Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[papazoid]

wait....isn't calling past employers to check on references normal ?

 

why would it be unusual for someone in the giants organization to call BB and/or kraft

[Buffalo_Stampede]

46 minutes ago, papazoid said:

wait....isn't calling past employers to check on references normal ?

 

why would it be unusual for someone in the giants organization to call BB and/or kraft

The best thing to do was to be quiet after the lawsuit. Don't put personal opinions out there until the lawsuit is settled.

 

My guess is he was never serious about continuing the suit, he just wanted to make a point. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Hopefully he stays the course and helps change the views of owners in the NFL.

 

 

[HamSandwhich]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have no idea what "that parlance" means in this context.

 

Let's start here, and maybe we can at least see where we disagree.

1)  57.5% of NFL players are African American, 9.4% identify as "two or more races, and 24.9% identify as white  (source: Statista)

2) According to this source, 35-40% of assistant coaches are black

3) Last year, only 3/32 head coaches were black (9%) and now 1/32 (3%)

 

So of the relevant population - those who know the most about playing and coaching American football - more than half of the players are black, more than 1/3 of the overall coaching population is black, but 3-9% of the top level HC are black.

 

I don't think you have to be a stats genius to realize that something non-random, something systematic, is probably at work there.

 

But what?  Is it that owners are sitting around saying "we don't want to hire black guys"?

 

I personally and strongly doubt that.  I could be wrong, but I think the overwhelming majority of folks aren't prejudiced in their thinking, and that would include NFL owners and execs (some are - we've seen some flashes of it here in these threads).  I think if you hooked them up to a lie detector test and asked them "do you believe a black coach can have all the qualities needed to coach an NFL team to a Superbowl win?" they would say "yes" and the needle wouldn't waver.  (Maybe 1 or 2 would).

 

The challenge is that unlike the athletic qualities and demonstrated in-game abilities that showcase a player's talent, the qualities that make a winning HC are a lot more subjective, and harder to measure.  A partial list could be made - inspires people to follow him, able to hold people accountable, very well organized, great football mind, able to lead and coordinate the activities of a group of people, great communicator, able to work well with peers (like the GM and FO), etcetera.  How important each of those qualities are, and how well a specific individual exemplifies them would probably be seen as variable. 

 

So it becomes a subjective process, and to some extent governed by "gut feeling" - Russ Brandon/Doug Whaley's "you'll just KNOW" advice to the Pegulas - rather than measurables.  The GM wants a guy he feels comfortable with.  The Owner doesn't want to look like a fool, so he doesn't want to hire someone who will crash-n-burn (unless he wants the team to tank).

 

So then you ask, who are these people who elicit the feeling of "he's right, I just KNOW" or "I can really work with this guy" (from the GM) or "I'm confident this won't be a mistake" (from the owner)?  They are typically going to be either people who have been head coaches with some success - the "coaching carousel" that gives fired head coaches like Gase or Rivera a fast track to a second chance - or people who have connections with and "click" with the hiring team so that they feel comfortable.

 

And who are those people?  Typically, they're people who we "click" with, or feel akin to - because they are "like us" in some way.

 

It's not that the hiring team is consciously prejudiced.  It's that when you have a subjective process, your unconscious beliefs and assumptions become part of the process - get "baked in".

 

OK, that's my best effort to reprise.  Not saying the owners are racists or making consciously racist decisions.  Saying that the results indicate some form of biased decision making is almost certainly at work.  Using my own experience as a hiring manager/interviewer and a bystander to higher-level decisions to give understanding of how bias gets into decisions without conscious intent.

I should say the common parlance of our times, being systemic racism.

 

Your explanation is fair and as objective as it can be given that a lot of what you’re talking about is subjective. The fact that you’re investigating and really thinning trough it rather than just jumping to a conclusion should be commended (not that you need my affirmation). All too often people seem to jump to conclusion and want tk immediately say racism or systemic racism as a lazy way out without investigating what’s actually happening. This causes policies like “disparate impact” policies in work places simply because there is an inequality, even if it wasn’t racist to be used to sue an employer because of the way things shook out from that policy (My hr background talking here). Basically they say the system is racist and that’s what’s happening rather than looking at root causes and making sure. 
 

It is in fact human nature to be around people that make you feel comfortable and I think you’re right that it’s not that they’re racist, just that they want someone first who can get the job done and most qualified and then that will mesh with the organization the best. As long as you’re basing that on individual personality, that is all above the line. I would contend it is about personality, but if it were to be found racism was a big part the process (would have to be clear, which I don’t think this is nearly clear) then of course throw everything at them as harshly as possible. 
 

I actually think you and I are very close if not spot on in our thinking. How do you flesh out the thoughts a person has and keeps hidden though? I hope we never get that answer because that would be a truly dystopian world, think Minority Report. Racism is a consideration but only one of many different reasons why, not the forefront of every reason. 

[Coach Tuesday]

Not for nothing, Ross is still listed as being on the Board of RISE:

 

https://risetowin.org/who-we-are/index.html#board-of-directors

 

Of all the people to go after, Ross has spent years championing diversity efforts in sports and was owner of the only NFL team with a Black GM, coach and QB during the last few years (ever?)…

[Mr. WEO]

How dumb is Hue Jackson?   On the radio yesterday saying Haslam deposited $750K in his bank account, but he didn't tank.

 

Flores's people running away from Hue right now.

[The Wiz]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

How dumb is Hue Jackson?   On the radio yesterday saying Haslam deposited $750K in his bank account, but he didn't tank.

 

Flores's people running away from Hue right now.

Was the follow up question, "so you went 1-31, while TRYING to win?"

[JaCrispy]

From what I’ve seen so far, Flores has no case against the Giants...His argument is all based on emotion, not legality...

[zow2]

on ESPN Get Up,  they are debating whether Flores will still get a head coaching job in the NFL, maybe even this cycle.  Um, I don't think so.  You can't blame the Texans, Saints, Jags, etc...  Why would they want to bring this drama into their organizations?

[BuffaloBillyG]

8 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

If you haven't read Hue Jackson's latest contributions you really need to...

 

Is this for real? 

Just go to his Twitter and read his replies to people. Comedy gold. 

 

At this point Flores would be wise to bribe Jackson $100k to shut up and go away

[Dr. Who]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The best thing to do was to be quiet after the lawsuit. Don't put personal opinions out there until the lawsuit is settled.

 

My guess is he was never serious about continuing the suit, he just wanted to make a point. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Hopefully he stays the course and helps change the views of owners in the NFL.

 

 

He potentially destroyed his career to make a point? Very Captain Ahab.

[Bangarang]

34 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

From what I’ve seen so far, Flores has no case against the Giants...His argument is all based on emotion, not legality...

I’d say Flores has no case at all. 

[muppy]

4 hours ago, Billznut said:

With the way Flores threw Belichick under the bus in the last day or so with his additional comments, I’d be highly shocked if Flores is ever near Belichick or Patriotsland again. 

I just saw this headline on yahoo

 

As Brian Flores speaks, the deeper he draws Bill Belichick into his class-action lawsuit against the NFL

Charles Robinson

·NFL columnist

Thu, February 3, 2022, 9:08 PM·5 min read

 

the html link wont post to click article not sure why-m

Edited February 4, 2022 by muppy

[Mr. WEO]

57 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Was the follow up question, "so you went 1-31, while TRYING to win?"

Hiring Hue Jackson IS the tank

[Buffalo_Stampede]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

He potentially destroyed his career to make a point? Very Captain Ahab.

He only destroyed his career if he's lying.

 

The sham interviews have been talked about for years. It's the other stuff that's really bad.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[JaCrispy]

12 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I’d say Flores has no case at all. 

You may be right...I’m just waiting see if anything else comes out of the Dolphins situation, to be sure...that seems like a story that has many layers...
 

That being said, I’m still not sure anything can be done legally...it seems more of an internal affairs type of situation imo...

Edited February 4, 2022 by JaCrispy

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Not for nothing, Ross is still listed as being on the Board of RISE:

 

https://risetowin.org/who-we-are/index.html#board-of-directors

 

Of all the people to go after, Ross has spent years championing diversity efforts in sports and was owner of the only NFL team with a Black GM, coach and QB during the last few years (ever?)…

 

To be honest, there wasn't one claim made in the complaint alleging racism on the part of the Ross or the Dolphins. The only thing that even remotely addresses it is the following:

 

"From that point forward, Mr. Flores was ostracized and ultimately he was fired. He was subsequently defamed throughout the media and the League as he was labeled by the Dolphins brass as someone who was difficult to work with. This is reflective of an all too familiar “angry black man” stigma that is often casted upon Black men who are strong in their morals and convictions while white men are coined as passionate for those very same attributes."

 

It is also interesting that most of the talk after Flores was fired, regarding conflict within the organization, revolved around his poor relationship and conflicts with Chris Grier, who is black. There were numerous reports that Flores went to Ross to try to erode Grier's decision making powers.

 

The more I read and hear about Flores leads me to believe he is not the man of "strong morals and convictions" he and his legal team are trying to portray. He rose through the ranks and achieved all he wanted to achieve in becoming a head coach - and held that position for 3 years -  and, by his own behavior, demonstrated he would have willingly accepted the head coaching job with the Giants and never said a word about the issues that violated his "strong morals and convictions." I have no doubt he was pissed about not getting the Giant's job and the way he perceives the process transpired. There just is no evidence in the complaint that anything that happened to him was the result of racism. His actions appear, to me, to be more personally vindictive than anything to achieve a "greater good."

[Bangarang]

20 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

You may be right...I’m just waiting see if anything else comes out of the Dolphins situation, to be sure...that seems like a story that has many layers...
 

That being said, I’m still not sure anything can be done legally...it seems more of an internal affairs type of situation imo...

You’re right, I forgot about the whole paying him to lose thing. Not sure how I could forget that. 

[Doc]

9 hours ago, FarrellsFinest said:

Apparently the bills knew it too according to the text. At the end of the day there is no fixing it. You have the right to hire whoever you want. Reguardless of qualifacation. There needs to be more black owners. When jayz was trying to become a owner people called him a sellout!? So it is what it is. 

 

Where specifically?  But even if they did, it doesn't mean much for them.  It's not them breaking the rule.

 

8 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

 

So in English he doesn’t have proof, wow if this is all Flores has then he’s screwed. 

 

Depends on the credibility of his witnesses.  

[Nester]

The being paid to lose accusations are going to have ramifications now that NFL is in league with legal sports betting.

 

Draft Kings is going to have Ross knocked off…

[Doc]

Giving teams draft picks for hiring minority coaches is the best solution to this.  

[2003Contenders]

Does anyone know anything about Flores' legal team? The fact that they are letting him speak while a lawsuit is going on and the fact that the lawsuit itself is all over the map -- alleging a variety of things against multiple teams that have nothing to do with racism -- makes me wonder if this whole thing is more about forwarding a political agenda rather than truly trying to win a lawsuit.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He only destroyed his career if he's lying.

 

The sham interviews have been talked about for years. It's the other stuff that's really bad.

He better have strong evidence, because if its equivocal or purely subject to interpretation, NFL lawyers are going to eat him alive.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, papazoid said:

wait....isn't calling past employers to check on references normal ?

 

why would it be unusual for someone in the giants organization to call BB and/or kraft

 

Or for that matter, McDermott or Pegula

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Where specifically?  But even if they did, it doesn't mean much for them.  It's not them breaking the rule.

 

 

Depends on the credibility of his witnesses.  

it’s still all hearsay apparently. His case didn’t take long to completely unravel.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

41 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Does anyone know anything about Flores' legal team? The fact that they are letting him speak while a lawsuit is going on and the fact that the lawsuit itself is all over the map -- alleging a variety of things against multiple teams that have nothing to do with racism -- makes me wonder if this whole thing is more about forwarding a political agenda rather than truly trying to win a lawsuit.

 

They're a legit "heavy hitter" law firm, and Flores approached them.  They're apparently typically in it for the $$

 

But several upthread who sound knowledgeable have questioned whether they have the clients interest at heart - in general, and in the way this case was framed.

 

Typically when you have a lawyer and his client doing the talk-show rounds, it's because they don't necessarily want to try the case, they want the "court of public opinion" to force a settlement.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

it’s still all hearsay apparently. His case didn’t take long to completely unravel.

 

What I see is people jumping to conclusions on both sides of the issue. 

 

Pat McAfee (surprise!) did a show which basically took everything the lawsuit alleges as fact.

 

Others, like you, are assuming it "completely unravelled" there's nothing there.

 

I believe that the lawyers wouldn't have filed the case if there weren't more substance to it than has been revealed so far, so I think "wait and see what the evidence actually is before forming a conclusion" is the right call.  Belichick's texts alone are hearsay, but who he spoke to on the Giants and Bills, and what he heard, still matter. 

 

Overall, I stand by what I said upthread: it reads to me like the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this any more" lawsuit, not something that is carefully researched and constructed to hold up well in court.

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They're a legit "heavy hitter" law firm, and Flores approached them.  They're apparently typically in it for the $$

 

But several upthread who sound knowledgeable have questioned whether they have the clients interest at heart - in general, and in the way this case was framed.

 

Typically when you have a lawyer and his client doing the talk-show rounds, it's because they don't necessarily want to try the case, they want the "court of public opinion" to force a settlement.

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

[HappyDays]

16 hours ago, Chaos said:

The NFL is driven 100% by merit/winning.  The reason the league is 450% overrepresented by minorities in the players ranks is because they give teams the best chance to win.

 

Then what is the reason for white people being overrepresented in coaching hires? That's the question. I don't think you or anyone else in this thread believes that white people are overrepresented in the coaching ranks because they inherently have more merit as coaches. So there must be some other reason. White players are not given less of a chance than black players, we all know that; but on a statistical basis black coaches appear to be given less of a chance than white coaches.

[Lfod]

I googled how many minority coaches won a Superbowl out of curiosity. 

[Jim Bob]

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9mZWVkLw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9wL25mbC1mYWNlcy1yYWNpYWwtZGlzY3JpbWluYXRpb24tbGF3c3VpdA

 

This was an interesting podcast that goes over legal cases and they took a look at the Flores lawsuit.

 

One thing that was crazy was how many NFL coaches and coordinators are related to current and former NFL coaches.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better". 

 

If the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

[benderbender]

Why is there no regard for other minorities? Women? Age, sexuality, disability, and veterans? Shouldn’t there be a quota for them as well? 

[TheFunPolice]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better".  But if the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Jackson already walked back his claim.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better".  But if the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

I basically agree. The hiring inequity can be separated out from the paying to lose which cannot be tolerated without putting the whole league in question. The former is complicated and so ideologically charged it becomes polemical so there is more heat than light. I sure don't know how to resolve it, but it seems to me rather than focus on head coaches, there needs to be much more attention to placing minorities at the Coordinator level which is the best logical path to eventually becoming a head coach. Personally, I subscribe to MLK's dictum that one ought to be judged by the content of one's character and not by factors entirely outside anyone's control such as race or gender, but that remains largely aspirational and obviously other factors do become problematic in the real world.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Jim Bob said:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9mZWVkLw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9wL25mbC1mYWNlcy1yYWNpYWwtZGlzY3JpbWluYXRpb24tbGF3c3VpdA

 

This was an interesting podcast that goes over legal cases and they took a look at the Flores lawsuit.

 

One thing that was crazy was how many NFL coaches and coordinators are related to current and former NFL coaches.

 

Right.  And then you get to things like the rumor the Texans will hire Josh McCown, a former QB with like NO coaching experience at any level: Really?  You can't find a better choice with more experience at ANY level?  He would be like the poster-boy opposed to the concept that owners want to win at all costs and hire the best coaching talent they can get.

 

Or the hiring of re-tread coaches like Doug Pederson - and he's far from the most egregious example, as he did win a Superbowl with Nick Foles and got a single amazing year out of Carson Wentz.  After which his OC was hired by the Colts as HC, his QB coach was hired by the Vikings, the team exited the playoffs early, and Wentz fell apart and now seems irreparably broken, which casts some doubt (in my mind anyway) as to who was most responsible for that, but I digress

 

The point is, by the time NFL teams hire relatives of former coaches, retread coaches, offensive coordinators of current playoff teams, and the occasional Whisky Tango Foxtrot? hire like McCown 1) it's pretty hard to argue that some kind of process based on coaching experience and results is going down 2) there aren't a lot of openings left to give promising, well-qualified coordinators a shot.

 

 

[Jim Bob]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/04/arbitration-clause-could-quickly-derail-the-brian-flores-lawsuit/

 

This would be an interesting plot twist.

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  And then you get to things like the rumor the Texans will hire Josh McCown, a former QB with like NO coaching experience at any level: Really?  You can't find a better choice with more experience at ANY level?  He would be like the poster-boy opposed to the concept that owners want to win at all costs and hire the best coaching talent they can get.

 

Or the hiring of re-tread coaches like Doug Pederson - and he's far from the most egregious example, as he did win a Superbowl with Nick Foles and got a single amazing year out of Carson Wentz.  After which his OC was hired by the Colts as HC, his QB coach was hired by the Vikings, the team exited the playoffs early, and Wentz fell apart and now seems irreparably broken, which casts some doubt (in my mind anyway) as to who was most responsible for that, but I digress

 

The point is, by the time NFL teams hire relatives of former coaches, retread coaches, offensive coordinators of current playoff teams, and the occasional Whisky Tango Foxtrot? hire like McCown 1) it's pretty hard to argue that some kind of process based on coaching experience and results is going down 2) there aren't a lot of openings left to give promising, well-qualified coordinators a shot.

 

 

 

One thing they did say with regards to the Giants job was that the Giants defense that they didn't hire Flores because of Schoen's prior working relationship with Daboll and not because of Flores being a minority would be a strong argument.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I basically agree. The hiring inequity can be separated out from the paying to lose which cannot be tolerated without putting the whole league in question. The former is complicated and so ideologically charged it becomes polemical so there is more heat than light. I sure don't know how to resolve it, but it seems to me rather than focus on head coaches, there needs to be much more attention to placing minorities at the Coordinator level which is the best logical path to eventually becoming a head coach. Personally, I subscribe to MLK's dictum that one ought to be judged by the content of one's character and not by factors entirely outside anyone's control such as race or gender, but that remains largely aspirational and obviously other factors do become problematic in the real world.

 

Not just coordinators, but starting right at the lower-level assistants, and providing mentoring to prepare them for a step (mentoring for all).  As I understand it, mentoring for the next level is kind of hit and miss and depends on whether an individual guy finds people to take him under their wing.  The success that relatives of former coaches have is likely due (in part) to having built-in mentoring advising them what skills they need to build or improve and how to position themselves for the next step. (provide more consistent mentoring for all the assistants of any race or background, of course).

 

 

[muppy]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

BINGO imo this is a fight where the stakes and ramifications are sooo wide and potentially costly The NFL will do everything not to lose this. Dirty pool oh yessss both sides this is a War brewing here folks.  And the owner should lose his franchise if it is Proven he did what is alleged. That would be at least 1 likely ramification much less the potential for other lawsuits Lord have Mercy Doc.

 

m

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Why is there no regard for other minorities? Women? Age, sexuality, disability, and veterans? Shouldn’t there be a quota for them as well? 

 

This is a bad-faith argument. Instead of addressing a legitimate concern, you try to paint the concerned parties as not being concerned enough. Why do you think minorities have a more difficult time getting hired as head coaches? No one in this thread seems to disagree with that plain statistical fact. A lot of people are apparently uncomfortable asking why that fact is.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not just coordinators, but starting right at the lower-level assistants, and providing mentoring to prepare them for a step (mentoring for all).  As I understand it, mentoring for the next level is kind of hit and miss and depends on whether an individual guy finds people to take him under their wing.  The success that relatives of former coaches have is likely due (in part) to having built-in mentoring advising them what skills they need to build or improve and how to position themselves for the next step. (you provide more consistent mentoring for all the assistants of course).

 

 

The old guild system of the middle ages was designed to provide just this sort of progression from novice to master craftsman. The world of post-industrial individualism greatly increased choice and the geographical scope for talent, but it really vitiated all those soft forms of social integration that allowed persons to mature into excellence and prosper. It happens everywhere, but this is a good example in a relatively specialized ecosystem as it were.