Greg Cosell Preview of Bills vs Bengals on One Bills Live

[Beck Water]

 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/greg-cosell-bengals-at-bills-in-depth-preview

 

for those who might still be debating the INT on the pass to John Brown - Cosell leads off the show talking about it.

Says that it's a "flood concept", the play is designed to go to Dawson Knox as the first read but he's covered.  Says John Brown is running a clear route and you never want to go to John Brown on that play, but that's the way Josh thinks.  Puts the blame on Josh for that one.

 

As always, a good listen.

 

Overall, my impression is that the Bills offense kind of puzzles Cosell.  He sees it as "erratic".  But then he looks at the end result, where the Bills score a lot of points, and sort of throws up his hands.  He acknowledges that it's the best 3rd down offense in football, so "something must be working"

[Logic]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Overall, my impression is that the Bills offense kind of puzzles Cosell.  He sees it as "erratic".  But then he looks at the end result, where the Bills score a lot of points, and sort of throws up his hands.  He acknowledges that it's the best 3rd down offense in football, so "something must be working"

Thanks for the post.

The bolded pretty much sums up my experience watching the Bills offense this year, too.

I spend four quarters shaking my head, thinking it looks disjointed and ugly, wondering whether I should be more mad at Dorsey or Allen, pondering missed opportunities....then I look up and they've scored 30+ points and won the game. Then I check the year long stats and see that they're top five or top three in every major category in both basic stats and advanced analytics.

Puzzling, indeed...but effective!

Edited January 20, 2023 by Logic

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Logic said:

Thanks for the post.

The bolded pretty much sums up my experience watching the Bills offense this year, too.

I spend four quarters shaking my head, thinking it looks disjointed and ugly, wondering whether I should be more mad at Dorsey or Allen, pondering missed opportunities....then I look up and they've scored 30+ points and won the game. Then I check the year long stats and see that they're top five or top three in every major category in both basic stats and advanced analytics.

Puzzling, indeed...but effective!

Strategy appears to be look like you're disjointed and not getting the offense to purr, all the while you are subtly killing the enemy. 

[Nitro]

If it confuses Greg Cossell then it points to the QB.  Allen is an extremely talented man who does the unthinkable at times.  The running game is a disjointed after thought.  That is on Dorsey.  Great interview. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I am going to comment before and after I listen to it.

 

Before:

I enjoy Cosell, but I would say that he doesn’t give any opinions on how things will actually go, he’s not a paid analyst, but that does take away some of the intrigue into what he says.

 

 

[Beck Water]

53 minutes ago, Nitro said:

If it confuses Greg Cossell then it points to the QB.  Allen is an extremely talented man who does the unthinkable at times.  The running game is a disjointed after thought.  That is on Dorsey.  Great interview. 

 

One of Cosell's comments is actually that there's no "synchronicity" (his word) between the Bills running game and passing game - meaning that there aren't connections between the run plays and pass plays they run where defending the threat of one opens up the other. 

 

[gomper]

Uncle Greg is terrific. I always learn something. 

[KDIGGZ]

But I was told by posters on TBD that it was John Brown's fault. How can they be wrong? 🤔

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/greg-cosell-bengals-at-bills-in-depth-preview

 

for those who might still be debating the INT on the pass to John Brown - Cosell leads off the show talking about it.

Says that it's a "flood concept", the play is designed to go to Dawson Knox as the first read but he's covered.  Says John Brown is running a clear route and you never want to go to John Brown on that play, but that's the way Josh thinks.  Puts the blame on Josh for that one.

 

As always, a good listen.

 

Overall, my impression is that the Bills offense kind of puzzles Cosell.  He sees it as "erratic".  But then he looks at the end result, where the Bills score a lot of points, and sort of throws up his hands.  He acknowledges that it's the best 3rd down offense in football, so "something must be working"

I have zero reason to doubt this. Just wanted to add a thought.

 

Im 34, the team was bad from the time i was old enough to remember games, up till 5 years ago.

 

I remember being excited for Holcomb, Losman, that dude from SEA, ive seen almost exclusively bad teams.

 

How am i so spoiled by Josh that i sincerely dont feel like were a top 3rd down team. That 2020 team spoiled me, because i genuinely feel that we stall out on too many drives. 

 

Admittedly its perception but holy smokes, what a wild swing of expectations

[WotAGuy]

The K-Gun was scoring so fast, we were all complaining it put too much stress on the defense. 
 

 

They went to 4 Super Bowls that way. 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the post.

The bolded pretty much sums up my experience watching the Bills offense this year, too.

I spend four quarters shaking my head, thinking it looks disjointed and ugly, wondering whether I should be more mad at Dorsey or Allen, pondering missed opportunities....then I look up and they've scored 30+ points and won the game. Then I check the year long stats and see that they're top five or top three in every major category in both basic stats and advanced analytics.

Puzzling, indeed...but effective!

But but bur stats tell us we are better than with dabol! We are number 1 in every catagory and other excuses.

 

I get it. to the untrained eye it may look rough and yet you say "ok, we still are good."

 

But it's like ... Thinking of metaphors. ... Watching a 6 yr old win a chess match against another kid.  There ain't much thought process to conceptualize a strategy. There is only singular moves which don't seem to make sense.

 

We have 3 or 4 good run plays setting up a strategy to drop a play action 1st down for a long pass... But instead run a naked boot pass screen to the full back. We throw 3 long balls to get to the end zone and run Josh on 2 QB sneaks in a row then on 3rd and 8 we run a low % pass play to the corner of the end zone.

 

There is no coordinator with this offense. And I get that Dorsey is a coordinator. I'm not saying he is bad but like has been pointed out. He's erratic. And it's infuriating.

 

....

 

On another note. Remembering Roman as an OC. The dude had a system, a coordinated scheme, a method to run his offense. He drove people nuts because of his run first leanings but I give him credit because he was limited with his player talent.

....

 

Dorsey will be a very good OC in time. I don't know about HC. 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

One of Cosell's comments is actually that there's no "synchronicity" (his word) between the Bills running game and passing game - meaning that there aren't connections between the run plays and pass plays they run where defending the threat of one opens up the other. 

 

Greg Roman. Run game coordinater. 1 yr. Mega contract. Dorsey leaves, buddy.... Maybe we give it you 

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

But I was told by posters on TBD that it was John Brown's fault. How can they be wrong? 🤔

Tony Romo actually thought it was Browns fault too. 

[WideNine]

4 hours ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the post.

The bolded pretty much sums up my experience watching the Bills offense this year, too.

I spend four quarters shaking my head, thinking it looks disjointed and ugly, wondering whether I should be more mad at Dorsey or Allen, pondering missed opportunities....then I look up and they've scored 30+ points and won the game. Then I check the year long stats and see that they're top five or top three in every major category in both basic stats and advanced analytics.

Puzzling, indeed...but effective!

 

Interesting article from The Ringer that dives deeper into the successes and some of the things that are not working as well this season.

 

Goes into some comparison data between Daboll's offense and Dorsey's too that is interesting.

 

 

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nfl/2023/1/20/23563615/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-offense

 

 

 

 

[Bkelly]

It's all about tendencies. How infuriating is it to not find tendencies in an offense you are game planning against? It's genius. Offense seems disjointed yet scores almost at will. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Cosells segment on OBL is always a good listen

[T master]

9 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Tony Romo actually thought it was Browns fault too. 

 

Not sure how it could be Browns fault the ball looked to be under thrown or it would have been over the defenders head Brown should have at least jumped & tried to deflect it form him but was smoke suppose to slow down a bit in the route ? 

[finn]

14 hours ago, Logic said:

I spend four quarters shaking my head, thinking it looks disjointed and ugly, wondering whether I should be more mad at Dorsey or Allen, pondering missed opportunities....then I look up and they've scored 30+ points and won the game. Then I check the year long stats and see that they're top five or top three in every major category in both basic stats and advanced analytics.

We could be watching an offense that could be scoring 50 points a game and is slumming with 30. Watching them, I get a sense that something clicks, they could blow out anyone. 

 

It's also obvious that Allen needs another blue-chip receiver and a reliable right tackle. So maybe 30 pts/game is all we're going to get this season. (I'm ok with that.)

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, finn said:

We could be watching an offense that could be scoring 50 points a game and is slumming with 30. Watching them, I get a sense that something clicks, they could blow out anyone. 

 

It's also obvious that Allen needs another blue-chip receiver and a reliable right tackle. So maybe 30 pts/game is all we're going to get this season. (I'm ok with that.)

Couldn’t agree more. Why it’s been so frustrating is because they keep leaving points on the field. I’m afraid the time for that luxury is now past. If they want win a Super Bowl they’re going to have to go through Cincinnati, Kansas City, and probably the Eagles or 49ers. It’s time to close these games, and get the 50 points they’ve been flirting with. 
Go Bills 

[TheBrownBear]

28 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Not sure how it could be Browns fault the ball looked to be under thrown or it would have been over the defenders head Brown should have at least jumped & tried to deflect it form him but was smoke suppose to slow down a bit in the route ? 

Yeah, not sure what happened there between Brown and Josh - maybe a miscommunication, maybe just a bad ball from Josh.  I've watched the play a bunch and Josh throws it to Brown because the safety jumps the flood concept to Knox.  He had better options in the flat, but Josh did have one on one with Brown and he was probably emboldened by the success he had earlier in the game and going back to week 18 with the long ball.  An interception at the goal line wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world if we had just tackled the guy instead of letting him jog free for 60 yards.  But yeah, I'm comfortable pinning that one on Josh.

[WhoTom]

15 hours ago, Nitro said:

If it confuses Greg Cossell then it points to the QB.

 

If it confuses Greg Cosell, then it probably confuses opposing DCs.

 

 

[Nextmanup]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/greg-cosell-bengals-at-bills-in-depth-preview

 

for those who might still be debating the INT on the pass to John Brown - Cosell leads off the show talking about it.

Says that it's a "flood concept", the play is designed to go to Dawson Knox as the first read but he's covered.  Says John Brown is running a clear route and you never want to go to John Brown on that play, but that's the way Josh thinks.  Puts the blame on Josh for that one.

 

As always, a good listen.

 

Overall, my impression is that the Bills offense kind of puzzles Cosell.  He sees it as "erratic".  But then he looks at the end result, where the Bills score a lot of points, and sort of throws up his hands.  He acknowledges that it's the best 3rd down offense in football, so "something must be working"

I was listening to the radio yesterday, and they mentioned a talking head (can't remember the name) who analyzed the team and said our offense always looks stuck in mud or words to that effect, but then somehow ends up with 30 points at the end of the game.

 

I.E., it ended up as a compliment of sorts, but the point was that we are NOT getting all out of it that we should be.

 

He pointed the finger at the OC, saying we shouldn't expect him to be as good as Daboll.

 

He felt like Dorsey has done a lot of clearly obviously WRONG things this year.

 

 

[T master]

5 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, not sure what happened there between Brown and Josh - maybe a miscommunication, maybe just a bad ball from Josh.  I've watched the play a bunch and Josh throws it to Brown because the safety jumps the flood concept to Knox.  He had better options in the flat, but Josh did have one on one with Brown and he was probably emboldened by the success he had earlier in the game and going back to week 18 with the long ball.  An interception at the goal line wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world if we had just tackled the guy instead of letting him jog free for 60 yards.  But yeah, I'm comfortable pinning that one on Josh.

 

I think if Josh would at times just take what is right there in front of him it would be much better, sure it wouldn't be a ton of yards but would keep them on the field longer & give the D more of a rest then when they come up to cover the short pass nail it for a long one .

 

I remember a play that was talked about on a game review & it could be this play when Josh released it Beasely was right there in front of him with no one with in 5 yards of him & i think it could have been a first down instead of going for it all but that's all history .

 

Josh needs to see the field & play a mistake free game or at least keep them to a minimum . GO BILLS !!! 

[Nextmanup]

14 hours ago, gomper said:

Uncle Greg is terrific. I always learn something. 

It's amazing how little "sports talk" out there actually discusses sports in the way Cosell discusses football.

 

Nitty gritty Xs and Os tactical discussion of the game itself.  I think there is a huge market for this stuff out there, but the media outlets don't know it.

 

Instead it's all human interest type story lines.  Listen to the questions the media asks McDermott after games!  It's all emotional/feeling based garbage.  

[Chaos]

12 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Tony Romo actually thought it was Browns fault too. 

Romo has no where near the NFL experience Cosell has.  Who could trust his judgement over Cosells. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

I was listening to the radio yesterday, and they mentioned a talking head (can't remember the name) who analyzed the team and said our offense always looks stuck in mud or words to that effect, but then somehow ends up with 30 points at the end of the game.

 

I.E., it ended up as a compliment of sorts, but the point was that we are NOT getting all out of it that we should be.

 

He pointed the finger at the OC, saying we shouldn't expect him to be as good as Daboll.

 

He felt like Dorsey has done a lot of clearly obviously WRONG things this year.

 

It would be interesting to know what those "clearly obviously WRONG things this year" might be.

 

From what I can see, Dorsey has done a fairly solid job for his first year ever as OC.  He makes use of less trickery-dickery than Daboll did, but that's not always a bad thing - people forget about that trick play lateral to Devin Singletary off to the L from the Pittsburgh 5 yd line, resulting in a fumble OOB (thankfully) and a FG vs a TD.  Trick plays don't always work and they may pose a distraction from executing fundamentals.  Don't forget  about Josh Allen up the middle for no gain on 4th and 1 at the end of the Tennessee loss. 

 

Last regular season, we had 5 one-score games and we lost every one.  Let's not forget that. In 3 of those losses, the Defense gave up 23, 9, and 14 points, which more fingers the offense for being unable to score enough.  This season, we've had 8 one score games, and we've won 5, which is a substantial improvement.

 

I wouldn't want to deny that there are things I believe Dorsey could do differently, and better, but I also think there are ways in which his offense overall executes better than Daboll's did.

 

I think there's a lot of recency bias in comparing Dorsey and Daboll, and, of course, Daboll had 4 years to evolve as an OC.

 

[78thealltimegreat]

29 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Romo has no where near the NFL experience Cosell has.  Who could trust his judgement over Cosells. 

I love Greg he’s one of the best but Romo actually threw for over 34,000 yards with the Dallas Cowboys 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, not sure what happened there between Brown and Josh - maybe a miscommunication, maybe just a bad ball from Josh.  I've watched the play a bunch and Josh throws it to Brown because the safety jumps the flood concept to Knox.  He had better options in the flat, but Josh did have one on one with Brown and he was probably emboldened by the success he had earlier in the game and going back to week 18 with the long ball.  An interception at the goal line wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world if we had just tackled the guy instead of letting him jog free for 60 yards.  But yeah, I'm comfortable pinning that one on Josh.

 

I think it's on both of them.  Putting everything together, I think Brown knew he was supposed to be a clearing route and Knox was the first read, so he paused on his route at what should have been enough time to complete the throw, glanced towards Knox, said "Oh Crap it's Coming to me" and took off again.  Romo thought it was supposed to be a skinny post, Cover1 thought it was supposed to bend out towards the sideline (not sure what that's called).  I think Allen tried to adjust to what he thought Brown was doing, which seemed ambiguous, and screwed it up; if he'd have just thrown it ahead of Brown and towards the sideline, either Brown accelerates and makes a brilliant catch or it falls incomplete, no harm no foul, 2nd down.

 

So screwups on both sides, except the QB is the Man and has the final decision authority - hence Josh claiming it as a bad decision.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Beck Water

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

16 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

But I was told by posters on TBD that it was John Brown's fault. How can they be wrong? 🤔

I think both things can be true…the play isn’t ‘designed’ to go to brown but the wide receivers/josh have plans in place for what they should do when a play goes off script. 
 

looked like brown ran a bit of a double move late that josh wasn’t expecting 

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Romo has no where near the NFL experience Cosell has.  Who could trust his judgement over Cosells. 

 

6 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I love Greg he’s one of the best but Romo actually threw for over 34,000 yards with the Dallas Cowboys 

 

I believe Chaos is being sarcastic.  And he would ordinarily have a point, except that Greg Cosell has been watching NFL film full time since it was actual film on reels, and Romo was literally in diapers.

 

I don't think what they say contradicts, actually.  Looking at the whole play, it does appear that the first read was to Knox and that on 1st down, the play design would be to take the checkdown if Knox wasn't open and only an aggressive QB with a big arm would try to hit the clearing route (Romo passed for 34,000 yds, putting him in that aggressive bin himself).  And Romo is correct - Brown did pause on his route, which is consistent with knowing he's not the receiver the play is designed for and not wanting to wear himself out.   Any former QB is going to be inclined to place blame more towards the receiver than to the QB, but the ball wasn't placed where only a receiver running full-out would get it.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I was listening to the radio yesterday, and they mentioned a talking head (can't remember the name) who analyzed the team and said our offense always looks stuck in mud or words to that effect, but then somehow ends up with 30 points at the end of the game.

 

I.E., it ended up as a compliment of sorts, but the point was that we are NOT getting all out of it that we should be.

 

He pointed the finger at the OC, saying we shouldn't expect him to be as good as Daboll.

 

He felt like Dorsey has done a lot of clearly obviously WRONG things this year.

 

 

Still a false narrative imo…they are the best third down team in the league.  That is the opposite of stuck in the mud.  
 

team looked actually stuck in the mud much more often with Daboll as OC

[DuckyBoys]

they have been more consistent this season  Maybe the Jets games the offense really bogged down mostly on the O line getting beat constantly by the Jets superior D line.  I think at times the Bills make it look so easy w big plays we expect that all game every week.

[MJS]

17 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

But I was told by posters on TBD that it was John Brown's fault. How can they be wrong? 🤔

They said that on the broadcast too. Everyone took that comment and ran with it. At best, though, Brown would have been able to break up the pass for an incompletion. The defender was always in good position, and Brown is a smaller receiver, so I always thought it was more on Allen than Brown. John Brown is not a guy to throw 50/50 balls too. You throw it to him after he smokes the defender and he is open.

[Beck Water]

40 minutes ago, MJS said:

They said that on the broadcast too. Everyone took that comment and ran with it. At best, though, Brown would have been able to break up the pass for an incompletion. The defender was always in good position, and Brown is a smaller receiver, so I always thought it was more on Allen than Brown. John Brown is not a guy to throw 50/50 balls too. You throw it to him after he smokes the defender and he is open.

 

In 2019 before we got Diggs, Allen used to throw 50/50 balls to Brown and he defended them as needed.  Overall, of course, I agree with you.

 

I could be wrong, but even with Allen's cannon of an arm, I think those deep balls have to be thrown before the defender is necessarily "smoked", meaning if there's confusion about exactly how the route is being run, disaster can ensure.

[HappyDays]

51 minutes ago, MJS said:

John Brown is not a guy to throw 50/50 balls too. You throw it to him after he smokes the defender and he is open.

 

What Allen and all QBs are actually doing is reading the leverage of the defender and since they know where the WR's route is going they decide if the WR is going to be open by the time the ball gets there. Waiting for the WR to be open before throwing is college ball. Diggs wasn't open when Allen threw him a TD against the Patriots two weeks ago, but the leverage of the CB told him Diggs was going to have a step. So in this case I believe that Allen saw the safety come towards Knox which left Brown in one on one coverage against Howard with good leverage if he continued his route the way that Allen expected. He was not throwing a 50/50 ball.

[AlfaBill]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

Romo has no where near the NFL experience Cosell has.  Who could trust his judgement over Cosells. 

I don’t see how that is on Brown aside from not making an attempt to break up the interception? Josh threw it short it seems to me. It’s ok if Josh makes a mistake or two now and again

Edited January 21, 2023 by AlfaBill

[Beck Water]

FWIW cross-posting the Dan Orlovsky clip posted in the game week thread

 

 

He goes into the John Brown INT, pointing out that the Dolphins successfully took away the flood concept on 1st down and left Josh with the deep shot to Brown or the checkdown.  I'm a little puzzled because I actually think Josh had a better shot to Morris on the short, flat route than to Singletary (who Orlovsky identifies as the alternative); there were bodies in the way to Singletary, making it likely IMO that throw gets tipped at the line or, if Josh threw it with an arc but it wasn't just right, defenders could make a play.  I thought Josh had a good passing lane to Morris and could have thrown at an angle where it's Morris or no one.  But obviously Orlovsky's overall point is clear - the Dolphins said "you get the deep shot, or the checkdown, and we know you're constitutionally disinterested in the checkdown."

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Beck Water