Thoughts on the pass defense?

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

I find the whole strategy in the secondary to be odd to start. Soft zone with a five yard cushion hoping that they sack the QB so there is no pass? Without our best edge rusher?  Whats even odder is the frequency of times that the receivers are wide open, the db doesnt turn around to locate the ball, the db doesnt try to break up the pass or separate the receiver from the ball or the db arrives and doesnt make the tackle.  Much of this is on the players themselves but Frazier isnt adjusting to the injuries or the realities of this defense at the moment and its really hurting us. Many of these games have been uncomfortably close only because of huge flaw.  Frazier should be mixing things up with man defense here and there to throw the offenses off at the very least. Right now its way too easy to go against this defense with all the injuries and 2nd and 3rd string talent starting.

 

I mean adjust is EXACTLY what he did yesterday. They ran some more man in the second half. They did mix coverages up more and they got a beat on what the Pats were trying to do. In the second half Mac was 13/24 for 126 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs. 

 

The stats show consistently throughout the season that the Bills do give up fewer yards and fewer points as games go on. So you might find the strategy confusing and think they don't adjust.... but your eyes are lying to you. 

[Ga boy]

10 hours ago, sven233 said:

Unfortunately, this is just the same Fraizer defense that we have been seeing since he got here.  Play a soft zone making sure you don't get beat over the top.  It makes for long, sustained drives but in the end, the screws tend to tighten a bit and the hope is to hold teams to 3 and not give up TDs. 

 

The thing is, it works fairly well against teams that don't have a good QB or weapons.  This is why over the course of a season, the stats look pretty good and we are always ranked high.  Where is becomes a major problem is when you go against better QBs and WRs that know how to get open and find the weak spots.  And where do you find these teams?  In the Playoffs, of course.  That is why it is so frustrating every year to go into the Playoffs against teams like the Chiefs knowing that no matter where the defense ranked during the season, that we know we will have to score 35+ to even have a chance because the defense can't get away with this soft coverage it played all season.  It's why 13 seconds happens.  It is infuriating and I expect nothing different this post season.

 

It also doesn't help to have the guy you brought into be your closer and try to shorten the time the QB has in the pocket go down, one of your stud safeties go out for the season at the very beginning of the year while the other one is being held together with duct tape at this point, and have your former top 3 CB still recovering from a devastating injury. 

Yea it looks like what’s left of our defense is not as good as last year’s.  BUT, and it’s a big but, maybe, our better running game will keep the other teams offense off the field, especially if Cook gets 15+ opportunities.  And of course, our D stays rested. 

[Wayne Cubed]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nor do I. That is what I said. The Bills will have to score and on defense they will have to be opportunistic, get their hands on footballs and take the ball away. They are not going to keep Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert... probably even Miami if Tua is healthy to 20 points. The Bills will need to score 30 plus in each game I think. 

 

The thing about this is, the Chiefs, Chargers and Bengals are thinking the same thing. Those aren't elite defense on those teams. They each have pieces, much like the Bills, and have the ability to win plays but ultimately they are looking at their offenses and QBs to blow teams away.

 

As opposed to the 49ers, who are absolutely looking to their defense to keep them in games.

 

The Bills this season were kept under 20 points once. One time. And it took a ridiculously hot game in Miami for it to happen. The reality is for most defenses you aren't going to keep this Bills offense under 20. Slow it down a bit, sure, but you better be preopared to put up points against this team.

[colin]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

Yes, the 3 INT’s clearly showed that.

 

those were franchise int's tho, just beauties 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

11 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

His bend but don't break approach is what pisses me off. 49ers put out a blueprint on how to shut the Dolphins offense down and he refuses to use it

SF rushed 4 and played quarters off/2 deep all game and it worked for them.  Literally more like the Leslie Frazier defense you are criticizing than Leslie Frazier’s actual defense 😂

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, ClemsonBills said:

We played very soft coverage today. Really hoping Leslie gets creative in the playoffs

Soft coverage is putting it mildly. It almost seems like they're just waiting for the receivers to catch the ball and then tackling.  Having 7 guys in coverage and then seeing receivers catch the ball with a defender barely within 5 yards happens far too often.

[MphsBillsfan]

Bills secondary is sus, 2 all pros or not they  are not beating Cincy or KC with that hot garbage.

[JerseyBills]

Credit to NE on the play actions. Romo said they don't run much PA so maybe that caught em off guard.

 

Overall the defense gets a pass from me this week.  I'm not sure how much practice they got in and how focused they could have been before getting the good news about Damar

 

If Tua plays I'm definitely going to be a bit concerned 

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

It's the defense you prefer these days. So many good and young QBs AFC. Blitz they'll destroy you for TD. It's not just Bills lots of team's following this type of defense.

I'd rather take the chance with the blitz and either get the sack or force the bad throw.  Allowing the QB to sit back there with no pressure and find holes in the zone makes no sense to me and never has.  Will you get burned by the blitz sometimes?  Sure. That's how it goes, but when team's go on these long drives, that's also time Josh isn't on the field.  They showed the stat yesterday that on the Pats scoring drives Jones was 17/17 with 3 TDs.  Those were mainly with us rushing 4 and dropping 7 in coverage.

 

I think we were pretty effective with our blitzing yesterday when we did and I hope to see it more.

[Billsfan1972]

Nice to see interceptions and what in two cases was the ball bouncing the Bills direction.  The other was just a bad pass.  

 

NE receivers were pretty open (as opposed to Bills) and they hung 23 on the Bills (with three TO's).

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 minutes ago, MphsBillsfan said:

Bills secondary is sus, 2 all pros or not they  are not beating Cincy or KC with that hot garbage.

They literally beat kc with even worse players in the secondary 😂

[All_Pro_Bills]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean adjust is EXACTLY what he did yesterday. They ran some more man in the second half. They did mix coverages up more and they got a beat on what the Pats were trying to do. In the second half Mac was 13/24 for 126 yards, 1 TD and 3 INTs. 

 

The stats show consistently throughout the season that the Bills do give up fewer yards and fewer points as games go on. So you might find the strategy confusing and think they don't adjust.... but your eyes are lying to you. 

But I think a lot of that late game success is due to the opponent's QB needing to take more risks because the Bills offense is putting points up and it comes down to playing against the 4th quarter clock, figuring the number of potential possessions left, and the need to score 2+ times in order to win the game.  

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

They literally beat kc with even worse players in the secondary 😂

We also had Von then, who was getting pressure on Mahomes.  Lack of a pass rush puts even more pressure on the secondary.  That's why I'm in favor of blitzing more often.

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Nice to see interceptions and what in two cases was the ball bouncing the Bills direction.  The other was just a bad pass.  

 

NE receivers were pretty open (as opposed to Bills) and they hung 23 on the Bills (with three TO's).

 

It’s exactly as I said. The Bills are betting on the assumption that over the course of the game the opposing QB isn’t going to throw a perfect pass every time. That’s especially true with Mac Jones. The Pats receivers made him look even better than he is yesterday. Against better QBs the Bills defensive strategy will be different.

[JerseyBills]

11 hours ago, Putin said:

We made Mac Jones look like a franchise QB today what else is there to say ? 

Eh. He played good but 26/40 243 3td/3int isn't exactly franchise material. Looked like the Bills were willing to play soft coverage in hopes Mac would make mistakes and it paid off

 

Allen who many said had a sub par game went 19/31 254 3td/1int

 

If you can force Mac to throw 40 times, you gotta good chance at a W

 

Allen showed they're levels in the last 20 minutes 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

But I think a lot of that late game success is due to the opponent's QB needing to take more risks because the Bills offense is putting points up and it comes down to playing against the 4th quarter clock, figuring the number of potential possessions left, and the need to score 2+ times in order to win the game.  

 

Of course there are multiple factors. But it isn't just 4th Quarter. The numbers are consistent that the Bills do better on defense as the game goes on. Fans have this image of Leslie Frazier as a DC who just rolls out one thing all game and it just isn't true. They are a good adjustments team. Unfortunately a lot of fans don't really understand what they are watching so these narratives gather momentum even when inaccurate. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s exactly as I said. The Bills are betting on the assumption that over the course of the game the opposing QB isn’t going to throw a perfect pass every time. That’s especially true with Mac Jones. The Pats receivers made him look even better than he is yesterday. Against better QBs the Bills defensive strategy will be different.

Better be, but I haven't seen that of late.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

We also had Von then, who was getting pressure on Mahomes.  Lack of a pass rush puts even more pressure on the secondary.  That's why I'm in favor of blitzing more often.

 

Huge no to blitzing more often. There have been games this year - Minnesota was one - where were constantly burned on the blitz. 

[Solomon Grundy]

18 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

SF rushed 4 and played quarters off/2 deep all game and it worked for them.  Literally more like the Leslie Frazier defense you are criticizing than Leslie Frazier’s actual defense 😂

49ers DIDN'T let their receivers run free off the line of scrimmage. Disrupted their timing. 

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

You are so right. Epenesa/Basham are truly JAGs. Epenesa is a one trick pony. I've never seen him turn speed into power. No pass rush moves whatsoever. Rousseau was a beast this afternoon. Hopefully Shaq has another game like he had against Dolphins in Buffalo

AJE is just frustrating to watch.  He comes flying off the edge, tries to come around the corner and is then just pushed out of the play by the Tackle. Wash, rinse, repeat.  Von is able to get around the edge and then turn it back up inside towards the QB and get real pressure.  As you said, it's a clear lack of power since he's taken out of the play as soon as he tries to turn the corner towards the QB.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Billz4ever

[BeastMaster]

I am being completely realistic when I say that I believe that Cincy was going to beat the brakes off of us in the game Hamlin went down in, and I don't think much will be different if we play them in the divisional round in Orchard Park.

 

 

Epenesa will keep running by the QB...rendering our pass rush useless, while Burrow will find open receivers and hit tight windows.

 

 

It will take an incredible offensive performance to beat Cincy or KC. Possible, but we haven't seen this offense operate that effectively in quite some time

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Billz4ever]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Huge no to blitzing more often. There have been games this year - Minnesota was one - where were constantly burned on the blitz. 

Jones 17/17,  3 TDs on their scoring drives, which were primarily against 4 rushing and 7 in coverage. 

 

Jones started making mistakes when we were bringing an extra rusher or two.

[FLFan]

Lack of consistent pressure today was an issue and left Jones with way too much time which made the pass defense appear poor. There  were times he was standing there for 5 seconds and more with no pressure at all.  Also, Marlow looked lost out there.  it was a huge problem.  Yet despite this, the defense recorded 3 interceptions and held them to under 250 yards passing.  we won by two touchdowns.

 

i expect with a full week of preparations and less of a running on pure emotion approach, The Bills D will be just fine, although replacing Hamlin does concern me.  

[nucci]

12 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

The number of (1) easy, stress-free completions and (2) receivers running open downfield, is alarming, to say the least.

 

I've never been a big fan of Frazier's style of defense, but even his staunchest defenders have to admit that the defense has played poorly of late.

 

Will Frazier be able to right the ship before next weekend?

Every teams gets open on us yet we struggle to get receivers open. You're right, it's too easy for offenses at times against us

[jamiezzz]

I'm hoping Frazier gets a Head coaching gig.  Unlikely, but I would love some younger, aggressive, creative DC with this group. 

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

I am being completely realistic when I say that I believe that Cincy was going to beat the brakes off of us in the game Hamlin went down in, and I don't think much will be different if we play them in the divisional round in Orchard Park.

 

 

Epenesa will keep running by the QB...rendering our pass rush useless, while Burrow will find open receivers and hit tight windows.

 

 

It will take an incredible offensive performance to beat Cincy or KC. Possible, but we haven't seen this offense operate that effectively in quite some time

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we play the typical rush 4 and drop 7, I think Burrow and Mahomes will pick us apart all game long.  When we played KC last, we had Von, who was harassing Mahomes much of the game.  We just don't have that with AJE and Basham. We are going to need to blitz to get pressure. If we don't, we are deciding we are OK with them marching down the field.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Billz4ever

[damj]

Concerned. Very concerned.

 

We were playing soft and letting them catch everything underneath. Very few contested catches

[Billz4ever]

18 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

49ers DIDN'T let their receivers run free off the line of scrimmage. Disrupted their timing. 

That's another thing I'll never understand about Frazier's D.  If we are often in the vanilla Cover 2 with the 2 deep safties, why would you not jam the receivers at the line?  Even if a receiver does manage to put a move on the DB and get some separation, you have the safety help over the top.  It's seems like they aren't taking advantage of what the defensive scheme allows you to do.

 

Especially against play action and routes highly dependent on timing like NE was doing, messing up that timing should be the obvious goal.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Billz4ever

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

I think it's concerning. I have a really hard time seeing us beat the Bengals or Chiefs if our DEF plays like that. 

[zow2]

15 minutes ago, damj said:

Concerned. Very concerned.

 

We were playing soft and letting them catch everything underneath. Very few contested catches

 

We are one of the few defenses that allowed Zach Wilson and even Tua (in recent games) to look solid.  So this defense clearly is designed to play off the receivers, let them catch it and limit the damage,,, then get a timely INT or something... allow a long drive to get sabotaged by a fumble, penalty or sack.  

[Mafioso]

12 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Today it was unacceptable
 

But I don’t know if that’s a lack of talent so much as it is just the team being mentally spent this week

 

I said it earlier, it looked to me like they came out, super hyped, and then leveled off and went flat

 

Mac Jones is not as good as he looked today

Did Mac Jones really look that good?  Other than the TD pass in the 4th Quarter, he was pretty much throwing 8 yard passes or less.   They certainly didn't trust him to make any big throws down the field.

[BBills_88]

 

I do not like the bailing technique

The lack of ball awareness is atrocious.

Can we get a few 6'2 + DB's to go with the more Athletic WR's that are in the league. 

 

 

[Billz4ever]

12 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

In defense of the pass rush, I’m going to argue that oline we saw today was one of the 3 best we’ve seen all year.  
 

Did Andrews play against us the first game?

 

And they were playing for Slater, who I think is retiring.  
 

The Dolphins oline with Armstead is decent.  Without him it’s below average.  
 

The Bengals lost Kappa today - meaning the right side of their oline is out.

 

 

 

As has been the case with this D for years, good olines are our kryptonite.  I don’t think we’ll see one as good as today’s in the playoffs.  The Chiefs is the best - but they aren’t beating the Chargers. 

Many think Miami should be an easy win. I very much disagree.  They played us tough just a few weeks ago, and they were also able to run on us in that game.  

[Drew21PA]

12 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

His bend but don't break approach is what pisses me off. 49ers put out a blueprint on how to shut the Dolphins offense down and he refuses to use it

Yes!  FINALLY someone puti t the way I wanted to!

 

I dont get why either - blueprint was copied by the Chargers - whom i dont feel is on the same page defensively as we are - they have good pieces, but we are obviously better - yet we dont adopt it. 

 

Stubborness of either McD or Frazier i cant figure out.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

29 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

49ers DIDN'T let their receivers run free off the line of scrimmage. Disrupted their timing. 

They did…are you thinking of the chargers?  Or are you assuming because the 49ers defense played well against Miami that they must’ve played a lot of press coverage? 
 

49ers played it exactly the same way as what Leslie Frazier is criticized around here for.  

[Drew21PA]

12 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Here's the thing- by FAR the best game the Dolphins had offensively during their losing streak (you can even include today), was against the Bills.  Brissett looked really good against the Bills too.  

Well, i thnk that is becaase they were overly hyped and have tape on us too - BUT i do feel our defensive philosphy is a bit stubborn.

[Charles Romes]

With a healthy Von we just line up and win as the best team in football. Now we need good fortune to take home the Lombardi. What is really mind numbing is that two of our 5 best players, Von and Tre, went down on that horrendous turf the players are demanding be abolished. Can you imagine this team with a healthy Von and Tre. 

[Big Turk]

Hyde was a huge loss for us. Obvious he was the deep center fielder that took lots of plays away and forced throws into tight windows.

[GoBills808]

It's above average which is a step down from seasons past

 

mostly due to injury

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

44 minutes ago, nucci said:

Every teams gets open on us yet we struggle to get receivers open. You're right, it's too easy for offenses at times against us

 

Yep - man defenses tend to have lower comp% numbers and sometimes yardage too.  

 

But then you have 1x1 deep balls to worry about, and you tend to get fewer takeaways.