Thoughts on the pass defense?

[timekills17]

This defense is built on playing the teams we have to beat, and how our offense is designed.

If our offense is playing anywhere near their potential, they can score quickly. So another quick-strike offense is the most likely to cause us challenge.

If we give up time-consuming short/medium passes and runs - that's fine. Even if occasionally (~45% of the time) when they get to the red zone they score a TD. Because it usually took a long time to get there.

Tthe expectation - and the reality across the past three seasons - is that our offense will return fire, but faster.

That also means they take a few risks across the middle to try and make a turn-over, because they can afford to let the play be executed.

 

When they get into the red zone, they take less risks, and play tighter rather than taking guesses on plays vs. formation and scheme they've seen.

We see it in the results of the red zone defense. Not to mention our defense is lateral quickness rather than straight-line speed so as the field length compresses it plays into their hands.

 

It's frustrating watching teams make play after play, especially on 3rd and 7+. But if you understand that is how the defense is designed, it is a bit less stressful. You can actually get excited waiting for either the turnover, or the move into the Bills' side of the field past the 30-yard line - because then you know the heat is on, and it's playing into the defense's strength.

 

This isn't homerish; look at the long term results and play style rather than any single play. The risk is a player who can get that intermediate play and quickly - and repeatedly - turn it into TDs, especially on a day when our offense isn't playing well. But every team has to play a risk vs. reward game in the NFL.*

 

 

 

*It's the reason the playoffs often look so different. A scheme that works 75% of the time - including keeping players fresh and healthy - is successful across a season, but might not be in any one game. Teams talk "one game seasons" and players have to play that way, but coaches have to play the long game...

Until the playoffs.

Edited January 9 by timekills17

[GunnerBill]

The first half the Pats really took advantage of the communication issues in the secondary. They ran a lot of switch combination routes that in zone defense you have to communicate well and pass off and the Bills were struggling. A number of those wide open plays were because you had two defenders having taken the same guy. Some of that is them now being down to their 6th safety pairing of the year. The Bills made an adjustment 2nd half and simplified it went to a bit more man. It limited the wide open receivers. Yes Devante Parker had a big touchdown catch but Elam had really good coverage there he just didn't get his head around in time. The issue will be how well they think Tre can stand up to that. 

 

For all the tedious hand wringing about the scheme and Leslie Frazier in this thread.... that was only the 3rd time all season that the Bills had allowed a team to score above their seasonal average. They finished 6th in ypg and 2nd in ppg giving up fewer than 18 points per game in the NFL in 2022. Theu were the 2nd best redzone defense in the league and (despite struggling for periods) 7th best on 3rd down. This despite losing Micah Hyde and Von Miller for the year. Not having Tre White at all for over half the season and then having a shadow of his former self. Oh and throw in injuries to Edmunds, Milano, Groot, Poyer and Oliver that have cost them time. Honestly to do anything other than tip your cap to the defensive staff for putting that season together in the circumstances is utterly ridiculous.

 

Will the Bills have to score in the playoffs to win given the state of the secondary at the moment? Chances are they will. But people need to take a moment to really consider where things stand. I think the D will have to be opportunistic and take its chances to make big plays and generate turnovers. 

 

1 hour ago, timekills17 said:

But if you understand that is how the defense is designed, it is a bit less stressful.

 

100%. There are people on this board who have watched the Bills the past 6 seasons and still don't understand what the Bills are trying to do. 

Edited January 9 by GunnerBill

[Donuts and Doritos]

I'd say, what pass defense? But they did have 3 picks. Still left guys too wide open. Better clean it up.

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

His bend but don't break approach is what pisses me off. 49ers put out a blueprint on how to shut the Dolphins offense down and he refuses to use it

The Chargers followed the plan with many of it's back up players. It worked very well. 

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Disagree that Von's absence has some sort of major impact on the pass rush

 

He almost always lines up way outside on the D left side, and goes one-on-one against the right tackle...who man handles him nicely out of the way at which point Von quits on the play.  He does this many times per game...for the limited plays that he is actually on the field (he misses LOTS of plays).  Then he'll get a pressure or maybe a sack once and everyone says "Wow, Von Miller!  What an impact on the game!"

 

He then goes back to obscurity.

 

He's not like Bruce Smith routinely drawing double teams and making all the other D-llnemen better because of him.

 

 

 

Partly I agree. He is no Bruce Smith. He does go too wide often. However, he demands attention, often was double teamed, and absolutely opened up things for others to be successful. Not to mention he does come up with huge plays when the game is on the line. His loss is pretty big.  

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yes, I remember the plays to Hunter Henry the most.

 

He’s slow, but over the middle he was constantly open.

 

Marlowe was a mess today.

 

 

Marlowe wasn't very good. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

The Chargers followed the plan with many of it's back up players. It worked very well. 

 

The Chargers and the 49ers did not play the same defense against the Dolphins. This incorrect narrative needs to die. The Chargers played a very specific style of D in a one off gameplan - and give then crdit it confused Miami. 

 

The 49ers schematically didn't do a lot different to what the Bills did. They just still have their elite edge rusher and secondary players and they executed better. It was a lot of cover 2 and quarters on the backened, they dropped Fred Warner a lot in Tampa 2 type looks and he dominated the middle of the field and it was,

almost entirely 4 man rush. They just executed better. 

[newcam2012]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The first half the Pats really took advantage of the communication issues in the secondary. They ran a lot of switch combination routes that in zone defense you have to communicate well and pass off and the Bills were struggling. A number of those wide open plays were because you had two defenders having taken the same guy. Some of that is them now being down to their 6th safety pairing of the year. The Bills made an adjustment 2nd half and simplified it went to a bit more man. It limited the wide open receivers. Yes Devante Parker had a big touchdown catch but Elam had really good coverage there he just didn't get his head around in time. The issue will be how well they think Tre can stand up to that. 

 

For all the tedious hand wringing about the scheme and Leslie Frazier in this thread.... that was only the 3rd time all season that the Bills had allowed a team to score above their seasonal average. They finished 6th in ypg and 2nd in ppg giving up fewer than 18 points per game in the NFL in 2022. Theu were the 2nd best redzone defense in the league and (despite struggling for periods) 7th best on 3rd down. This despite losing Micah Hyde and Von Miller for the year. Not having Tre White at all for over half the season and then having a shadow of his former self. Oh and throw in injuries to Edmunds, Milano, Groot, Poyer and Oliver that have cost them time. Honestly to do anything other than tip your cap to the defensive staff for putting that season together in the circumstances is utterly ridiculous.

 

Will the Bills have to score in the playoffs to win given the state of the secondary at the moment? Chances are they will. But people need to take a moment to really consider where things stand. I think the D will have to be opportunistic and take its chances to make big plays and generate turnovers. 

 

 

100%. There are people on this board who have watched the Bills the past 6 seasons and still don't understand what the Bills are trying to do. 

I agree with your take. However, it sounds as like you are validating the point that the Bills secondary is vulnerable and very beatable due to injuries and a half speeded Tre. With that said, I believe you are validating the scheme of the the Fraizer defense. Which I absolutely agree with. Frazier is really the fall guy here. However, look at what he is working with. Elam is still learning, Hyde out, Tre playing on one leg, Poyer banged up, Hamlin out, etc...The secondary is a shell of its self. I don't see a reasonable path on how this secondary stops the likes of a Burrow, Mahomes, or perhaps Herbert.

[LyndonvilleBill]

7 hours ago, Putin said:

We made Mac Jones look like a franchise QB today what else is there to say ? 

4D chess. We don't want them to change QB'S. 😁

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I agree with your take. However, it sounds as like you are validating the point that the Bills secondary is vulnerable and very beatable due to injuries and a half speeded Tre. With that said, I believe you are validating the scheme of the the Fraizer defense. Which I absolutely agree with. Frazier is really the fall guy here. However, look at what he is working with. Elam is still learning, Hyde out, Tre playing on one leg, Poyer banged up, Hamlin out, etc...The secondary is a shell of its self. I don't see a reasonable path on how this secondary stops the likes of a Burrow, Mahomes, or perhaps Herbert.

 

Nor do I. That is what I said. The Bills will have to score and on defense they will have to be opportunistic, get their hands on footballs and take the ball away. They are not going to keep Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert... probably even Miami if Tua is healthy to 20 points. The Bills will need to score 30 plus in each game I think. 

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The Chargers and the 49ers did not play the same defense against the Dolphins. This incorrect narrative needs to die. The Chargers played a very specific style of D in a one off gameplan - and give then crdit it confused Miami. 

 

The 49ers schematically didn't do a lot different to what the Bills did. They just still have their elite edge rusher and secondary players and they executed better. It was a lot of cover 2 and quarters on the backened, they dropped Fred Warner a lot in Tampa 2 type looks and he dominated the middle of the field and it was,

almost entirely 4 man rush. They just executed better. 

I stand corrected. However, the Bills D was pretty ineffective a few weeks ago vs the Dolphins. The Dolphins clearly controlled the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. Running almost at will without their best RB. The Bills D hasn't been exactly stellar since then. They are down Hamlin who I believe is the Bills leading tackler. Imho, this D is VERY beatable as evidenced by a pretty effective poor QB Jones yesterday. The Pats are arguably one of the worst offenses in the league. Truthfully, their offense didn't lose them the game. Their special teams play did.

 

We saw a small sample of this D on Monday night vs the Bengals. A legit offense with a bona fide QB. The Bills were getting shredded at will. I'm not confident the current state of the Bills can stop them. Imho, the Bills will have to win with Allen leading the way. Josh is more than capable of doing it. 

Edited January 9 by newcam2012

[Solomon Grundy]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The 49ers didn't shut them down. The Dolphins had wide open receivers all over the field that Tua flat out missed.

Why was he missing them? Tyreek Hill said he was "the most accurate QB in the league". 

[Matt_In_NH]

Need Oliver and Phillips to step up for the playoffs.  

[Billsfan1972]

Compare that to how Josh needs to work to make completions.  

 

How many easy completions that weren't check downs did Josh have?

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

 

32 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Compare that to how Josh needs to work to make completions.  

 

How many easy completions that weren't check downs did Josh have?

 

 

Which begs the question how do the Bills opponents DB's glue themselves to our receivers consistently?  Is it scheme or coaching or skill? 

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

 

Which begs the question how do the Bills opponents DB's glue themselves to our receivers consistently?  Is it scheme or coaching or skill? 

Wish someone could answer.  BTW I will commend Brown on making a nice catch.  Wasn't ridiculously hard, but one of the few the Bills have made this year.

[SoCal Deek]

The Bills pass defense is indeed frustrating to watch but I’ve come to learn that it’s based on the bet that the other team’s QB isn’t going to be perfect the entire drive, and definitely not the entire game. We saw that yesterday in real time. Mac was hitting everything early on but as the game wore on the passes got less and less accurate and the final two INTs were perfect examples of that. What’ll be interesting to watch for is how well that strategy holds up against Joe Burrow.

[Livinginthepast]

I find the whole strategy in the secondary to be odd to start. Soft zone with a five yard cushion hoping that they sack the QB so there is no pass? Without our best edge rusher?  Whats even odder is the frequency of times that the receivers are wide open, the db doesnt turn around to locate the ball, the db doesnt try to break up the pass or separate the receiver from the ball or the db arrives and doesnt make the tackle.  Much of this is on the players themselves but Frazier isnt adjusting to the injuries or the realities of this defense at the moment and its really hurting us. Many of these games have been uncomfortably close only because of huge flaw.  Frazier should be mixing things up with man defense here and there to throw the offenses off at the very least. Right now its way too easy to go against this defense with all the injuries and 2nd and 3rd string talent starting.

[BillsFan130]

10 hours ago, ClemsonBills said:

We played very soft coverage today. Really hoping Leslie gets creative in the playoffs

Soft against Mac Jones and those mediocre weapons as well.

Can’t even imagine how soft he would play play against Burrow/Mahomes 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

I find the whole strategy in the secondary to be odd to start. Soft zone with a five yard cushion hoping that they sack the QB so there is no pass? Without our best edge rusher?  Whats even odder is the frequency of times that the receivers are wide open, the db doesnt turn around to locate the ball, the db doesnt try to break up the pass or separate the receiver from the ball or the db arrives and doesnt make the tackle.  Much of this is on the players themselves but Frazier isnt adjusting to the injuries or the realities of this defense at the moment and its really hurting us. Many of these games have been uncomfortably close only because of huge flaw.  Frazier should be mixing things up with man defense here and there to throw the offenses off at the very least. Right now its way too easy to go against this defense with all the injuries and 2nd and 3rd string talent starting.

See my post right above yours. I don’t think it’s about hoping the pass rush gets there. I think the Bills are simply betting on the inherent inaccuracy of the opponent’s QBs….and to this point, they’ve been right.

[Real McNasty]

11 hours ago, Putin said:

We made Mac Jones look like a franchise QB today what else is there to say ? 

On the opposing end.

 

Less than 300 yds passing and 3 ints is not franchise. People are freaking out overall and I do somewhat understand. Adjustments are being made on the D side of the ball only giving up 9pts in the 2nd half to our 21.

 

Edited January 9 by Real McNasty