Joe B article about cornerbacks

[whorlnut]

For those that have The Athletic, go read Joe B’s most recent article. He argues why corner at 25 isnt the slam dunk many are making it out to be. It’s a good read. 

[mushypeaches]

I think that his logic is sound, based on the last 5 years of the regime, as to why they might not draft a CB at 25

 

But I still want them to anyways.  Can never have too many quality players at that position.

 

We'll rue the day if Tre doesn't come back to form and we need Josh to score 40+ points just to win games.  

 

[TPS]

16 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

For those that have The Athletic, go read Joe B’s most recent article. He argues why corner at 25 isnt the slam dunk many are making it out to be. It’s a good read. 

Check the Von Miller quotes in the thread Yolo put up, he's actively recruiting Haden.

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

I think that his logic is sound, based on the last 5 years of the regime, as to why they might not draft a CB at 25

 

But I still want them to anyways.  Can never have too many quality players at that position.

 

We'll rue the day if Tre doesn't come back to form and we need Josh to score 40+ points just to win games.  

 

 

That would be an epic fail on the other 10 players if a defense with Poyer, Hyde, Milano, Edmunds, T. Johnson, Miller, Oliver, Rousseau, Jones etc., can't hold down their side of the ball with Jackson on one side and a non-top pick CB opposite him until Tre comes back. 

[whorlnut]

5 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

I think that his logic is sound, based on the last 5 years of the regime, as to why they might not draft a CB at 25

 

But I still want them to anyways.  Can never have too many quality players at that position.

 

We'll rue the day if Tre doesn't come back to form and we need Josh to score 40+ points just to win games.  

 

That’s my point though…get weapons that help Allen instead of putting it all on him. Make his life as easy as possible. Keep stacking long term weapons on offense. We saw too many times last year that he literally won the game on his own. He was the leading rusher way too often. That isn’t sustainable. 

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

 

That would be an epic fail on the other 10 players if a defense with Poyer, Hyde, Milano, Edmunds, T. Johnson, Miller, Oliver, Rousseau, Jones etc., can't hold down their side of the ball with Jackson on one side and a non-top pick CB opposite him until Tre comes back. 

Totally agree. The defense is good enough. We can get by with a Jag at CB2…which is exactly what every McD led defense has done back to his days in Carolina. And he is the best in the league at getting the most out of DBs. 

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

I think that his logic is sound, based on the last 5 years of the regime, as to why they might not draft a CB at 25

 

But I still want them to anyways.  Can never have too many quality players at that position.

 

We'll rue the day if Tre doesn't come back to form and we need Josh to score 40+ points just to win games.  

 

What team's defense is so bad they have to score 40+ to win?

[eball]

I'm not here to say I told you so, but... 

 

Kidding aside, I have said all offseason I'd be surprised if they go CB at #1 unless something crazy happens and a can't miss guy falls to them.  I hold to that thinking.

[Bray Wyatt]

can we get some snippets from the article? I am curious to what his actual point he is making as to why

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I still predict a CB/Safety hybrid 

[Coach Tuesday]

If they can somehow snag Damari Mathis in Round 2 or 3...

[Solomon Grundy]

26 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

That would be an epic fail on the other 10 players if a defense with Poyer, Hyde, Milano, Edmunds, T. Johnson, Miller, Oliver, Rousseau, Jones etc., can't hold down their side of the ball with Jackson on one side and a non-top pick CB opposite him until Tre comes back. 

They did it with Levi Wallace 

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

They did it with Levi Wallace 

And they are trying to do the same with Dane Jackson. 

[Gugny]

https://theathletic.com/3259273/2022/04/20/bills-nfl-draft-cornerbacks/

 

Some highlights ....

 

The Bills have checked almost every box across their starting lineup this offseason.

 

A top-tier pass rusher to give them something they haven’t had for the past three years? The Bills added Von Miller, and they supported him with four other free-agent additions on the defensive line. Check.

 

An upgraded offensive line, complete with bringing back the other four playoff starters? Rodger Saffold is in, Daryl Williams is out and they re-signed Ryan Bates. Check.

 

A refreshed group of wide receivers? Emmanuel Sanders and Cole Beasley are out. Gabriel Davis is now a full-time starter, they re-signed Isaiah McKenzie and signed productive slot receiver Jamison Crowder. Check.

 

Because of all their dealings, one position has developed into the strong lean in mock drafts across the NFL frontier: cornerback.

It’s the only position the Bills haven’t significantly addressed this offseason. And it’s a pretty easy draft argument, considering that’s what’s remaining from the potential liabilities of their starting lineup.

 

Two factors that contribute to the theory are that Tre’Davious White is coming off a torn ACL in late November, and Dane Jackson was a hit-or-miss replacement for White through the end of the playoffs. Since there’s uncertainty about when White will be 100 percent, cornerback is more pressing to those outside of the organization.

 

Regarding short-term requirements, cornerback is the low-hanging fruit of the Bills’ draft needs because it provides the most straightforward justification for their 2022 roster. Sometimes, the Bills go for the low-hanging fruit in the first round, but it’s not always that simple.

It deserves a deeper look than “they need a cornerback the most, so they should just draft one in the first round.” Should they be committed to using their top draft resource on a cornerback, and what does their past show us?

It comes down to positional importance, value, the success of development, other avenues that can contribute and what can help the Bills most over the long term.

 

That’s where I believe there is quite a bit of wiggle room. If the Bills see someone at No. 25 who matches the value of their selection, it’s fruitless to rule out a cornerback. But it’s not nearly the slam dunk many are making it out to be.

 

Since 2018, his first draft year, Beane has not used a draft pick on an intended-boundary cornerback in the first five rounds. The only players he has drafted to the position have been Jackson (seventh round, 2020) and Rachad Wildgoose (sixth round, 2021). Teams are usually not drafting late-round cornerbacks with the idea that they eventually would compete for a starting role. Beane’s favorite avenue has been trying to find undrafted free-agent gems at cornerback as they did with Levi Wallace, and they have a couple they like right now in Nick McCloud and Olaijah Griffin.

 

Since McDermott has become the head coach, the Bills have hesitated to put a complete starter’s workload on a young player, regardless of how early he was drafted. In 2017, the team didn’t start offensive tackle Dion Dawkins until Week 3  and resisted the urge to make linebacker Matt Milano a full-time starter until Week 14, despite Milano completely outplaying starter Ramon Humber up to that point. The Bills made quarterback Josh Allen the starter only after Nathan Peterman made them non-competitive to open 2018.

 

In 2019, Ed Oliver, Cody Ford, Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox were all just rotational players rather than full-time starters. The same went for A.J. Epenesa and Zack Moss in 2020. In 2021, the team “started” Gregory Rousseau every week, but he was just a rotational defensive end who played 49 percent of all defensive snaps. The Bills also didn’t make Spencer Brown a starter until they concluded that Daryl Williams was hurting them at right tackle. The only exceptions to the rookie rule have been White, Zay Jones and Tremaine Edmunds, though they all started because the Bills would have been utterly non-competitive without them in the lineup.

 

It’s rare for McDermott to put his faith in a rookie during a 17-game season. He firmly believes that the rookie wall is real and actively manages time off the field throughout the season to help prevent a steep drop-off. The idea that a cornerback selected at No. 25, or any position for that matter, is going to walk in and be the coast-to-coast starter in 2022 lacks the supporting evidence of McDermott’s history with first-year players. The Bills have shown an excellent ability to develop their players, and deviating from that philosophy does not seem likely.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

They’re going to draft as their board dictates. Positions not high on their board is short, QB, K, and P.  Everything else is in play at 25. Ok no long snappers.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[John from Riverside]

I am a Andrew Booth fan at 25....if he is not there I could see us going in like three different directions.

 

but

 

To be clear there are three things going on here

 

- This draft has good corners....it only makes sense that we could draft one

 

- We are in a champship window

 

- Tre White is probably not starting the season.....Dane jackons is a 2nd year starter.....we let Wallace go free agency.   We are NOT rolling out Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis when all of these other AFC teams have been biulding up their offensive weapons.

[whorlnut]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I am a Andrew Booth fan at 25....if he is not there I could see us going in like three different directions.

 

but

 

To be clear there are three things going on here

 

- This draft has good corners....it only makes sense that we could draft one

 

- We are in a champship window

 

- Tre White is probably not starting the season.....Dane jackons is a 2nd year starter.....we let Wallace go free agency.   We are NOT rolling out Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis when all of these other AFC teams have been biulding up their offensive weapons.

You think the chiefs care about defense?  Haha. They just keep loading up on offensive weapons and overwhelm opposing defenses. I’m more convinced that I’m today’s nfl, that is the way to go. 

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

You think the chiefs care about defense?  Haha. They just keep loading up on offensive weapons and overwhelm opposing defenses. I’m more convinced that I’m today’s nfl, that is the way to go. 

We are not the chiefs......our HC is a friggen D coordinator...he doesnt think about this the same way you do.

 

And.....he is right and you are wrong

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

That’s my point though…get weapons that help Allen instead of putting it all on him. Make his life as easy as possible. Keep stacking long term weapons on offense. We saw too many times last year that he literally won the game on his own. He was the leading rusher way too often. That isn’t sustainable. 

Totally agree. The defense is good enough. We can get by with a Jag at CB2…which is exactly what every McD led defense has done back to his days in Carolina. And he is the best in the league at getting the most out of DBs. 

 

25 minutes ago, Gugny said:

https://theathletic.com/3259273/2022/04/20/bills-nfl-draft-cornerbacks/

 

Some highlights ....

 

The Bills have checked almost every box across their starting lineup this offseason.

 

A top-tier pass rusher to give them something they haven’t had for the past three years? The Bills added Von Miller, and they supported him with four other free-agent additions on the defensive line. Check.

 

An upgraded offensive line, complete with bringing back the other four playoff starters? Rodger Saffold is in, Daryl Williams is out and they re-signed Ryan Bates. Check.

 

A refreshed group of wide receivers? Emmanuel Sanders and Cole Beasley are out. Gabriel Davis is now a full-time starter, they re-signed Isaiah McKenzie and signed productive slot receiver Jamison Crowder. Check.

 

Because of all their dealings, one position has developed into the strong lean in mock drafts across the NFL frontier: cornerback.

It’s the only position the Bills haven’t significantly addressed this offseason. And it’s a pretty easy draft argument, considering that’s what’s remaining from the potential liabilities of their starting lineup.

 

Two factors that contribute to the theory are that Tre’Davious White is coming off a torn ACL in late November, and Dane Jackson was a hit-or-miss replacement for White through the end of the playoffs. Since there’s uncertainty about when White will be 100 percent, cornerback is more pressing to those outside of the organization.

 

Regarding short-term requirements, cornerback is the low-hanging fruit of the Bills’ draft needs because it provides the most straightforward justification for their 2022 roster. Sometimes, the Bills go for the low-hanging fruit in the first round, but it’s not always that simple.

It deserves a deeper look than “they need a cornerback the most, so they should just draft one in the first round.” Should they be committed to using their top draft resource on a cornerback, and what does their past show us?

It comes down to positional importance, value, the success of development, other avenues that can contribute and what can help the Bills most over the long term.

 

That’s where I believe there is quite a bit of wiggle room. If the Bills see someone at No. 25 who matches the value of their selection, it’s fruitless to rule out a cornerback. But it’s not nearly the slam dunk many are making it out to be.

 

Since 2018, his first draft year, Beane has not used a draft pick on an intended-boundary cornerback in the first five rounds. The only players he has drafted to the position have been Jackson (seventh round, 2020) and Rachad Wildgoose (sixth round, 2021). Teams are usually not drafting late-round cornerbacks with the idea that they eventually would compete for a starting role. Beane’s favorite avenue has been trying to find undrafted free-agent gems at cornerback as they did with Levi Wallace, and they have a couple they like right now in Nick McCloud and Olaijah Griffin.

 

Since McDermott has become the head coach, the Bills have hesitated to put a complete starter’s workload on a young player, regardless of how early he was drafted. In 2017, the team didn’t start offensive tackle Dion Dawkins until Week 3  and resisted the urge to make linebacker Matt Milano a full-time starter until Week 14, despite Milano completely outplaying starter Ramon Humber up to that point. The Bills made quarterback Josh Allen the starter only after Nathan Peterman made them non-competitive to open 2018.

 

In 2019, Ed Oliver, Cody Ford, Devin Singletary and Dawson Knox were all just rotational players rather than full-time starters. The same went for A.J. Epenesa and Zack Moss in 2020. In 2021, the team “started” Gregory Rousseau every week, but he was just a rotational defensive end who played 49 percent of all defensive snaps. The Bills also didn’t make Spencer Brown a starter until they concluded that Daryl Williams was hurting them at right tackle. The only exceptions to the rookie rule have been White, Zay Jones and Tremaine Edmunds, though they all started because the Bills would have been utterly non-competitive without them in the lineup.

 

It’s rare for McDermott to put his faith in a rookie during a 17-game season. He firmly believes that the rookie wall is real and actively manages time off the field throughout the season to help prevent a steep drop-off. The idea that a cornerback selected at No. 25, or any position for that matter, is going to walk in and be the coast-to-coast starter in 2022 lacks the supporting evidence of McDermott’s history with first-year players. The Bills have shown an excellent ability to develop their players, and deviating from that philosophy does not seem likely.

 

If T White hadn't got  hurt, would completely agree with his logic.  But IMO that changes alot here with CB in general.  Unless they feel strongly that White will be back Sept 1st at 80 to 90%??

[eball]

19 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

We are NOT rolling out Dane Jackson and Cam Lewis when all of these other AFC teams have been biulding up their offensive weapons.

 

Why would you presume the only way for the Bills to avoid that scenario is to draft a CB in the 1st round?  Good god, man, CBs are available in rounds other than the 1st and there a bunch of veterans out there to sign post-draft.

[whorlnut]

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

We are not the chiefs......our HC is a friggen D coordinator...he doesnt think about this the same way you do.

 

And.....he is right and you are wrong

Lots of opinions in this post…

[MJS]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

That’s my point though…get weapons that help Allen instead of putting it all on him. Make his life as easy as possible. Keep stacking long term weapons on offense. We saw too many times last year that he literally won the game on his own. He was the leading rusher way too often. That isn’t sustainable. 

Totally agree. The defense is good enough. We can get by with a Jag at CB2…which is exactly what every McD led defense has done back to his days in Carolina. And he is the best in the league at getting the most out of DBs. 

And we don't have to worry about Tyreek Hill in the playoffs anymore.

 

But let's not forget that McDermott's first draft pick in Buffalo was Tre White in the first round. McDermott, despite his track record with secondaries, must know he needs some additional talent there.

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, eball said:

 

Why would you presume the only way for the Bills to avoid that scenario is to draft a CB in the 1st round?  Good god, man, CBs are available in rounds other than the 1st and there a bunch of veterans out there to sign post-draft.

Typical Bills fan fashion…can’t even comprehend the possibility of this team taking an offensive player in the first round. 

Just now, MJS said:

And we don't have to worry about Tyreek Hill in the playoffs anymore.

 

But let's not forget that McDermott's first draft pick in Buffalo was Tre White in the first round. McDermott, despite his track record with secondaries, must know he needs some additional talent there.

McD has always had one elite cover guy and then a JAG on the other side. Tre filled the elite role.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

Typical Bills fan fashion…can’t even comprehend the possibility of this team taking an offensive player in the first round. 

McD has always had one elite cover guy and then a JAG on the other side. Tre filled the elite role.

White is going to miss some time, and even when he comes back may take some time to get back to where he was.

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

White is going to miss some time, and even when he comes back may take some time to get back to where he was.

There are rounds besides the first. That’s pretty much the gist. Don’t force a pick for need. Also…if you even bother reading the article, it says that McD rarely forces rookies into starting. If that’s true, then the rookie corner will likely not start for at least a couple weeks anyways. The Tre argument is kinda shot to heck by that. So basically, it’ll be a vet and Dane to start the season no matter what. 

[John from Riverside]

14 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Why would you presume the only way for the Bills to avoid that scenario is to draft a CB in the 1st round?  Good god, man, CBs are available in rounds other than the 1st and there a bunch of veterans out there to sign post-draft.

I dont want to overdraft a player.   The CBs I am looking at in the 1st round are very specific.  If not there then BPA.....I do NOT subscribe to whirlnuts "BUT KC does it this way" philosophy.

 

 

[eball]

Annnnnnd, straight from the horse's mouth:

 

Bills GM Brandon Beane said he doesn't think CB is a position where if they don't get one early that they won't get a good one later on.

[Magox]

We're definitely getting a CB with one of our premium draft picks.  I would say CB is the most likely selection at this point, but I don't believe they will reach too much to get one with the 1st pick.   

 

If the Bills can get a quality/serviceable veteran CB in FA, then the likelihood of a CB in the 1st round drops.

 

I would love to see the Bills get a stud WR with the 1st pick, but same principle should apply, to not reach to get one.  There are a lot of good WR's to be had in the 2nd/4th round.

 

If we can get a WR and CB with two of the first three picks I will be a very happy camper.

[whorlnut]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I dont want to overdraft a player.   The CBs I am looking at in the 1st round are very specific.  If not there then BPA.....I do NOT subscribe to whirlnuts "BUT KC does it this way" philosophy.

 

 

First round should always be BPA. Drafting for a need is how teams miss out on elite prospects. Especially at the end of the first. 

1 minute ago, eball said:

Annnnnnd, straight from the horse's mouth:

 

Bills GM Brandon Beane said he doesn't think CB is a position where if they don't get one early that they won't get a good one later on.

This. I mean there is no reason to smokescreen this. They have a history of doing it this way at corner. They feel confident in Tre’s recovery and progress. They also said that today. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

That’s my point though…get weapons that help Allen instead of putting it all on him. Make his life as easy as possible. Keep stacking long term weapons on offense. We saw too many times last year that he literally won the game on his own. He was the leading rusher way too often. That isn’t sustainable. 

Totally agree. The defense is good enough. We can get by with a Jag at CB2…which is exactly what every McD led defense has done back to his days in Carolina. And he is the best in the league at getting the most out of DBs. 

The defense isn't good enuf.  And wasn't last year.  That's why we got torched by the Chiefs at the end of the playoff game.  And by the Bucs in December.  We are a good team.  But there have been lots of good teams in the NFL over the years.  I think you are putting a whole lot of faith in McDermott and Frazier to coach up mediocre players.  The whole idea that Levi Wallace was good enuf is just a fallacy.  He was beat plenty in his time w the Bills.  Coaching is important.  But talent wins.  And we could use more talent at CB and LB.  Hopefully we see a trade of Edmunds and new reinforcements are on the way at CB and LB.  There you go.

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

There are rounds besides the first. That’s pretty much the gist. Don’t force a pick for need. Also…if you even bother reading the article, it says that McD rarely forces rookies into starting. If that’s true, then the rookie corner will likely not start for at least a couple weeks anyways. The Tre argument is kinda shot to heck by that. So basically, it’ll be a vet and Dane to start the season no matter what. 

Until we get that vet on a contract.........

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They’re going to draft as their board dictates. Positions not high on their board is short, QB, K, and P.  Everything else is in play at 25. Ok no long snappers.

So....... You're saying we won't be drafting Araiza in the 1st? 

[Warcodered]

20 minutes ago, eball said:

Annnnnnd, straight from the horse's mouth:

 

Bills GM Brandon Beane said he doesn't think CB is a position where if they don't get one early that they won't get a good one later on.

I mean he is a known blabbermouth, just can't keep his plans secret.

[LEBills]

I don’t think we need to draft a CB in round 1.

 

But historically, the only year our first draft pick was not a defensive player was 2018 when we drafted Josh. And we still traded up in the first to draft a defensive player, Tremaine. So 4/5 drafts have resulted in a defensive player as the first pick.

 

Its doubtful we draft another DLineman after all the investment we have made there recently. Drafting a first round LB or Safety probably signals the Bills intentions towards Tremaine and Poyer past this year which may not be a good look for team chemistry. 
 

so that leaves CB.

 

The Bills could surprise us and go offense in RD1, but CB is definitely what makes sense from needs and their patterns over the last 5 years

[Einstein's Dog]

2 hours ago, Magox said:

If the Bills can get a quality/serviceable veteran CB in FA, then the likelihood of a CB in the 1st round drops.

 

I think that the choice of FA CB may depend on what happens in the draft.  

 

If a stud WR falls and no CB is chosen until late, the FO will probably invest more and in the FA CB.  I don't know how they value the CBs but they might trade for Bradberry or invest in Fuller.

 

If they get a CB early (say Booth),  the FO may then look for a less expensive type, either short term vet CB - Sherman or the injury plagued K King/Callahan.

[BigAl2526]

I don't think drafting a cornerback at #25 is a slam dunk, but I think it is more likely than any other single position.  It could still be less than 50/50 odds even if it is more likely than offensive lineman or linebacker etc.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

The defense isn't good enuf.  And wasn't last year.  That's why we got torched by the Chiefs at the end of the playoff game.  And by the Bucs in December.  We are a good team.  But there have been lots of good teams in the NFL over the years.  I think you are putting a whole lot of faith in McDermott and Frazier to coach up mediocre players.  The whole idea that Levi Wallace was good enuf is just a fallacy.  He was beat plenty in his time w the Bills.  Coaching is important.  But talent wins.  And we could use more talent at CB and LB.  Hopefully we see a trade of Edmunds and new reinforcements are on the way at CB and LB.  There you go.

We could use more talent a WR, RB, OL and DE too.  

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Lots of opinions in this post…

Well lets go over those opinions

 

"The HC is a defensive coordinator"......FACT

 

Because he is a defensive coordinator he prioritizes defense.....lets take a look at those first round picks the last what.....four years?  Defensive players

 

Once again this is not about what you would do...this is about what the bills are going to do.  

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

And we don't have to worry about Tyreek Hill in the playoffs anymore.

 

But let's not forget that McDermott's first draft pick in Buffalo was Tre White in the first round. McDermott, despite his track record with secondaries, must know he needs some additional talent there.

 

 

I think the difference between now and 2017 was that McDermott felt like he had to do a full re-tool of his secondary.

 

The 2016 Bills defense featured 2 quality man cover CB's in Gilmore and Darby but the safety situation was a black hole..........they were the weak link of Rex defense.

 

So they spent real money on 2 safeties..........they are viewed in retrospect as value deals but the deal Poyer got in particular was out of left field.

 

Then they (carelessly) let Gilmore leave without a tag and trade..........and were left with nobody who fit the scheme at CB.

 

White was zone CB1 in that 2017 draft..........some saw him as a reach because he didn't have great man cover skills.........but his availability at #27 in 2017 would be the near equivalent of zone CB1 Sauce Gardner being available at #25 this year........but at the time a zone CB had less value than today, IMO.

 

Now,  with some offenses capable of lining up three guys who would have all been WR1 types in 2017...........I think teams are willing to invest a bit more in a zone CB because it's not practical to play man against some teams.  

 

So taking White was not just like taking a flyer on McDuffie/Gordon or even the well regarded Booth Jr............I think in this draft White would have gone between picks 10-15.

 

I just don't expect the Bills to get THAT kind of value at zone CB at #25 this year..............but, as always, there are A LOT of good zone CB prospects.

 

You don't have to take one in round 1 if you can't get THE one.

[whorlnut]

20 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well lets go over those opinions

 

"The HC is a defensive coordinator"......FACT

 

Because he is a defensive coordinator he prioritizes defense.....lets take a look at those first round picks the last what.....four years?  Defensive players

 

Once again this is not about what you would do...this is about what the bills are going to do.  

You are wrong and he is right is an opinion…unless you have a history book from the future that you would like to share with the rest of us…

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

You are wrong and he is right is an opinion…unless you have a history book from the future that you would like to share with the rest of us…

.........................