HappyDays Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Scott7975 said: I swear I read earlier in the week that they didnt even review the film of the injury in Buffalo when make the call. That is probably one mistake and a big one. What a coincidence. If only there was an entire sideline of Dolphins employees that could have passed along what they saw. I will say the NFL is at least somewhat culpable for this too. They saw the same thing on broadcast footage that everyone else saw. At any time they could have called the Dolphins and said we don't care what the consultant said, Tua is not going back into this game. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 (edited) Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. Also, doctor or not, the coach never should have let him finish the game. He had the choice there and knows what he saw Edited October 1, 2022 by Virgil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just now, Virgil said: Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. I won't blame Tua. There is a ton of implicit pressure on these players to fight through pain and get back on the field. College kids do stupider things than that and they're not getting paid millions of dollars for the trouble. The NFL instituted this protocol to protect the players from themselves. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. Also, doctor or not, the coach never should have let him finish the game. He had the choice there and knows what he saw That’s like blaming a boxer for not throwing in the towel on himself before he goes out for the 12th round. They ain’t gonna admit they just had a concussion in the heat of battle. That’s why the process is set up to protect players from themselves. 39 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: Hahaha! The Dolphins found a scapegoat for their obvious disregard for player safety. Somebody keep an eye on this guys bank account. This is the NFLPA doing this. Dolphins still adamant nothing was wrong. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Virgil said: Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. Also, doctor or not, the coach never should have let him finish the game. He had the choice there and knows what he saw This is largely why I have no interest in sending money to his foundation. I wish him well and hope for a full recovery and a long healthy life, but he largely brought this on himself. I don’t care what locker room culture says. THIS is why they have such strict rules regarding hits to the head and concussions. Sometimes you have to help yourself. I know there are plenty of occasions where something more mild slips by, but this was not just everyone else failing him (which they did). He failed himself and I hope he learns from it as well as other players who see this happen. It’s no joke. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 9 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said: The independent spotter would have seen him stumble and would have relayed it. Now, whether they rewatched the video, I'm not sure. I'm not sure it's part of the protocol. I'm not sure that's part of the protocol, in determining it was ortopedic or neurologic. It could be the case he got back to the locker room, was able to pass the concusion testing and did in fact have a back injury as well. It may be that the Doctors, per the protocol, aren't asked to look at the film of the stumble? Quote A third UNC will be assigned to a stadium booth with access to multiple views of video (including the live broadcast feed and audio) and replay to aid in the recognition of injury (Booth UNC). Quote The sideline medical staff will be able to review the game film on the sidelines to obtain information on particular plays involving possible injury. Quote If a player exhibits or reports a sign or symptom of concussion (defined above) or a concern is raised by the club's athletic trainer, team physicians, Booth ATC Spotter, coach, teammate, game official or Sideline or Booth Unaffiliated Neurotrauma Consultant (collectively referred to as "gameday medical personnel") the player must be immediately removed to the sideline or stabilized on the field, as needed, the player's helmet must be taken away from him, and the player must undergo the entire NFL Sideline Concussion Assessment[2] which, at a minimum, must consist of the following: A review of the "No-Go" criteria reviewed above (Loss of Consciousness (including impact seizure and/or "fencing posture"), Gross Motor Instability (as defined above) Confusion, and Amnesia), which, if present, requires the player to be brought to the locker room immediately and he shall not return to play; Quote Inquiry regarding the history of the event; Review of concussion signs and symptoms (See, Section I (C and D)); Quote The foregoing shall be (i) conducted inside the medical evaluation tent on the sideline and (ii) performed using the tablet or other technology assigned by the NFL, and completion of each component of the Sideline Survey shall be confirmed using the same. I would say yes, they are supposed to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 15 minutes ago, Augie said: Serious question, and maybe it’s been answered before, but: Did the team Doc or the independent Doc even SEE him stumbling? If they missed seeing it and/or were hiding in the shade and AC somewhere, the system failed, but at least then I can understand it. If they SAW him staggering and still cleared him, their license should be in jeopardy. I’m no doctor, but that was no back injury. You'd think someone would mention it to them though, or they'd see the replay, or they'd wonder why they're seeing Tua right now. 19 minutes ago, HappyDays said: There's a big stink coming out of the Dolphins locker room. 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 8 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: This is the NFLPA doing this. Dolphins still adamant nothing was wrong. Yeah, but if they determined there were missed signs, that means the Dolphins doctors missed them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 16 minutes ago, Virgil said: Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. Also, doctor or not, the coach never should have let him finish the game. He had the choice there and knows what he saw Is there some sure I guess, but all the pressure to get back out there plus the concussion itself. I remember in High School before the season a kid got concussed came off the field thought he was fine, completely obvious to anyone who talked to him that he was not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 18 minutes ago, Virgil said: Am I crazy for thinking Tua should be somewhat accountable as well? For brain injuries, some of the evaluation has to be based off questions, right? Tua was adamant he only hurt his back. He was clearly lying. Anyone who saw him walk off the field could see what happened. Also, doctor or not, the coach never should have let him finish the game. He had the choice there and knows what he saw Holding Tua accountable assumes he remembers what happened, which is not a given. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Scott7975 said: I would say yes, they are supposed to. The first part is the spotter, and that speaks to spotting the concussion and not to the Medical professionals performing the actual test. This also talks of what happens when taken to the sideline for a concussion test and not what happens when taken to locker room for a "no go" evaluation for Gross Motor Instability. As we saw, Tua did not go to the sidelines to be evaluated. Because of this loophole that he has to be taken to the locker room, it's possible he was able to clear the cobwebs by the time he got there. They may have been able to also determine he had a back injury, therefore confirming the orthopedic loophole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Warcodered said: You'd think someone would mention it to them though, or they'd see the replay, or they'd wonder why they're seeing Tua right now. 🤔 You would think “what happened?” would be pretty high on the list of boxes to check. “Look, we can show you!” Anyone who failed to share the extent of his injury and the resulting stumbles is just as guilty as the doctors. The “protocol” seems to be missing some common sense ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: Yeah, but if they determined there were missed signs, that means the Dolphins doctors missed them too. Or ignored them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said: The first part is the spotter, and that speaks to spotting the concussion and not to the Medical professionals performing the actual test. This also talks of what happens when taken to the sideline for a concussion test and not what happens when taken to locker room for a "no go" evaluation for Gross Motor Instability. As we saw, Tua did not go to the sidelines to be evaluated. Because of this loophole that he has to be taken to the locker room, it's possible he was able to clear the cobwebs by the time he got there. They may have been able to also determine he had a back injury, therefore confirming the orthopedic loophole. The spotter is also a UNC Quote Added a third UNC who will monitor the broadcast video and audio feeds of each game from the spotters' booth, and notify on-field UNCs of possible head, neck or spine injuries. Where in this graph does it say "skip the sideline review and go directly to the locker room?" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 This is from yesterday but it seems relevant. What was the team physician's role in letting him back into the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, HappyDays said: This is from yesterday but it seems relevant. What was the team physician's role in letting him back into the game? As I stated many times and posted the language from the NFL rules... The teams head physician is the guy responsible for and making the final call on whether a player can play or has to go into concussion protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: Yeah, but if they determined there were missed signs, that means the Dolphins doctors missed them too. Yes, but the NFLPA can’t fire the team doctors. They can only fire the UNC, which they just did. Miami organization still seems to not find any problem in anything that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Just saw the doctor who evaluated him last Sunday got fired for making some “mistakes”. This really needs to be thoroughly investigated. That kid could literally have gotten killed Thursday night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: The spotter is also a UNC Where in this graph does it say "skip the sideline review and go directly to the locker room?" Honestly, this isn't that hard as you keep quoting the NFL website, it's literally right there in it. Quote "No-Go" Signs and Symptoms. If a player exhibits or reports any of the following signs or symptoms of concussion, he must be removed immediately from the field of play and transported to the locker room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, HappyDays said: This is from yesterday but it seems relevant. What was the team physician's role in letting him back into the game? This is from before the second injury and also relevant 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said: Yes, but the NFLPA can’t fire the team doctors. They can only fire the UNC, which they just did. Miami organization still seems to not find any problem in anything that happened. Yeah, we’ll just have to wait and see if the masses accept this sacrificial lamb. That will determine what happens next. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said: Honestly, this isn't that hard as you keep quoting the NFL website, it's literally right there in it. Are you really trying to be a dick about it? Was I a dick with you? You asked a question. I posted information that I believe answers that question. Whats with the passive aggressive attitude? If they took him straight to the locker room for a no go situation then they failed their job because its a no go situation and they let him go back on the field. Edited October 1, 2022 by Scott7975 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconator Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Hostility during the investigation process?!?! 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Lots of emotions over this and a lot of info. To add to the info, I just read this NFL/NFLPA pdf on player safety and protocols. https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/2020 Kickoff Guide/2 - Player Health and Safety.pdf Page 14 has the Concussion checklist. I read it that, if there is any sign of "fencing", the player cannot return to play. Explains all the spotters, UNCs and other protocols and responsibilities. I found it interesting. I apologize if this has been already posted and I missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, Draconator said: Hostility during the investigation process?!?! Must have gotten upset when they asked him about that car their uncle left them in his will. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Scott7975 said: Are you really trying to be a dick about it? Was I a dick with you? You asked a question. I posted information that I believe answers that question. Whats with the passive aggressive attitude? If they took him straight to the locker room for a no go situation then they failed their job because its a no go situation and they let him go back on the field. No I'm not being a dick but you are posting from the NFL website and it's all right there. And to your second question, if you see the * by the Gross Motor Instability, that explains how they can go back in after appearing to have a "No Go" situation. Quote *Determined by team physician, in consultation with the UNC, to be neurologically caused. They have to prove it was caused neurologically instead of looking at the video and just assuming it is. If they can't prove it, aka he passes the concussion tests AND they prove he has an orthopedic issue, he can return to play. It also says on the checklist you posted about going to the locker room for a No Go: Quote If normal assessment, player may RETURN TO PLAY. That's the loophole and where the whole thing has fallen down. Tua may have been able to clear the cob webs and pass the concusion test. They may have then determined he did in fact have a back injury. So therefore he can return to play. I have no idea if they review the video in the locker room, or seek a second opinion. Nothing in the protocol seems to suggest they do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharky7337 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34702740/unaffiliated-neurotrauma-consultant-evaluated-miami-dolphins-qb-tua-tagovailoa-fired-several-mistakes-source-says Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34702740/unaffiliated-neurotrauma-consultant-evaluated-miami-dolphins-qb-tua-tagovailoa-fired-several-mistakes-source-says Quote NFL chief medical officer Allen Sills said Tagovailoa was evaluated for a concussion every day between the games on Sunday and Thursday. The league's concussion protocol states that the same UNC who performs a player's initial test "ideally" should perform the follow-up evaluations, but a member of the team's medical staff may do so if necessary. It was not immediately known whether the now-terminated doctor performed Tagovailoa's follow-up evaluations. Wouldn't that kind of be a conflict of interest, if they find he has a concussion later on wouldn't they be highlighting their own ***** up? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co_springs_billsfan Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 17 minutes ago, Draconator said: Hostility during the investigation process?!?! I'm sure it was just your normal everyday destruction of cell phone type of situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Wouldn't that kind of be a conflict of interest, if they find he has a concussion later on wouldn't they be highlighting their own ***** up? The member of the team's medical staff would have had to clear him on sunday as well as the UNC and I would assume that the UNC would only be required for Tua to clear concussion protocol (which they never put him in). Edited October 1, 2022 by The Wiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKBillFan Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 22 minutes ago, Draconator said: Hostility during the investigation process?!?! I presume against those from the NFLPA who were asking him questions about it? Although this is the right move, anyone watching Tua could see he was concussed. It should not have needed a independent consultant to say he's concussed before pulling him from the field. I hope that win is worth it for the Dolphins. The '3' against their name is clearly more valuable than Tua's health. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cray51 Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 Team messed up, doctor messed up, Tua messed up. Just a crap showing all around. The league needs to do better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotton Fitzsimmons Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 hour ago, syhuang said: Clearly this guy was going down, but interesting note about "failure to understand his role as UNC" Could that leave the door open to there being some discrepancy over the power the UNC has in making the call? Was there some type of disagreement between the UNC and team docs? That's where things will get interesting if the details ever actually come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 purely damage control and public relations trying to put lipstick on a pig that fell from a Redwood, hitting its snout on every branch on way down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, Pete said: purely damage control and public relations trying to put lipstick on a pig that fell from a Redwood, hitting its snout on every branch on way down Ha! Quite descriptive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 hours ago, co_springs_billsfan said: I'm sure it was just your normal everyday destruction of cell phone type of situation. That's not the way I read it, but who really knows. If he just destroyed his phone, I'd call it "interference," not hostility. Sounds like he was an ass but we need to know more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 hours ago, syhuang said: I’m getting a definite “You wanna send a guy with head trauma back into a professional football game, fine, but you roll in here with THAT attitude during the cover up…I won’t have it.” vibe here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Cray51 said: Team messed up, doctor messed up, Tua messed up. Just a crap showing all around. The league needs to do better. If fairly high up people within the Miami organization don't pay for this with their jobs, the firing of this doctor will accomplish absolutely nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted October 1, 2022 Share Posted October 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Warcodered said: Appropriate for a scumbag 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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