed his butt out countless times. Good luck to you all believing we are going somewhere with him. I’ll be here next offseason when we’re eliminated to say I told you so again. I was on record wanting his freakin butt left in KC after 13 seconds last year. It’s an absolute organization failure that will live along time until we win one that we let this clown come back and to top it off, let WNY homegrown BRIAN DABOLL walk out the building. Pathetic.

 

McDermott, Frazier, and Dorsey = mediocre coaches living behind a generational talent at the most important position in football.

 

I’ll gladly come back on here and eat crow if I’m wrong. I hope I am wrong about McClappy but I’m not. Whenever he punted in the snow years ago for a tie I knew then he was Dick Jauron 2.0.

Nailed it!

[Billsfan1972]

12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

 

That is arrogant

 

To say McD's success is highly tied to Allen?  Yes I think 80% of McD's success and the accolades are due the Allen's being their qb.

13 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

It always bugged me how the Bills got credit for the great job they did bringing Allen along when in fact the Bills screwed up Allen's rookie year. 

 

First they clearly didn't intend to play him that year and blew the offense up.  The 2018 Buffalo O had to be one of the worst collections of offensive talent in Bills history. Second since they didn't plan on starting Allen he didn't get many 1st team reps through training camp and the preseason games. And instead of STARTING training camp with a veteran QB in the room to help Allen they had 2nd year Nathan Peterman on hand.

 

But all their plans went up in smoke when Peterman started against the Ravens and had one of the worst QB performances in NFL history.  So the next week Allen is thrown to the wolves.  IMO Allen rose above the bad circumstances that the Bills organization dealt him in 2018.  Now to be fair Bean/McD recognized that they had screwed up and over the 2nd half of the 2018 season and in 2019 they added better offensive players and a couple of vets in the QB room to help Allen out.

 

You are spot on though when you say that the Bills should have built around Allen since day 1.  Instead with the exception of Diggs the Bills have gone bargain basement shopping when it comes to committing draft & FA capitol to the offense surrounding Allen.  And in today's NFL this is the wrong approach to take.  Hopefully McD/Bean understand this and start correcting it immediately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Appreciate the response.  I  was continually railed for stating what I thought was McD's training wheels he put on Allen years 1 and 2.  

 

Can you imagine of Peterman was just bad that first game, as opposed to having a second epic failure?  Allen may have waited another 8 games+.  

 

As with it seems Frazier, McD doubled down on Peterman.

 

But we are where we are and only have hope.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Thurman#1]

Don't do polls. 

 

This is a good example of why.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Thurman#1