Singletary or Hines or neither?

[BearNorth]

Motor is still one of the best blocking RB's in the game, until we fix the O-Line, might be worth it just for that. 

 

AJ Dillon, and Motor are the only 2 RB's ranked in top 10 for both run and pass block.

 

Longer term would be nice to have a thumper like Dillon on third and short to save some wear and tear on JA17

[SCBills]

Neither, but I’m open to Hines if they have a plan for him as an actual RB. 
 

James Cook, maybe Hines and a Day 3 pick. 
 

Singletary is a perfect example of the “good, not great” players this staff pays far too much to litter all over the roster. 
 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by SCBills

[frostbitmic]

It's all about Special Teams ...

 

Hines returns kicks quite well

Singletary doesn't play ST's

 

Cook will be the #1 RB next season,,, Having a tank in the RB room would be a good thing to have on the rare snow game days.

[Billz4ever]

3 hours ago, BillsCuse said:

They are both gone.  Need to cut Hines for cap relief - he has no dead $, so will save 4.5 million.  

Who else do you trust to return kicks that doesn't scare the s*** out of you?  

[0017]

I’d like to see all rbs gone except cook, including mr. Roster spot Taiwan Jones! 

[Billz4ever]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

I would rather have Singlerary on Hines contract. I have no interest in paying Hines $4.7M and $5.4M to be a kick returner in our current cap situation. If you are going to be a $5M RB you better touch the ball more than 4 times per game.

 

I think $5M is a fair AAV for Singletary. 

 

Hines is only a kick returner because Dorsey doesn't seem to have a clue how to use a pass catching RB in the offense.  Same with Cook.  Why did we trade for Hines or draft a back like Cook in the first place then?

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

 

Hines is only a kick returner because Dorsey doesn't seem to have a clue how to use a pass catching RB in the offense.  Same with Cook.  Why did we trade for Hines or draft a back like Cook in the first place then?

 

And Daboll didn't use Yeldon or Matt Breida either. McCoys receiving production was basically halves here compared to Philly. 

 

There is a continuous disconnect between the FO finding a receiving RB and the staff actually wanting one and it isn't specific to Dorsey. 
 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Mango

[NewEra]

Just now, H2o said:

Bro, you're about to make some people spaz out on you. 

Hahaha.  Just a bit of trolling.  

 

 

He’s definitely not my preference but if he’s the pick, I’ll get behind it rather than spending my time crying about it.  I’d be happy to have a possibly elite player at any position.
 

At the moment, I don’t think any of the WRs that will likely be available will ever be close to elite.  More like good WR2.  I don’t know much about the OL prospects atm.  I’d rather take a RB in rd 1 than take a Poyer or edmunds replacement.  If the WRs or OL available aren’t 1st rd grades, I’d rather draft the potentially elite RB.  
 

That said, Beane usually tries to fill our biggest holes prior to the draft.  Not sure if that will be possible this year, but I think we’ll have a much better idea of what we will and won’t be drafting come day one of the draft.  If we shift some resources around and add some upgrades at OL and/or WRs prior to the draft, it’s anyone’s guess who we take rd 1.  BPA at a positions the board detests drafting rd 1 will be in play.  

 

[Airseven]

They'll keep Hines considering they invested a draft pick. He's earned the returner spot and hopefully Dorsey has an epiphany about his use in the offense. Singletary is gone via UFA (thanks and goodbye). 

 

Cook won't hold up as a bell cow, so they need to add another RB - likely a vet in free agency. Montgomery, Harris... 

 

Gilliam will return. Jones will be forgotten and then inevitably resurface from the dumpster in August.

[Logic]

I've said before that I don't believe in giving out second contracts to running backs unless they're either elite game changers (Derrick Henry, Dalvin Cook) or big pieces of the passing offense (CMC, Kamara).

That said, as much as I like Singletary, I'm letting him walk.

If the Bills had oodles of cap space, then sure, re-sign him to a team friendly deal if he's willing. The free agent running back class this year is loaded, so maybe he doesn't get many big offers and signs back here for peanuts. But since the Bills DON'T have oodles of cap space and have bigger needs elsewhere and just spent a 2nd round pick on a running back, I'm saying "so long and thanks for the memories" to Motor.

Cook/Hines is a versatile and speedy duo. Draft a late round guy or bring in a few UDFAs to compete for the third running back spot. Perhaps someone with a little more size and pop in his pads, since Cook and Hines are both on the smaller side.

[ngbills]

Let them both walk. If they are high on Bijan Robinson they may draft him. Otherwise there are plenty of Mostert type guys that can partner with Cook on the cheap.  Too many holes on OL and Wr to value RB that much. 

[Billz4ever]

13 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

And Daboll didn't use Yeldon or Matt Breida either. McCoys receiving production was basically halves here compared to Philly. 

 

There is a continuous disconnect between the FO finding a receiving RB and the staff actually wanting one and it isn't specific to Dorsey. 
 

True, but Dorsey is the one calling the plays and Cook, Hines, and Motor are who we have.  Are we just going to keep trading/signing/drafting backs we don't use correctly based on their skills or actually start using them based on the reasoning used for getting them in the first place?  

 

If they can't even figure this out, I don't know how this team ever wins a championship.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Billz4ever

[H2o]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Hahaha.  Just a bit of trolling.  

 

 

He’s definitely not my preference but if he’s the pick, I’ll get behind it rather than spending my time crying about it.  I’d be happy to have a possibly elite player at any position.
 

At the moment, I don’t think any of the WRs that will likely be available will ever be close to elite.  More like good WR2.  I don’t know much about the OL prospects atm.  I’d rather take a RB in rd 1 than take a Poyer or edmunds replacement.  If the WRs or OL available aren’t 1st rd grades, I’d rather draft the potentially elite RB.  
 

That said, Beane usually tries to fill our biggest holes prior to the draft.  Not sure if that will be possible this year, but I think we’ll have a much better idea of what we will and won’t be drafting come day one of the draft.  If we shift some resources around and add some upgrades at OL and/or WRs prior to the draft, it’s anyone’s guess who we take rd 1.  BPA at a positions the board detests drafting rd 1 will be in play.  

 

A RB in the 1st and heads would explode on here. I like Bijan, but I think he goes before us in the 20's at the latest. Tampa, NY (depending on Barkley), Dallas seem like the most likely landing spots to me. There are a couple of WR's who may make it to us I can see being the pick. If not, I hope it will be someone worthy on the OL. We'll see. Combine, pro days, FA, a lot left to happen. 

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, H2o said:

A RB in the 1st and heads would explode on here. I like Bijan, but I think he goes before us in the 20's at the latest. Tampa, NY (depending on Barkley), Dallas seem like the most likely landing spots to me. There are a couple of WR's who may make it to us I can see being the pick. If not, I hope it will be someone worthy on the OL. We'll see. Combine, pro days, FA, a lot left to happen. 

If we didn't have the holes we have on the O-Line and a bunch of underperforming receivers, I'd be all about him, but right now, he'd be considered a want, not a need.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

True, but Dorsey is the one calling the plays and Cook, Hines, and Motor are who we have.  Are we just going to keep trading/signing/drafting backs we don't use correctly based on their skills or actually start using them based on the reasoning used for getting them in the first place?  

 

If they can't even figure this out, I don't know how this team ever wins a championship.

 

I agree with you on the allocation or resources. It makes me frustrated with the FO, not necessarily the coaching staff. At least on this topic. I have frustrations with Dorsey too. 

 

The ingredients are not matching the meal and I don't get it. Barkley only had 330 yards receiving this year. 80% of the board thinks Frank Reich is the solution here and he didn't use Hines either. So WTF does Beane keep hunting this position down? Who is driving this initiative? 

[Freddie's Dead]

Motor Singletary is the most underutilized RB in the NFL.  Dude gets less than 10 carries a game, yet still averages 4.6/carry.  We should re-sign him, but I don't think it will happen.  I expect McBeane to lowball him, and he may take it, but if I were him, I'd look for a place where I could make money and play.

[Billz4ever]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I agree with you on the allocation or resources. It makes me frustrated with the FO, not necessarily the coaching staff. At least on this topic. I have frustrations with Dorsey too. 

 

The ingredients are not matching the meal and I don't get it. Barkley only had 330 yards receiving this year. 80% of the board thinks Frank Reich is the solution here and he didn't use Hines either. So WTF does Beane keep hunting this position down? Who is driving this initiative? 

We also have to decide on what kind of running team we are.  You can use almost any game as an example, whether it's game we ran the ball well or games we didn't.

 

The O-Line is not good at sustaining blocks, so the running plays that are quick...snap, back gets the ball and bam, hits the hole and gets up field is how we had success running. The line isn't asked to hold blocks very long. It's the running plays that are slow to develop where we usually get little to nothing because the blockers can't sustain blocks long enough.

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, H2o said:

A RB in the 1st and heads would explode on here. I like Bijan, but I think he goes before us in the 20's at the latest. Tampa, NY (depending on Barkley), Dallas seem like the most likely landing spots to me. There are a couple of WR's who may make it to us I can see being the pick. If not, I hope it will be someone worthy on the OL. We'll see. Combine, pro days, FA, a lot left to happen. 

Oh I agree.  Definitely hope Bijan is not the pick….but if he is…..what can we do except embrace it and hope it works out?  Oh yeah, we can whine and cry about it for years….. great way to spend our one chance @ life.

[transient]

12 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Oh I agree.  Definitely hope Bijan is not the pick….but if he is…..what can we do except embrace it and hope it works out?  Oh yeah, we can whine and cry about it for years….. great way to spend our one chance @ life.

As opposed to the inherent lifetime value in watching men run around chasing another man with a ball? 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

5.5M per year for Singletary seems too rich.

 

If he's looking for that, I would let him go and find a back in the 5th round.

[Buckets]

6 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Cook isn't going anywhere.  He has looked better as the season progressed and still has three years left on his rookie contract and has a cap friendly hit of $1.3mm in 2023.  I don't think Beane is going to keep both Singletary and Hines.  It is going to be one or the other.

 

Nyheim's contract is not cheap, his cap hit in 2023 is $4.79mm, and in 2024 it is $5.48 

https://overthecap.com/player/nyheim-hines/6989

 

Singletary is an unrestricted free agent and according to Sportrac his projected free agent contract should be right around $5.5mm annually for three years.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/devin-singletary-29110/market-value/

 

Hines is great in the return game and has stand alone value in that respect.  He has more speed than Motor and is probably a better receiving back than Motor.  We haven't seen him carry the ball much.  In his five years in the league the most carries he's had in a season was 89 in 2020.  That year he averaged 4.3 yds per carry.  His career average is 3.9 yds per carry.  The most receptions Hines had in a season was 63 in both '18 and '20.  His career average yds per reception is 7.4 yds.  Across his career, Hines catch percentage is 77%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HineNy00.htm

 

Singletary had 177 carries this year and averaged 4.6 yds per carry.  He had 38 receptions this year with an average of 7.4 yds per reception.  The most receptions he's had was 40 in the '21 season.  Across Motor's career, his catch percentage is 75%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SingDe00.htm

 

The question is which back, Motor or Hines, compliments Cooks the best?  In Cook we have a speedy / receiving back.  That is the same skill set that Hines brings to the table, plus his return skills.  Does it make sense for the offense to have their two primary RBs with essentially the same skill set?  Also, are Cook and Hines able to soak up the 170 plus carries Singletary has a season?   Cooks has looked good running the ball but has a smaller frame.  Can we expect him to hold up carrying the ball 100+ times a year in the NFL?

 

Singletary's projected free agent contract isn't much more than what Hines is under contract for now.  What does Beane decide to do?  The problem is I don't think Beane can afford both.  Beane's last option is to release both of them and build around Cook with new faces.

 

 

Cook plus a new face draft or otherwise.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Buckets
Spelling

[TheBrownBear]

I like both players, but I think Singletary is more valuable for what we like to do.  Singletary is a fine first and second down back and a surprisingly strong tackle breaker at his size.  Hines' ceiling on offense is a gadget guy, since he's not a tackle breaker/pile mover when handed the ball.  I think Hines could be a great weapon in a well schemed offense, but that isn't what we are now under Dorsey, so no point in eating up cap space with a return specialist.  So, cut Hines, and then I think it comes down to trying to get Singletary to take a team friendly deal or replace him with a 3rd or 4th round rookie RB (or Duke Johnson type FA) to split carries with Cook.

[gjv]

Bijan Robinson is the one player in the draft that could fall to the Bills and have the greatest positive impact. I would even go so far as to recommend if Robinson was available around pick 18, the Bills should be calling to trade up.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, transient said:

As opposed to the inherent lifetime value in watching men run around chasing another man with a ball? 

Yeah….. opposed to that

[DapperCam]

4 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

He's the best return man we've had since Roberts left, why cut him and leave a hole at depth RB and return man? I think we brought Hines in so Shakir and/or McKenzie can focus on WR and while he'll remain. 

Because we’re tight to the cap and a return man can be had for much cheaper. His cap hit could pay for half of a competent guard.

[RyanC883]

if we can let both go without dead cap that may be the best thing to do.  We can draft someone who can return kicks, and also draft another RB.  Use the cap savings on WR, OL.  

50 minutes ago, gjv said:

Bijan Robinson is the one player in the draft that could fall to the Bills and have the greatest positive impact. I would even go so far as to recommend if Robinson was available around pick 18, the Bills should be calling to trade up.

 

you'll get downvoted for this, but he profiles as the rare back that is a do it all game changer (although I would not trade up for him).  

[Mango]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Cut Hines. 
 

Hope that one of them will take a team friendly deal. If not, use that money on another position and bring back Duke and draft a RB mid-late.  
 

or Bijan 🤣 

 

I like the idea of bringing Duke back to help fill out the RB room. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Mango

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would say neither, we already have Cook and don’t need 3 RB’s with the same running style.

53 minutes ago, gjv said:

Bijan Robinson is the one player in the draft that could fall to the Bills and have the greatest positive impact. I would even go so far as to recommend if Robinson was available around pick 18, the Bills should be calling to trade up.

I agree, there are only a hand full of RB’s that I would even entertain taking in the 1st rd. This is one of the few that I would.

[SydneyBillsFan]

I distinctly remember guys on the Colts board saying that Hines was not a 3-down or short yardage RB, and that Reich was not utilising his skill set when Taylor got injured. So we need to take this into account - he cannot be a straight swap for Motor.

 

Singletary has been labelled too small and not a thumper but I call BS on that one. Who can forget his final rush to get the first down against the fish - he literally carried 3 guys to seal the game. Not sure how anyone can be an effective RB behind that line. I think 4.6 yards per carry is pretty good under the circumstances. 

 

Given that Cook is almost certain to stay, it seems inevitable that one of the other two may be shown the door. And unless Motor is prepared to take a pay cut then I fear it will be him.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

We have no RB on the roster that is a big enough threat to even attempt play action.

1 minute ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

I distinctly remember guys on the Colts board saying that Hines was not a 3-down or short yardage RB, and that Reich was not utilising his skill set when Taylor got injured. So we need to take this into account - he cannot be a straight swap for Motor.

 

Singletary has been labelled too small and not a thumper but I call BS on that one. Who can forget his final rush to get the first down against the fish - he literally carried 3 guys to seal the game. Not sure how anyone can be an effective RB behind that line. I think 4.6 yards per carry is pretty good under the circumstances. 

 

Given that Cook is almost certain to stay, it seems inevitable that one of the other two may be shown the door. And unless Motor is prepared to take a pay cut then I fear it will be him.

I think one of McD’s glaring weaknesses is that he over value’s average players

[NastyNateSoldiers]

8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Cook isn't going anywhere.  He has looked better as the season progressed and still has three years left on his rookie contract and has a cap friendly hit of $1.3mm in 2023.  I don't think Beane is going to keep both Singletary and Hines.  It is going to be one or the other.

 

Nyheim's contract is not cheap, his cap hit in 2023 is $4.79mm, and in 2024 it is $5.48 

https://overthecap.com/player/nyheim-hines/6989

 

Singletary is an unrestricted free agent and according to Sportrac his projected free agent contract should be right around $5.5mm annually for three years.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/devin-singletary-29110/market-value/

 

Hines is great in the return game and has stand alone value in that respect.  He has more speed than Motor and is probably a better receiving back than Motor.  We haven't seen him carry the ball much.  In his five years in the league the most carries he's had in a season was 89 in 2020.  That year he averaged 4.3 yds per carry.  His career average is 3.9 yds per carry.  The most receptions Hines had in a season was 63 in both '18 and '20.  His career average yds per reception is 7.4 yds.  Across his career, Hines catch percentage is 77%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HineNy00.htm

 

Singletary had 177 carries this year and averaged 4.6 yds per carry.  He had 38 receptions this year with an average of 7.4 yds per reception.  The most receptions he's had was 40 in the '21 season.  Across Motor's career, his catch percentage is 75%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SingDe00.htm

 

The question is which back, Motor or Hines, compliments Cooks the best?  In Cook we have a speedy / receiving back.  That is the same skill set that Hines brings to the table, plus his return skills.  Does it make sense for the offense to have their two primary RBs with essentially the same skill set?  Also, are Cook and Hines able to soak up the 170 plus carries Singletary has a season?   Cooks has looked good running the ball but has a smaller frame.  Can we expect him to hold up carrying the ball 100+ times a year in the NFL?

 

Singletary's projected free agent contract isn't much more than what Hines is under contract for now.  What does Beane decide to do?  The problem is I don't think Beane can afford both.  Beane's last option is to release both of them and build around Cook with new faces.

 

 

This team needs a bellow back a big strong physically explosive back that can carry the load when necessary. A true 3 down back think David Johnson type or better . Not Singletary nor Cook or Hines have that type of skill set . Those 4.6 yds per carry I like to call them empty calorie carries because they never really come when u need them most . Our backs for the last 2yrs have seen the most light boxes in the league and they should be much better considering that. 
 

I don’t think people really know how much we need an elite back on this team with a competent Oline . It would make a world of difference. So I say keep Cook cut Hines or make him take a massive paycut and still add an all purpose back to carry the load. Now getting a great back doesn’t mean we have to become a running team but it would make it much harder for opponents to gameplan against and it would relieve a ton of stress off of Allen shoulders . Whenever we see KC or Cinny in a big game let’s see them give us those 8 man secondaries we can gash em all day. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

4 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

It's all about Special Teams ...

 

Hines returns kicks quite well

Singletary doesn't play ST's

 

Cook will be the #1 RB next season,,, Having a tank in the RB room would be a good thing to have on the rare snow game days.

If Kirby Smart and Georgia didn’t think Cook was a #1 back why would the Bills think of him as one. In his 4yrs in college he had 230 carrie’s total and I believe the highest was in the 80s . If McBeane believe Cook can carry the load they got another thing coming to them he’d be hurt or worn down by week 8 . But then again this regime never ceases to amaze me there as bone headed as they come. 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, SydneyBillsFan said:

I distinctly remember guys on the Colts board saying that Hines was not a 3-down or short yardage RB, and that Reich was not utilising his skill set when Taylor got injured. So we need to take this into account - he cannot be a straight swap for Motor.

 

Singletary has been labelled too small and not a thumper but I call BS on that one. Who can forget his final rush to get the first down against the fish - he literally carried 3 guys to seal the game. Not sure how anyone can be an effective RB behind that line. I think 4.6 yards per carry is pretty good under the circumstances. 

 

Given that Cook is almost certain to stay, it seems inevitable that one of the other two may be shown the door. And unless Motor is prepared to take a pay cut then I fear it will be him.

 

I totally agree. Singletary has gotten much stronger since he was drafted. He isn't big or fast, but he is shifty and has learned to hit the hole well. He has carried a lot of defenders this year. 

 

[oldmanfan]

Both.  Improve the lines and Motor will shine.  Wake Dorsey up and use Hines all over the field.

[Aussie Joe]

5 hours ago, khlax3 said:

I think Hines will be back and his contract will be re-worked. They will add a year or 2 to the contract and give him some guaranteed money to reduce his cap hit. He provides value as a KR/PR/RB. If you let him and singletary go you need to go out and sign at least 2 running backs. 
 

I would expect to see a running back room of 

cook- cap hit 1.3

Hines - 3 million

bigger back vet around 2 to 2.5 million cap space 

It’s like you read my mind …although I think the bigger back might be a late round pick to save some money..( if they keep Hines) 

[BigAl2526]

8 hours ago, Dopey said:

I don’t see Hines getting a ton of carries. I think he’ll be our primary kick returner. He’s really good at it. Singletary leaves for more money. We’ll draft a rb late and a fa. Just my thoughts. 

I agree that Hines and Cook are not cut out to be a workhouse back.   I think Hines could probably handle more carries than Cook.  That is unless Cook can add a little weight like his older brother and still retain his quickness/speed.  You're right - if Singletary departs he'll have to be replaced.  It might be earlier in the draft than you project though.  Just my opinion.

[Maybe Someday]

I doubt Singletary wants to resign with us.  He averaged just over 10 carries a game this past season (which is ridiculous but that's for another thread).  About 30 backs had more carries than he did last year.  I think he'll go somewhere that says will give him the ball more.  

 

I see Cook, Hines and a FA type back with some size.  

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Maybe Someday said:

I doubt Singletary wants to resign with us.  He averaged just over 10 carries a game this past season (which is ridiculous but that's for another thread).  About 30 backs had more carries than he did last year.  I think he'll go somewhere that says will give him the ball more.  

 

I see Cook, Hines and a FA type back with some size.  

Yeah nobody is going to sign Devin to be a feature back. Maybe a #2. I hope that he is not back. He ain’t it. 

[Maybe Someday]

4 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Yeah nobody is going to sign Devin to be a feature back. Maybe a #2. I hope that he is not back. He ain’t it. 

He can be part of a pretty good duo though. He’s got a really good career YPC. If only he weren’t so slow. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Maybe Someday said:

He can be part of a pretty good duo though. He’s got a really good career YPC. If only he weren’t so slow. 

I hear ya, I still don’t he will ever be more than a 10-12 carry a game guy. Hes meh