Big Turk Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) Really good breakdown... Both threw the ball from the 42 yard line on the opposite hash... Mac Jones ball took 3.1 seconds to get 1 yard deep in the end zone. Josh Allen's ball took 2.5 seconds to get 7 yards deep in the end zone. One was an INT, the other a TD. One of these things is not like the others... Edited April 9, 2022 by Big Turk 19 1 1 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Love it. Enjoy your career, McCorkle. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) Interestingly the AFC east have two noodle armed starting quarterbacks in Mac Jones and Teddy Bridgewater Edited April 9, 2022 by DJB 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 @PatsFanNH will not like this blatant evidence. I’m sure he will stick to his guns that Belichick wants McCorkle over Allen. All kidding aside, this is exactly why guys like Jones and Fitz have the ceiling they do. They just don’t have the arm. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 25 minutes ago, Big Turk said: Really good breakdown... Both threw the ball from the 42 yard line on the opposite hash... Mac Jones ball took 3.1 seconds to get 1 yard deep in the end zone. Josh Allen's ball took 2.5 seconds to get 7 yards deep in the end zone. One was an INT, the other a TD. One of these things is not like the others... Lol I mean sure, but Mac’s ball a little more accurately placed outside is a TD. And Sanders was way more open. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maybe Someday Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, DJB said: Interestingly the AFC east have two noodle armed starting quarterbacks in Mac Jones and Jacoby Brissett I think you mean Tua? Brissett plays for the Browns now and was the backup in Miami last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, FireChans said: Lol I mean sure, but Mac’s ball a little more accurately placed outside is a TD. And Sanders was way more open. Yes if McCorkle only had the arm to do that ha ? 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Romes Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 That’s why I was so optimistic even Josh’s rookie year. He’s so huge and his arm is so strong, that what looks like simple dump off for him is often a 25 plus yard dart downfield. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJB Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, Maybe Someday said: I think you mean Tua? Brissett plays for the Browns now and was the backup in Miami last year. It was meant to be a joke but i was mistaken on Brissett / Teddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Has someone actually argued that arm strength doesn't matter at all? Has zero impact? I know that arm strength is only ONE factor, but of course it matters. This seems like a straw man argument to me. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 9, 2022 Author Share Posted April 9, 2022 46 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said: @PatsFanNH will not like this blatant evidence. I’m sure he will stick to his guns that Belichick wants McCorkle over Allen. All kidding aside, this is exactly why guys like Jones and Fitz have the ceiling they do. They just don’t have the arm. Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy. 46 minutes ago, FireChans said: Lol I mean sure, but Mac’s ball a little more accurately placed outside is a TD. And Sanders was way more open. Or of the ball wasn't a Super Tecmo Bowl lollipop throw and got there a half second sooner? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonyBoy Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 I agree with your video and stat post. However! Bills fans and NFL fans would say, that was a ridiculous closing speed interception & perception by Hyde!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eSJayDee Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 59 minutes ago, FireChans said: Lol I mean sure, but Mac’s ball a little more accurately placed outside is a TD. And Sanders was way more open. I don't think he was any more open. Hyde was able to close & make the INT cuz he was moving (much) faster than the ball. Sanders (still) had no one near him cuz the ball got there so quickly. More outside might/probably would've done it but throwing the ball w/ more velocity & less arc definitely would've made it impossible to make a defensive play on it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 56 minutes ago, FireChans said: Lol I mean sure, but Mac’s ball a little more accurately placed outside is a TD. And Sanders was way more open. The Pats receiver would have been "way more open" too if Mac's pass got there in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.1. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Big Turk said: Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy. Or of the ball wasn't a Super Tecmo Bowl lollipop throw and got there a half second sooner? Yeah sure that would have helped. A more accurate ball would’ve helped too. Josh threw a dart but it was well behind Sanders. Good thing he was open and the ball got there fast. 13 minutes ago, eSJayDee said: I don't think he was any more open. Hyde was able to close & make the INT cuz he was moving (much) faster than the ball. Sanders (still) had no one near him cuz the ball got there so quickly. More outside might/probably would've done it but throwing the ball w/ more velocity & less arc definitely would've made it impossible to make a defensive play on it. Hyde is also in position because of the defensive alignment. Josh was throwing against single coverage outside. Jones was not. The Pats safety was nowhere close. 12 minutes ago, TPS said: The Pats receiver would have been "way more open" too if Mac's pass got there in 2.5 seconds instead of 3.1. Hyde made a great play but he was also helping over the top. The DB had no such help against Sanders. You can even see the safety 20 yards away. Edited April 9, 2022 by FireChans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 13 minutes ago, FireChans said: Yeah sure that would have helped. A more accurate ball would’ve helped too. Josh threw a dart but it was well behind Sanders. Good thing he was open and the ball got there fast. Hyde is also in position because of the defensive alignment. Josh was throwing against single coverage outside. Jones was not. The Pats safety was nowhere close. Hyde made a great play but he was also helping over the top. The DB had no such help against Sanders. You can even see the safety 20 yards away. Allen looks off the safety and his throw is freakish in that it has very little air under it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 1 hour ago, DJB said: Interestingly the AFC east have two noodle armed starting quarterbacks in Mac Jones and Teddy Bridgewater Two physically limited qbs and no major defensive changes after getting torched by josh Allen a bunch of times lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said: Two physically limited qbs and no major defensive changes after getting torched by josh Allen a bunch of times lol No need for that they’ll go toe to toe with Allen ( this time 🤔) Edited April 9, 2022 by Putin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 11 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: Allen looks off the safety and his throw is freakish in that it has very little air under it. Jones pump faked but it didn’t fool Hyde. I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s play was unreal. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Here's the thing about arm strength.. it's overrated until you don't have enough It was the best attribute for John elway, and brett favre and Rodgers... The ability to uncork balls that defensive backs can't get to The velocity to whiz it past people's heads is huge at the NFL level 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, Putin said: No need for that they’ll go toe to toe with Allen ( this time 🤔) I’m pretty shocked with how they’re building their teams honestly…feels like they’re playing for a wildcard. I would’ve revamped the defense rather than signing tyreek if I was Miami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said: I’m pretty shocked with how they’re building their teams honestly…feels like they’re playing for a wildcard. I would’ve revamped the defense rather than signing tyreek if I was Miami The thought is we CAN NOT AND WILL NOT STOP JA17 , so let’s try and maybe 🤔 score more points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 The Pats fans trying to refute the video in the comments on Twitter are a hoot. Trying to claim that arm strength isn’t important, that Mac is the better QB because “his decision making is better”, people legitimately saying they’d take Mac over Josh if given the choice. Like…homerism is a hell of a drug. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Logic said: The Pats fans trying to refute the video in the comments on Twitter are a hoot. Trying to claim that arm strength isn’t important, that Mac is the better QB because “his decision making is better”, people legitimately saying they’d take Mac over Josh if given the choice. Like…homerism is a hell of a drug. How delusional can one be to even entertain a thought like that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, FireChans said: Jones pump faked but it didn’t fool Hyde. I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s play was unreal. You can also fool safeties with your eyes and Allen has become quite good at that. I think the guy in the video was spot on in showing how arm strength was the most important factor in those two plays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said: @PatsFanNH will not like this blatant evidence. I’m sure he will stick to his guns that Belichick wants McCorkle over Allen. All kidding aside, this is exactly why guys like Jones and Fitz have the ceiling they do. They just don’t have the arm. Fitzpatrick and Jones arm are nothing alike. The difference is Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger always attempting to make plays even when there is no need. He can throw ball far and fast as his career has shown. Jones is game manager. 3 hours ago, Big Turk said: Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy. There are coaches who prefer "my way" then "gunslinger" which Allen is of the latter. They cannot adapt or they will not adapt to Allen's mentality. Those type of HCs/OCs should not be coaching in NFL. Edited April 10, 2022 by Limeaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 12 hours ago, FireChans said: Yeah sure that would have helped. A more accurate ball would’ve helped too. Josh threw a dart but it was well behind Sanders. Good thing he was open and the ball got there fast. Hyde is also in position because of the defensive alignment. Josh was throwing against single coverage outside. Jones was not. The Pats safety was nowhere close. Hyde made a great play but he was also helping over the top. The DB had no such help against Sanders. You can even see the safety 20 yards away. I think you missed the obvious point of the video: One was open and the lack of arm strength allowed the Defense to make a play on the ball -- he was wide open, but the under-throw closes his openness. In the other, he was open and arm strength allowed him to stay open and take advantage of the openness. Don't over think in, on every play there are mutilple variables that could make it successful or not, on these two examples, the obvious point is that the arm strength of the QBs makes a huge difference. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 13 hours ago, Big Turk said: Literally no coach ever would want MJ10 over Allen. Suggesting otherwise is idiocy. Or of the ball wasn't a Super Tecmo Bowl lollipop throw and got there a half second sooner? I am not debating that with you but there is a certain Pats fan on here who will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 14 hours ago, Big Turk said: Mac Jones ball took 3.1 seconds to get 1 yard deep in the end zone. Josh Allen's ball took 2.5 seconds to get 7 yards deep in the end zone. what this guy fails to see in his analysis EVEN FLOATERS score points. Not every pass needs to be on a frozen rope. one of Josh’s areas of improvement was the need of touch on his throws. 12 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Here's the thing about arm strength.. it's overrated until you don't have enough Yup —— I am on no way crediting Mac for anything Cover1 just isn’t as smart as he thinks he is. Had he stuck around I could at least argue about his position but he ran away because Ho didn’t like people arguing his breakdowns of games or practices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 (edited) @Cover 1 you want to discuss this poop analogy? oops poor analogy semantics matters I guess Edited April 11, 2022 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 The premise of this thread is silly. Arm strength is only one factor that contributes to making a great QB just like speed is only one factor that makes a great WR. If arm strength was the most important thing, Jeff George would be in the HOF just as if speed was the key to making a great WR, none of the track stars drafted into the NFL over the last two decades would have crashed and burned instead of being rarities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 13 hours ago, The Dean said: Has someone actually argued that arm strength doesn't matter at all? Has zero impact? I know that arm strength is only ONE factor, but of course it matters. This seems like a straw man argument to me. Yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayjent Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie. Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be. I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year. The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile. Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though. Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team. There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert. You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose. But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward. Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough. Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
without a drought Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 That was one of the best passes I've seen Mac throw. Not a great result for him, but nice throw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 Come on now. Greg is only pointing out how arm strength mattered for this one comparison, The 3.1 vs, 2.5 seconds was a big deal in these two throws. But, the biggest deficiency in Josh Allen's 2019 season was his inability to hit deep ball go routes. Most were overthrown and too flat. He was near the bottom of the league on those throws. I thought his arm strength was more of a problem on these because he has a high variance of launch angle and velocity to put the ball 50 yards down field while the average NFL QB has a much narrower range of options which is easier to master. Add in a number of windier home games which added an extra variable to the calculation and Josh pretty much missed on all of them until later in the season when he hit some to Knox and Brown. In general, the Mac Jones type of throw has a greater chance to be completed, imo. Here's a better example. The number of other QBs able to make this throw is near to zero, Go ahead Kurt Warner, complain about his footwork. Allen to Brown should have been TD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 15 hours ago, The Dean said: Has someone actually argued that arm strength doesn't matter at all? Has zero impact? I know that arm strength is only ONE factor, but of course it matters. This seems like a straw man argument to me. Agree. Its only one factor. If Allen's accuracy had not improved so much his arm strength and running ability alone wpuld not have made him MVP caliber. He really is in a class all of his own now. Cam Newton, Roethlisberger, and Elway comparisons are interesting but in each case they are no longer on point. Rodgers and Mahommes are only comparables at this point in terms of the total QB package and even there Allen has 2-3 x as many rush yards per season as those two. If he stays healthy he will redefine the QB position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 10, 2022 Author Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Ayjent said: Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie. Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be. I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year. The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile. Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though. Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team. There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert. You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose. But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward. Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough. Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO. Mac Jones is the high floor, lower ceiling type of game manager QB. Smart player that is pro ready early but has very limited upside. 11 hours ago, Limeaid said: Fitzpatrick and Jones arm are nothing alike. The difference is Fitzpatrick is a gunslinger always attempting to make plays even when there is no need. He can throw ball far and fast as his career has shown. Jones is game manager. There are coaches who prefer "my way" then "gunslinger" which Allen is of the latter. They cannot adapt or they will not adapt to Allen's mentality. Those type of HCs/OCs should not be coaching in NFL. Allen has become less gunslinger and more make the smart play, which is why he is so dangerous because now no matter what you try and do on a play, you lose on defense. He will take the check down, he will beat you deep, he will hit the seam routes, he will scramble when everything is covered, he will escape and make a play even when you have the perfect play all to stop him from running and have everything covered. Allen is literally unstoppable, the best you can hope for is to limit the damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 Simple idea Allen’s ball goes further faster. while this is all good and I truly mean that it does not simply translate to Lombardi trophies. Josh has two more critical strengths: 1 - competitiveness that is second to none 2 - a burning desire to improve his game His arm talent without those two factors probably leaves him in the middle of the NFL QB herd. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceman_16 Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 14 hours ago, FireChans said: Jones pump faked but it didn’t fool Hyde. I think it’s extremely oversimplifying it by saying it’s just arm strength is the difference between the two plays. Micah’s play was unreal. I agree to some degree. They were different defensive alignments....however, subract over a second of time on Jones' throw and it is most likely a TD. I think THAT is the main point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 10, 2022 Share Posted April 10, 2022 1 hour ago, Ayjent said: Mac Jones is a limited QB in physical attributes, but he played pretty well for a rookie. Thing is, I don't know how much better he can be. I feel like he is going to be a capable starter because he is not flustered in the pocket and makes good accurate throws, but I don't really see him taking a huge step forward from his rookie year. The Pats could have done much worse with a QB pick, and he was an improvement over Cam Newton by a mile. Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are in their own stratosphere of talent, though. Yes the old dogs of Brady and Rodgers are still impressive as hell, but any GM in the league would take Allen or Mahomes if they could pick any QB in the league to put on their team. There is a tier below with Burrow, Brady, Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Lamar Jackson, and Justin Herbert. You could throw Matt Stafford in there as well I suppose. But then there are the rest IMO - guys who are decent, but are going to hold you back as much as they push you forward. Some are definitely better than others, and an argument can be made for guys like Carr, Watson, Ryan, Murray, and a few others, being a notch above the pack as well, but I don't trust any of that group to be consistent enough. Mac Jones isn't even in that group IMO. Herbert may already be in the discussion with Allen and Mahomes and certainly will be if he has another year like the last two and a playoff win or two. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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