Did we just teach the NFL how to defend against KC?

[wjag]

3 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

By your logic, then KC Defense showed how to stop the Bills O.  Truth is that was a hell of a game and it felt like a playoff game, you won because you made fewer mistakes.. (like throwing an INT in the end zone) 

 

I think we all know the achilles heel of the Bills is a stout DLINE going up against the Bills OLINE.  Chris Jones, Frank Clark and Bolden all played really well and caused trouble.  Chiefs get back Willie Gay starting this week which adds some additional potency to their rush.

[Bills2022]

We taught the NFL nothing except you need a Von Miller and Matt Milano to stop Mahomes.  Those guys don't grow on trees. 

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

If it was that easy, every team would be shutting down/ limiting Kielce. It’s just not. That’s why he’s a great TE. 

this is spot on.

[Logic]

This article, which is behind a paywall, does a great job detailing the defensive strategy, too. There are accompanying pictures that I can't get to post correctly here, but Athletic subscribers may want to give it a read.

https://theathletic.com/3700790/2022/10/18/bills-chiefs-defense-patrick-mahomes/

 

On the [game deciding] next play, Frazier called the same rush, but this time with coverage designed to “trap” Mahomes.

 

Again, Miller rushed inside and Milano dropped to spy.

Before Mahomes even moved, Milano was already anticipating Miller would do his job and force Mahomes to break to his right.

The Bills played a combo coverage with Cover 2 zone to the three-receiver side and 2-man (man-to-man with a deep hash safety) to the weak side.

As Mahomes broke to his right, he thought the defense was in 2-man, meaning he would have receiver Skyy Moore running open on a shallow route across the field because there is no inside help in 2-man. However, on the other side, nickel corner Taron Johnson was in zone coverage and had his eyes on Mahomes.

Milano triggered and might have impeded Mahomes’ vision. Johnson jumped the pass for the game-clinching interception.

In last year’s divisional-round playoff game between these two teams, both offenses looked unstoppable. This season, with Miller leading the Buffalo pass rush, the Bills proved that their defense can stop one of the league’s most dangerous offenses on the road.

The next time these two teams meet, possibly in the playoffs, Andy Reid and the Chiefs will likely have more effective answers for Buffalo’s spy games. It’ll be up to Frazier to anticipate those answers and have counters to the counters.

 

[gobills404]

No. This was about great players making big plays in big moments, not the defensive game plan. KC was still able to march right down the field on most of their drives.

[The Jokeman]

34 minutes ago, Mark92 said:

Von is a beast.  2 sacks against Mahomes and the Chefs actually have a good o line.  His getting pressure also ran Mahomes into situations where the rest of D line could get to him.  He doesn't have to rush to change the game.

if you look at Chiefs forums they hate their OTs, Example Orlando Brown grades a 61.3 from PFF Dion Dawkins rates a 72.9. Andrew Wylie grades a 62 but given up 6 sacks and Spencer Brown grades a 61.9 and David Quessenberry a 61.3 but only gave up 3 sacks this season. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by The Jokeman

[Buffalo Boy]

37 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Yup-  sign Von Miller

   That’s the National narrative. It certainly hold a large degree of truth but I still think it’s simplistic.

   That was 11 guys playing together coached by a coach who pulled out all the stops and threw a ton of different coverages at Mahomes.

    The low point for me was Mor, Larry and Curly tackling each other and allowing the long TD.

    Other than that, we made them earn everything and clearly rattled Mahomes into some panic decisions.

   

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   That’s the National narrative. It certainly hold a large degree of truth but I still think it’s simplistic.

   That was 11 guys playing together coached by a coach who pulled out all the stops and threw a ton of different coverages at Mahomes.

    The low point for me was Mor, Larry and Curly tackling each other and allowing the long TD.

    Other than that, we made them earn everything and clearly rattled Mahomes into some panic decisions.

   

Von is a great story but I think Daquan Jones/Jordan Phillips have been as good as additions on the D-line as he's helped our run D to move up to 1st in the league from 13th. 

[wjag]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    The low point for me was Mor, Larry and Curly tackling each other and allowing the long TD.

    Other than that, we made them earn everything and clearly rattled Mahomes into some panic decisions.

   

 

As I recall, one Bills defender fell down trying to make the tackle and right in the path of a chaser who tripped.  The third guy had to go around and lost time and momentum. Credit JuJu for avoiding the wreck.  Yeah I agreed it did look a bit like the Keystone Kops on that play.

[US Egg]

If a team has personnel on their ‘D’ similar to the Bills, then maybe, some teams might learn something.

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Von is a great story but I think Daquan Jones/Jordan Phillips have been as good as additions on the D-line as he's helped our run D to move up to 1st in the league from 13th. 

 

Absolutely.  Its why our run defense is good without stacking the box.

[Nextmanup]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   That’s the National narrative. It certainly hold a large degree of truth but I still think it’s simplistic.

   That was 11 guys playing together coached by a coach who pulled out all the stops and threw a ton of different coverages at Mahomes.

    The low point for me was Mor, Larry and Curly tackling each other and allowing the long TD.

    Other than that, we made them earn everything and clearly rattled Mahomes into some panic decisions.

   

I'm already sick of the idea that Von Miller somehow imprinted his name all over the game and took it over.

 

He was not much of a factor for most of the game, as is always the case for big name edge rushers.

 

Then he gets a sack and boom, he's a superstar.

 

He made several big plays at big moments, and did lots of nothing for long stretches....maybe that's good enough.

 

And let's not forget all those defensive snaps when he isn't even on the field.

[NewEra]

49 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   That’s the National narrative. It certainly hold a large degree of truth but I still think it’s simplistic.

   That was 11 guys playing together coached by a coach who pulled out all the stops and threw a ton of different coverages at Mahomes.

    The low point for me was Mor, Larry and Curly tackling each other and allowing the long TD.

    Other than that, we made them earn everything and clearly rattled Mahomes into some panic decisions.

   

Of course it wasn’t only Von Miller-  but it also wasn’t just 11 guys playing together.  We had that last year to the tune of having the #1 ranked D in the league.  But Mahomes tore us up.  It was a combination of great defensive play calling, a well oil defense and the bills adding a superstar pass rusher.  Teams that don’t have a super star pass rusher won’t be able to follow our lead.  

Von was the difference defensively.  Last year, Mahomes would escape, run around and move the chains at will. Sunday, Von got a sack to force a 3rd and 19, then punt.  Von got a sack on 3rd and 6 to force a punt.  He miraculously tackled Mahomes from behind, while jumping over one of his teammates to prevent Mahomes from running for the first on 3rd down and holding them to a fg.  If we didn’t have him, we would have lost and our “blueprint” would be but a dream
 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by NewEra

[Billz4ever]

15 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

If it was that easy, every team would be shutting down/ limiting Kielce. It’s just not. That’s why he’s a great TE. 

Can't jam someone if you don't even try.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I think we are being a little hard on the OP.

 

We weren't the first, but Mahommes, while excellent, has looked mortal these last three weeks.

 

I don't think the loss of Tyreek Hill can be overstated, even if talking heads deny it. Hill can take a simple slant for 40 yards.

 

I do like the rush 3 with a spy approach we used on the final drive. Maybe we are one of the few who can use it, but I expect a heavy dose of it going forward 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

The Giants showed the blue print to stop high potency offenses long ago. Rush and get pressure with 4 and drop 7. It's been the formula for a long time now. Easy to say and incredibly difficult to execute.

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

I'm already sick of the idea that Von Miller somehow imprinted his name all over the game and took it over.

 

He was not much of a factor for most of the game, as is always the case for big name edge rushers.

 

Then he gets a sack and boom, he's a superstar.

 

He made several big plays at big moments, and did lots of nothing for long stretches....maybe that's good enough.

 

And let's not forget all those defensive snaps when he isn't even on the field.

I’m glad that you wrote this.  It just reinforces everything I already knew.

[wjag]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

Von is a great story but I think Daquan Jones/Jordan Phillips have been as good as additions on the D-line as he's helped our run D to move up to 1st in the league from 13th. 

 

I really believe this is the difference.  Last year in games the Bills lost, a good running team (Titans (143 yds from primary carriers), Colts (185), Patriots (111, 78), Bucs (113) Jags (67) ) were able to eat clock and keep the Bills off the field and keep the score closer.  This year, so far, teams are getting no where running on the Bills.  That adds enormous pressure to keep up with the Allens.  Which plays right in to the pass rush.  Phillips, Jones, Settle are doing the job in the middle.  Which frees up Milano and Edmunds to clean up the corners.

[wjag]

14 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I'm already sick of the idea that Von Miller somehow imprinted his name all over the game and took it over.

 

I saw an interview with Von early in the season when talking about Allen.  He was oozing praise on Allen and spoke of why it was so difficult to play QB.  He basically said, Allen has to be right all the time.  I only need to win once or twice a game.  Makes sense to me. 

 

He had nine pressures, 2 Sacks, a key tackle when Mahomes escaped the pocket and was heading for a first down.  Play ended up with a missed FG.  He had the key sack to get Mahomes off the field on 3 and out which gave the ball back to Buffalo.  And one other tidbit.  He was NOT on the field when Mahomes scrambled and found Hardman in the endzone for the TD.

Edited October 18, 2022 by wjag

[ngbills]

I am not as impressed as I expect the Bills to beat the Chiefs. We are the better team now. 

 

I think the Bills played a B level game and still won. Both units played good enough to win. Shows how good this team is.

 

We still struggled to stop KC and as others have said the offense helps the D by keeping the ball out of KC hands a lot. If this was one of those games that the O does not show up I think KC scores 30+. KC had their way on 3 of the 5 drives in the first half (luckily only scored 10 and not 17). The second half it was essentially the same 3 of 5 and only scored 10 due to the missed FG. 

 

Higher expectations. We are not lucky to beat the chiefs anymore. They are lucky to be in games with us. 

[HOUSE]

By signing Von Miller we proved you need a stud pass rusher. 

So yes

[MarkyMannn]

39 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Pretty sure the Bills  jammed him at the line and got flagged for it ( bad call but still )

Yeah there also was a play where Kelce pushed off at the line and amazingly got called for it

[Nephilim17]

Another thing we did differently this game versus the past:

We blitzed Mahomes 10 times. The old narrative was you can't do that to Mahomes and survive.

Well, in 2022, post Tyreek Hill and perhaps post new Bills additions, it's working:

"This time the Bills sent five or more rushers at Mahomes on 10 of 52 dropbacks (19%). He completed just 3 of 9 for 26 yards on those plays. The Bills blitzed Mahomes five times on first down and five on second down. They never blitzed him on third down. That's probably close to the maximum the Bills want to show blitz against the Chiefs."

https://buffalonews.com/sports/bills/analysis-bills-defense-pulled-out-blitz-dime-3-man-rush-wrinkles-vs-chiefs/article_05357caa-4e48-11ed-9bd2-1b5694eaa7f8.html

Note: this a paywall Buffalo News article. 
 

[FilthyBeast]

Mahomes still had a typical day passing with 300+ yards and they had two guys over 100 yards receiving including Kelce.

 

The difference was 2 INT's from Mahomes and yet they still only lost by 4 points.

 

So long story short, no we didn't teach the NFL anything. Mahomes is still going to do his thing and the Chiefs are probably still a 12 win team minimum this year and destined to face the Bills yet again in January when it will be that more difficult to win against them again.

[djp14150]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So bear with me on this one because there is history on us doing this.

 

2020 the second last week we played the Ravens, a team no one could really stop on the ground. that year in the playoffs the Titans even though they lost said they learned from Buffalo how to defend Baltimore. Baltimore really has not been the same since.

 

Now i get it. Mahomes will always be Mahomes. will be a top tier QB for a long time... 

 

BUT

 

Did we just teach defenses... good defenses around the league how to defend KC?

 

Does anyone remember the last time KC scored 20 or less points in a game?

 

to be continued.

 

Thoughts?

 

what did Indy do when they beat them?

 

what did TB do in the SB?

 

what did cincinati do in the AFC champ game?

 

[DrDawkinstein]

Yes, but last year.

 

This was the story after last year's regular season victory. "The Bills taught the league to use a soft bubble Cover 2 and stop Mahomes!"

 

It's why you see a lot more teams doing it this year. To the Chiefs, to us, to the Ravens. But the problem for other Defenses is they dont have the players to support it.

[dma0034]

Well teams adjusted to the Cover 2 and now Mahomes/Allen are rolling again. Only way to stop Mahomes/Allen is to get pressure quickly. The more pressured Mahomes got the worse he became during the game... he started throwing quicker and missed some throws. Problem: there are only a handful of teams that can do it

[Buffalo Boy]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Of course it was only Von Miller-  but it also wasn’t just 11 guys playing together.  We had that last year to the tune of having the #1 ranked D in the league.  But Mahomes tore us up.  It was a combination of great defensive play calling, a well oil defense and the bills adding a superstar pass rusher.  Teams that don’t have a super star pass rusher won’t be able to follow our lead.  

Von was the difference defensively.  Last year, Mahomes would escape, run around and move the chains at will. Sunday, Von got a sack to force a 3rd and 19, then punt.  Von got a sack on 3rd and 6 to force a punt.  He miraculously tackled Mahomes from behind, while jumping over one of his teammates to prevent Mahomes from running for the first on 3rd down and holding them to a fg.  If we didn’t have him, we would have lost and our “blueprint” would be but a dream
 

 

   So, no credit to Jones, Phillips and Lawson for helping not only plug up the middle and keep the LBs clean and free but also get pressure up the middle.

    You take away those three and their play in the middle and Millers heroics are probably for naught as Mahomes/Houdini has other avenues of escape.

   This D as a whole is better than last year because of multiple upgrades on the line.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Mahomes still had a typical day passing with 300+ yards and they had two guys over 100 yards receiving including Kelce.

 

The difference was 2 INT's from Mahomes and yet they still only lost by 4 points.

 

So long story short, no we didn't teach the NFL anything. Mahomes is still going to do his thing and the Chiefs are probably still a 12 win team minimum this year and destined to face the Bills yet again in January when it will be that more difficult to win against them again.

 42 yards and a TD of Mahomes stats was Schuster's short catch and busted play.  That was on us.  Nothing special the Chiefs did.

[Boatdrinks]

17 minutes ago, MarkyMannn said:

Yeah there also was a play where Kelce pushed off at the line and amazingly got called for it

Agreed , both pretty weak calls. 

[Billz4ever]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   So, no credit to Jones, Phillips and Lawson for helping not only plug up the middle and keep the LBs clean and free but also get pressure up the middle.

    You take away those three and their play in the middle and Millers heroics are probably for naught as Mahomes/Houdini has other avenues of escape.

   This D as a whole is better than last year because of multiple upgrades on the line.

Did you not listen to Von after the game?  He literally gave credit to those guys and said they all make each other better and allow him to do what he does.

[Buffalo Boy]

2 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Did you not listen to Von after the game?  He literally gave credit to those guys and said they all make each other better and allow him to do what he does.

I know he did. Does the poster I’m replying to know this🤔

Trust me, I was bigtime basking in the afterglow of that win and all the pressers and coverage I could find.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Buffalo Boy

[BRH]

41 minutes ago, wjag said:

 

As I recall, one Bills defender fell down trying to make the tackle and right in the path of a chaser who tripped.  The third guy had to go around and lost time and momentum. Credit JuJu for avoiding the wreck.  Yeah I agreed it did look a bit like the Keystone Kops on that play.

 

This is how well the defense played:  Mahomes' two touchdowns were the result of that play and another where he had forever in the pocket and someone finally shook free in the end zone five yards away.  

 

Allen threw three freaking dimes to covered receivers from 20+ yards away.

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   So, no credit to Jones, Phillips and Lawson for helping not only plug up the middle and keep the LBs clean and free but also get pressure up the middle.

    You take away those three and their play in the middle and Millers heroics are probably for naught as Mahomes/Houdini has other avenues of escape.

   This D as a whole is better than last year because of multiple upgrades on the line.

Typo- sorry-  meant to say of course it “wasn’t” only Von Miller.  It’s fixed now.

 

I’ve been banging the table for how valuable Daquon has been. He’s been the perfect fit at the 1tech and has been a plus pass rusher as well.  HUGE addition.  He much more so than Phillips and Lawson.  Both have been great additions, but I wouldn’t put their impact on the same level as Jones.  Just as I wouldn’t put Jones’ impact on the same level as Von.  Von is different.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by NewEra

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

Jamming him at the line would be a good start instead of allowing him to freely release to quickly get downfield and find the holes in our zone.

 

They just don't line him up there though

[Billz4ever]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

I know he did. Does the poster I’m replying to know this🤔

Not sure, but it should be common sense that Von isn't doing this himself.  Without the push up the middle, Von could easily be double teamed and essentially be taken out of the equation.

[Warcodered]

This seems more like the question you ask after a string of poor offensive performances following our game, can't say anyone has leaned anything if they haven't even done anything yet.

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   So, no credit to Jones, Phillips and Lawson for helping not only plug up the middle and keep the LBs clean and free but also get pressure up the middle.

    You take away those three and their play in the middle and Millers heroics are probably for naught as Mahomes/Houdini has other avenues of escape.

   This D as a whole is better than last year because of multiple upgrades on the line.

Absolutely-  but we would have lost that game without Von imo.

[BRH]

22 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Mahomes is still going to do his thing and the Chiefs are probably still a 12 win team minimum this year and destined to face the Bills yet again in January when it will be that more difficult to win against them again.

 

🙄

Edited October 18, 2022 by BRH

[TheWeatherMan]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

Yes, but we also can't defend against a FG in less than 13 seconds so...

 

 

12 seconds