A Lot of Bills stars Were at OTA's But 1 Star Was Not .

[Dopey]

38 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Did you catch that Bills-Browns game replay?  I watched Star in the first half.  He saw one double team in that half - where he got blown into the secondary and the RB ran through his gap.  Beyond that I saw one blocker handle him pretty easily.  He didn’t occupy two blockers, anchor well, keep the LBs clean or make any impact that I saw.  He was a lot better chasing plays laterally than I thought he’d be, but I didn’t see him make much of an impact with that either.

 

I know that’s just one half of one game, but when I’ve watched him in others I’ve seen the same.  If someone wants to point me to a game where he made a big, positive impact I’ll cue it up on GamePass. 

 Guys like him let others make impact plays. I watched games and payed close attention to star. I like what he brings to the table. So do the guys getting paid to make these decisions. Anyone could feel the void he left last year. Saw plenty "we miss star" comments throughout the season.

To your last sentence: Bills vs cowboys on Thanksgiving day. Star was a ⭐ that game.

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

 Guys like him let others make impact plays. I watched games and payed close attention to star. I like what he brings to the table. So do the guys getting paid to make these decisions. Anyone could feel the void he left last year. Saw plenty "we miss star" comments throughout the season.

To your last sentence: Bills vs cowboys on Thanksgiving day. Star was a ⭐ that game.

I’ll rewatch the Cowboys game, but in general I just have to disagree on Star (until I see some consistent proof that outweighs what I saw in multiple games).  As for guys getting paid to make these decisions, they make mistakes too.  Star’s initial contract was based on him playing like he did for most of his time in Carolina and I sure have not seen play close to that caliber.  Since then, the Bills have been stuck due to his initial contract, though they did see fit to reduce it.  We almost certainly have him for one more season so the best I can do is hope the year off did him well and that he balls out this year.  At minimum he should keep Oliver playing a lot more 3T which is a help in and of itself. 

[Dopey]

11 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

I’ll rewatch the Cowboys game, but in general I just have to disagree on Star (until I see some consistent proof that outweighs what I saw in multiple games).  As for guys getting paid to make these decisions, they make mistakes too.  Star’s initial contract was based on him playing like he did for most of his time in Carolina and I sure have not seen play close to that caliber.  Since then, the Bills have been stuck due to his initial contract, though they did see fit to reduce it.  We almost certainly have him for one more season so the best I can do is hope the year off did him well and that he balls out this year.  At minimum he should keep Oliver playing a lot more 3T which is a help in and of itself. 

Cool, I'll stick to my assessment. Star playing like he did prior to covid-19 is what we were missing last year. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

Did you catch that Bills-Browns game replay?  I watched Star in the first half.  He saw one double team in that half - where he got blown into the secondary and the RB ran through his gap.  Beyond that I saw one blocker handle him pretty easily.  He didn’t occupy two blockers, anchor well, keep the LBs clean or make any impact that I saw.  He was a lot better chasing plays laterally than I thought he’d be, but I didn’t see him make much of an impact with that either.

 

I know that’s just one half of one game, but when I’ve watched him in others I’ve seen the same.  If someone wants to point me to a game where he made a big, positive impact I’ll cue it up on GamePass. 

 

 

Yeah,  the idea that Star was constantly drawing double teams and tying up blockers was incorrect.   @thebandit27 would often point this out when he was still posting here as well.   It's a fact,  it's not something that should require backup but there are a lot of folks on this board that felt like Star was very good at forcing doubles......when in fact a good guard had little issue taking him out of the play with no assistance necessary.    $10M per is a lot to pay for a player like that.

 

At the time of that Browns game they were in the midst of a rather bad stretch of playing run defense.   I remember seeing Wyatt Teller single block pancake Star on one play inside the redzone in particular.    The notion that he was a force at the LOS is a misty water-colored memory.   But we do tend to see this with injured players........Harrison Phillips was deified when the Bills run defense struggled in 2019 after his injury.   Then Star got the nod in 2020 and now Phillips is living in the shade.   

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I got time this morning.

Not just powerful and athletic....cardio too.

You said they aren't in good cardio shape and that in order to remain "fat", have a relatively sedentary lifestyle.  Which is simply untrue.  

Again, you can't compare the general population to professional athletes.  Why is this so hard to understand? Seriously.

 

It is absolute common sense that exercise helps reduce the cardiovascular disease and you ignore that every time.  Professional offensive NFL lineman have a very strong workout regimen.  When you workout more, you heart gets stronger.  A sedentary person is at a much higher risk than a non-sedentary person.  I can't believe this has to be explained to you yet again. 

 

"Sedentary behavior and physical inactivity are among the leading modifiable risk factors worldwide for cardiovascular disease and all-cause mortality. The promotion of physical activity and exercise training (ET) leading to improved levels of cardiorespiratory fitness is needed in all age groups, race, and ethnicities and both sexes to prevent many chronic diseases, especially cardiovascular disease. In this state-of-the-art review, we discuss the negative impact of sedentary behavior and physical inactivity, as well as the beneficial effects of physical activity /ET and cardiorespiratory fitness for the prevention of chronic noncommunicable diseases, including cardiovascular disease."

 

Here's you saying they aren't in good cardio shape lol!  Too exhausted to walk lmfao!

 

 

None of this counters the point that I was making that you jumped into the thread to argue against.

 

That clinically obese people are generally considered to be at a higher risk to have underlying medical conditions than those that are not.

 

The fact that it's typically the 300# plus guys that are dropping from heatstroke when doing team workouts illustrates the obvious...........they are likely to be in the least quality cardiovascular shape of any players on the team.

 

Doesn't mean they can't ride a bike or dunk a basketball............just that they are at higher risk.    

 

And as it pertains to Star Lotulelei.............the point is that MANY obese players could have claimed they had underlying health conditions.    Most did not.   For most, taking the $350K was to take a big paycut and/or risk losing their career.    For Star,  his other money was guaranteed.    Jon Feliciano pointed this out right after Star opted out.    The skepticism from Feliciano about the reasoning for some opting out was pretty obvious by that otherwise unnecessary tweet.   There is no factual basis that we are aware of to presume that Star was at a greater health risk than A LOT of other 300# NFL lineman.    

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

None of this counters the point that I was making that you jumped into the thread to argue against.

 

That clinically obese people are generally considered to be at a higher risk to have underlying medical conditions than those that are not.

 

The fact that it's typically the 300# plus guys that are dropping from heatstroke when doing team workouts illustrates the obvious...........they are likely to be in the least quality cardiovascular shape of any players on the team.

 

Doesn't mean they can't ride a bike or dunk a basketball............just that they are at higher risk.    

 

And as it pertains to Star Lotulelei.............the point is that MANY obese players could have claimed they had underlying health conditions.    Most did not.   For most, taking the $350K was to take a big paycut and/or risk losing their career.    For Star,  his other money was guaranteed.    Jon Feliciano pointed this out right after Star opted out.    The skepticism from Feliciano about the reasoning for some opting out was pretty obvious by that otherwise unnecessary tweet.   There is no factual basis that we are aware of to presume that Star was at a greater health risk than A LOT of other 300# NFL lineman.    

 

Yes it does lol.

Heat stroke is a whole different subject.  Runners who are nowhere near obese die of heat stroke all the time.  High school kids die of heat stroke in all of the sports at all sizes.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/07/140728162332.htm

 

Yes obese people are considered higher risk.  No one has argued against that.  The only point that has been made to you over and over again that you can't compare the general obese person to a professional athlete because the athlete doesn't have the same sedentary lifestyle.  As stated by the AHA, which you keep pointing out, and general common sense, exercise reduces your risk of heart disease.  Is a 60 year old 300# guy who sits on his recliner all day at a higher risk than a professional football player?  The answer is obvious and that's the point we have tried to make and you can't grasp.  The 1/3 stat you keep bringing up isn't separated by subset, it's just a general whole.

 

I also specifically stated that lineman aren't as in good cardio shape as a skilled player.  But you were arguing that lineman aren't in good cardio shape and that they can't do much cardio, need to be sedentary to keep on the weight.  You said it was false these guys workout year round.  You actually argued this.  You even lied and said Matt Birk stated he couldn't walk with his family because it was too exhausting lol.

 

Bottom line is you don't know the current medical conditions of Star or any other 300# offensive lineman.  You have no factual basis at all but criticize others for it.  

Just because an NFL player is 300# doesn't mean they have current underlying medical conditions.  It's that simple.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

None of this counters the point that I was making that you jumped into the thread to argue against.

 

That clinically obese people are generally considered to be at a higher risk to have underlying medical conditions than those that are not.

 

The fact that it's typically the 300# plus guys that are dropping from heatstroke when doing team workouts illustrates the obvious...........they are likely to be in the least quality cardiovascular shape of any players on the team.

 

Doesn't mean they can't ride a bike or dunk a basketball............just that they are at higher risk.    

 

And as it pertains to Star Lotulelei.............the point is that MANY obese players could have claimed they had underlying health conditions.    Most did not.   For most, taking the $350K was to take a big paycut and/or risk losing their career.    For Star,  his other money was guaranteed.    Jon Feliciano pointed this out right after Star opted out.    The skepticism from Feliciano about the reasoning for some opting out was pretty obvious by that otherwise unnecessary tweet.   There is no factual basis that we are aware of to presume that Star was at a greater health risk than A LOT of other 300# NFL lineman.    

Actually it does counter several points you started out making.  No one I see here is arguing that obesity isn’t a cardiovascular risk.  We’re pointing out, in various words, that the degree of relative risk depends upon set of factors that correlate to to obesity in the general population (age, sedentary lifestyle, poor diet, untreated hypertension etc).  
 

First you said these factors applied to NFL linemen because they had to be sedentary to maintain weight.  

 

When people pointed out NFL OL are strong and athletic, you said well they don’t do cardio.  When it was pointed out yes they do cardio with multiple examples, now you’re back to trying to apply risk factors evaluated over an entire population to a non-random subset, which is inappropriate use of statistics.  
 

Complete with gifs and videos of fat dudes labeled with names of Bills players.  
 

You’ve become a caricature here, give it up.  We all know you don’t like Star and that obesity is a CV risk factor (though you might ask the authors of that letter what the relative risk of obesity is once corrected for age (the biggie), sex, hypertension, and physical inactivity, hmmmm?)

 

Ciao
 

 

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah,  the idea that Star was constantly drawing double teams and tying up blockers was incorrect.   @thebandit27 would often point this out when he was still posting here as well.   It's a fact,  it's not something that should require backup but there are a lot of folks on this board that felt like Star was very good at forcing doubles......when in fact a good guard had little issue taking him out of the play with no assistance necessary.    $10M per is a lot to pay for a player like that.

 

At the time of that Browns game they were in the midst of a rather bad stretch of playing run defense.   I remember seeing Wyatt Teller single block pancake Star on one play inside the redzone in particular.    The notion that he was a force at the LOS is a misty water-colored memory.   But we do tend to see this with injured players........Harrison Phillips was deified when the Bills run defense struggled in 2019 after his injury.   Then Star got the nod in 2020 and now Phillips is living in the shade.   

I mean you can click on literally the first defensive snap of the 2019 season in this link and it shows Lotulelei taking a double lol @00:43, he get doubled on more than 50% of his snaps

 

 

[eball]

I'll just drop this in here...

 

https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1399800987951509504

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, eball said:

I'll just drop this in here...

 

https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1399800987951509504

Well he's definitely not fat. 

 

 

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, eball said:

I'll just drop this in here...

 

https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1399800987951509504

 

This is good to see. I'd rather he just be at OTAs but looks like he's attending a private football camp to get back into shape. I'm not concerned about him showing up to training camp out of shape.

Edited June 1, 2021 by HappyDays

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, eball said:

I'll just drop this in here...

 

https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1399800987951509504

 

 

LOL now people will say that he looks too thin

 

Edit: here's the original tweet which has some commentary on the purpose of the drill:

 

 

 

 

[Logic]

What Greg said. The way offseason narratives get started and then blown up (and the hair-on-fire overreaction) in Bills fan land always cracks me up. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

 

[RichRiderBills]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

LOL now people will say that he looks too thin

 

 

 

 

There were several folks who did believe he would lose weight. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

There were several folks who did believe he would lose weight. 

You know what though, he was never fat in Buffalo. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

There were several folks who did believe he would lose weight. 

 

If I were Star, the minute I opted out I woulda changed my diet.

 

Even Harrison Phillips, after he tore his ACL he talked about how he changed (cut back) on what he was eating to lose a little weight.

[DJB]

I guess all the Star haters that expected this.... 

 

 

....will have to go back passing their time hating Edmunds

Edited June 1, 2021 by DJB

[YoloinOhio]

 

[RichRiderBills]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Actually it does counter several points you started out making.  No one I see here is arguing that obesity isn’t a cardiovascular risk.  We’re pointing out, in various words, that the degree of relative risk depends upon set of factors that correlate to to obesity in the general population (age, sedentary lifestyle, poor diet, untreated hypertension etc).  
 

First you said these factors applied to NFL linemen because they had to be sedentary to maintain weight.  

 

When people pointed out NFL OL are strong and athletic, you said well they don’t do cardio.  When it was pointed out yes they do cardio with multiple examples, now you’re back to trying to apply risk factors evaluated over an entire population to a non-random subset, which is inappropriate use of statistics.  
 

Complete with gifs and videos of fat dudes labeled with names of Bills players.  
 

You’ve become a caricature here, give it up.  We all know you don’t like Star and that obesity is a CV risk factor (though you might ask the authors of that letter what the relative risk of obesity is once corrected for age (the biggie), sex, hypertension, and physical inactivity, hmmmm?)

 

Ciao
 

 

 

I think you're all spinning your wheels on this one. NFL DTs are high risk for CV. Lots of studies support this, including via the CDC and that's really the bottom line. 

 

I like Star and hope he shows. Not sure what the deal is. I think it was a mistake to not support the team, but if he is working hard and comes ready will forgive. 

 

[Stanley Lombardi]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Well he's definitely not fat. 

 

 

 

Cut his skinny ass.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, RichRiderBills said:

I think you're all spinning your wheels on this one. NFL DTs are high risk for CV. Lots of studies support this, including via the CDC and that's really the bottom line.

 

NFL DTs are at high risk for CV events per the CDC?  Linky please?  Or at least the lots of studies.

 

Not general population, mind you.  NFL DTs.  Or at least obese but physically active men under 35 with controlled blood pressure and blood sugar.

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Stanley Lombardi said:

 

Cut his skinny ass.

 

[RichRiderBills]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

NFL DTs are at high risk for CV events per the CDC?  Linky please?  Or at least the lots of studies.

 

Not general population, mind you.  NFL DTs.  Or at least obese but physically active men under 35 with controlled blood pressure and blood sugar.

I attached the pdf from CDC. If you google Cardiovasular disease amoung NFL linemen like 50 supporting articles pop up.

 

Let's also add that Star himself has displayed CV symptoms before, and though he was later cleared its not impossible he does have other underlying issues. 

 

Making assuptions about Star's BP and blood sugar seems a bit silly. I've no clue if they are normal.

 

Appendix_E_NFL_Notification_FINAL-508 (1).pdf

Edited June 1, 2021 by RichRiderBills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I attached the pdf from CDC. If you google Cardiovasular disease amoung NFL linemen like 50 supporting articles pop up.

 

Let's also add that Star himself has displayed CV symptoms before, and though he was later cleared its not impossible he does have other underlying issues. 

 

Making assuptions about Star's BP and blood sugar seems a bit silly. I've no clue if they are normal.

 

Appendix_E_NFL_Notification_FINAL-508 (1).pdf 179.54 kB · 2 downloads

 

Thanks, that's actually freakin' fascinating.  Thank you for linking that.

Imma pull out a table.

 

 

The key point (to me) is that OLmen (who are nice and big and fat - I think in general bigger and fatter than DE overall) had a lower risk, while DLmen had a higher risk, and especially due to cardiomyopathy.  Dunno about you, but if "big fat" OLmen have lower risk while "big fat" DLmen have higher risk, I think it might be safe to say the risk factor isn't being a "big fat" guy per se, but something else.

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I attached the pdf from CDC. If you google Cardiovasular disease amoung NFL linemen like 50 supporting articles pop up.

 

Let's also add that Star himself has displayed CV symptoms before, and though he was later cleared its not impossible he does have other underlying issues. 

 

Making assuptions about Star's BP and blood sugar seems a bit silly. I've no clue if they are normal.

 

Appendix_E_NFL_Notification_FINAL-508 (1).pdf 179.54 kB · 4 downloads

 

This is a report from 31 years ago and based on retired players (3,439 total) from 1959 to 1988.  

This isn't discussing current players who remain very active.  

 

Obviously older and retired players who keep on the same weight will absolutely be at higher risk.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[aristocrat]

motivated star with a fresh body looks like a huge win for our d line. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Actually it does counter several points you started out making.  No one I see here is arguing that obesity isn’t a cardiovascular risk.  We’re pointing out, in various words, that the degree of relative risk depends upon set of factors that correlate to to obesity in the general population (age, sedentary lifestyle, poor diet, untreated hypertension etc).  
 

First you said these factors applied to NFL linemen because they had to be sedentary to maintain weight.  

 

When people pointed out NFL OL are strong and athletic, you said well they don’t do cardio.  When it was pointed out yes they do cardio with multiple examples, now you’re back to trying to apply risk factors evaluated over an entire population to a non-random subset, which is inappropriate use of statistics.  
 

Complete with gifs and videos of fat dudes labeled with names of Bills players.  
 

You’ve become a caricature here, give it up.  We all know you don’t like Star and that obesity is a CV risk factor (though you might ask the authors of that letter what the relative risk of obesity is once corrected for age (the biggie), sex, hypertension, and physical inactivity, hmmmm?)

 

Ciao
 

 

 

LOL!

 

"Common sense tells me that 320-330# men aren't able to train hard regularly and hold that weight or and not struggle with lower back, hip/knee/foot issues that could keep them off the field." - BADOL

 

 

[HappyDays]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:02 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

The way McDermott spoke about Diggs suggested he has been in contact and they know where he is at and when he will turn up. The way he spoke about Star indicated that they had no idea when or whether he plans to show up.

 

I think you're reading too much into his answer. It was clear that McDermott was disappointed with every player that didn't show up at OTAs. He didn't single out Star, someone just asked him a specific question about Star and that's how he responded. My sense was if that he had been asked that question about Hughes or Addison or anyone else he would have given the same answer.

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The narrative that Star consistently ties up 2 blockers is ridiculous. It’s simply not true. 

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

I think you're reading too much into his answer. It was clear that McDermott was disappointed with every player that didn't show up at OTAs. He didn't single out Star, someone just asked him a specific question about Star and that's how he responded. My sense was if that he had been asked that question about Hughes or Addison or anyone else he would have given the same answer.

 

I am not sure and maybe I missed it, but I thought that they asked about Diggs missing OTAs and McD came across as fine and understanding - like they talked before hand and he knew Diggs was doing his thing. 
 

Then he was asked about Star missing OTAs and it was a totally different response the second time.  He sounded more upset/disappointed in his lack of attendance.

 

I did not get the sense he was equally upset at Diggs and Star for missing OTAs.  I also am not sure if the frustration centered around him getting multiple questions about guys that were not there or if it was more Star specific frustration.  
 

I also don’t know about how he would of responded to others like Hughes or Addision missing the OTAs because that was not asked, but those guys were all in last year and he maybe talked with them. 
 

I think @GunnerBill may be reading a bit much, but I also think he is correct in the response between Diggs missing OTAs and Star missing OTAs was definitely different.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean you can click on literally the first defensive snap of the 2019 season in this link and it shows Lotulelei taking a double lol @00:43, he get doubled on more than 50% of his snaps

 

 

 

 

Thank you,  because the presumption here is that he is always or near-always double teamed......which was not the case.

 

The 1 tech alignment lends itself to double team blocking by attacking the gap between the guard and center........while the 3 tech alignment is designed to create a one-on-one matchup by putting the DT on the outside shoulder of the guard.......a position where it is difficult for the center to reach and where it's presumed the tackle is otherwise occupied.

 

What good is a traffic cone DT who can't get in the backfield if he isn't absorbing two blockers on nearly every snap?        

    

[Doc]

Still wish he had attended OTAs but good to see Star is working out. 

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think you're reading too much into his answer. It was clear that McDermott was disappointed with every player that didn't show up at OTAs. He didn't single out Star, someone just asked him a specific question about Star and that's how he responded. My sense was if that he had been asked that question about Hughes or Addison or anyone else he would have given the same answer.

 

But he didn't on Diggs. It was the contrast that struck me.

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But he didn't on Diggs. It was the contrast that struck me.

 

Diggs is a star player. I don't expect McDermott to have the same standards for him. The rest of the no-shows he expressed equal disappointment on. I'm sure McDermott isn't happy Star didn't show up, but clearly he's still keeping himself in shape and it doesn't mean his future with the team is in question.

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Thank you,  because the presumption here is that he is always or near-always double teamed......which was not the case.

 

The 1 tech alignment lends itself to double team blocking by attacking the gap between the guard and center........while the 3 tech alignment is designed to create a one-on-one matchup by putting the DT on the outside shoulder of the guard.......a position where it is difficult for the center to reach and where it's presumed the tackle is otherwise occupied.

 

What good is a traffic cone DT who can't get in the backfield if he isn't absorbing two blockers on nearly every snap?        

    

Yes, Lotulelei is a 1tech and the rest of our DTs have been in the 3techs primarily. He lines up tilted a bunch to occupy the C/G double. He can anchor whereas Jordan Phillips when he was here or Harrison Phillips currently get moved pretty easily. Lotulelei isn't asked to get upfield much because that's not really his role- they like him to take the double without losing ground and keep LBs clean. When he gets a 1v1 he can and does win.

 

He doesn't look like your average fireplug which is why I think people misunderstand his role a lot but he has great upper and lower body strength and his length allows him to get inside blocks. He's a good player in an underappreciated role.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

All winter Tompsett was talking about Star possibly not playing and the need to draft his man-crush Tyler Shelvin to fill the 1 tech spot.........so I guess call it an attempt self deprecation.

 

The part about being afraid to tell the Bills he's retiring?    If someone said that.....well that narrative never made any sense.

 

All he has to do is show up and not violate the terms of his contract and collect about $10M over the next year and a half........whether he is effective enough to even make the the roster or not.   

[MiltonWaddams]

54 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The narrative that Star consistently ties up 2 blockers is ridiculous. It’s simply not true. 

Are you saying that he ties up 3 blockers?!! 🥰

[eball]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I’m basically saying the discussion and exaggeration about an average at best player as something more continues to baffle my mind. 

 

Pot, meet kettle.

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I’m basically saying the discussion and exaggeration about an average at best player as something more continues to baffle my mind. 

He has been a big part of the 2nd, 10th, 6th, 21st, 7th, 2nd, and 3rd best defenses throughout his career respectively. Pretty big coincidence for an average at best player.