The defense is missing an emotional leader

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, LB48 said:

He pissed off the officials several years ago about being held and now he can't get a call even with  obvious holding.

 

Not even several years ago: at least as of last season, he was still at it sometimes.  He's just a fireball on the field.  I suppose he can't help it.

 

3 hours ago, LB48 said:

Agreed.  Edmunds is NOT a leader and he's calling the Defensive plays for a lot of veterans. 

 

I don't have that impression (that Edmunds is not a leader)

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

From things McDermott has said, the Captain vote, and his demeanor, Dr. Poyer appears to be stepping up into that leadership role.

 

But whoever it is, they need to light the fires.

 

I think the team may also need to be "playing itself into condition" a bit.  I'm sure they're professionals and have been meticulous in their off-season conditioning as well as during training camp, but that's just not the same intensity and duration as game time.  The Rams were doing a lot of no-huddle or hurry-up offense.  I could be way off base but I've always thought playing defense must be more tiring than offense.  The offense is setting the pace.  The defense has to react to it.

i think the Rams’ comeback was a combination of members of the defense being gassed and not 100% healthy as well. I think that is much more probable than fans watching on TV cooking up theories claiming that losing Lorenzo Alexander has somehow made members of this defense lose their competitiveness - sorry I don’t think these guys have such a fragile sense of professional pride, especially when coached by McDermott and his crew.

[Warcodered]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Not even several years ago: at least as of last season, he was still at it sometimes.  He's just a fireball on the field.  I suppose he can't help it.

I mean he was technically a part of a ref getting fired, I mean the guy called him something can't remember exactly maybe a B word, but I don't think the rest care.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I can see that the defense isn't playing as well this year so far as last year.  But I don't see players missing assignments as much as I see players getting beat.  That's a talent problem more than a leadership problem.  

 

Maybe.  It can be a collision between a talent problem and a scheme problem - are the best defensive calls being made to put the players we have in the best position to succeed?

 

I think that's a fair question, when the D is playing shutdown in the first half and the start of the 3Q, then things go to *****.  But as @JoPoy88 points out, that same observation can also be explained by the D getting gassed by the pace and the TOP and by injuries wearing down.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

i think the Rams’ comeback was a combination of members of the defense being gassed and not 100% healthy as well. I think that is much more probable than fans watching on TV cooking up theories claiming that losing Lorenzo Alexander has somehow made members of this defense lose their competitiveness - sorry I don’t think these guys have such a fragile sense of professional pride, especially when coached by McDermott and his crew.

 

Agreed.  I loved me some Lorax.  I double loved me some Kyle.  But I don't believe there's such a big leadership void. 

 

There are many ways of being a leader of men.  It doesn't all have to be firey speeches and brimstone.

 

I would feel better somewhat if it's gassed/not 100% (though I worry Edmunds has something going down with his shoulder that will linger all season, like the stench of a dead woodchuck under the porch).  I haven't watched the all-22 yet.  My heart can't stand it.  If the same defensive schemes were being run against the same plays in the second half as were effective in the first half, but not executed as well, that's fixable. 

 

My worry is that the opponent adjusts and finds weaknesses and we're too slow to adjust back sometimes.

 

 

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe.  It can be a collision between a talent problem and a scheme problem - are the best defensive calls being made to put the players we have in the best position to succeed?

 

I think that's a fair question, when the D is playing shutdown in the first half and the start of the 3Q, then things go to *****.

I watched Chris Simms break down the game and the way he described what McVay was doing seemed specifically designed to ***** up our gap sound defense. He also noted that we didn't actually stop them very well in the 1st half either which is why they didn't punt.

[Chandler#81]

3 hours ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

I think Kiko is looking for work.

🤣

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yeah Edmunds may pan out as a good LB but there's no way he develops as an emotional /  vocal leader. That's not gonna happen. We don't have one now and hopefully that changes down the road. 

Can he even buy the guys a beer yet??

2 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Jerry Hughes says hi...

 

nah..

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

From things McDermott has said, the Captain vote, and his demeanor, Dr. Poyer appears to be stepping up into that leadership role.

 

But whoever it is, according to Coach Frazier the team may need to light the fires and hold each other's feet to them with the accountability.  Yeah, the offense put them in a tough spot with the phony INT and the horsecollar turnover, but the offense also put them in the sweet spot of a 28 point lead that got squandered.  That ain't good.  (According to me, I wonder if Coach Frazier might need an accountability mirror.  I don't know what's said privately of course, but his pressers come across to me as "everybody's fault but mine")

 

I think the team may be "playing itself into condition" a bit.  I'm sure they're professionals and have been meticulous in their off-season conditioning as well as during training camp, but that's just not the same intensity and duration as game time.  The Rams were doing a lot of no-huddle or hurry-up offense.  I could be way off base but I've always thought playing defense must be more tiring than offense.  The offense is setting the pace.  The defense has to react to it.

I think this is what the OP is alluding to.

 

Stand strong, OP. That “It” personality (LoAl/Kyle) IS missing. Many hoped/thought it might be Horrible Harry, but the serious injury and slow start have dampened enthusiasm for him.

 

🤔 maybe they could -idk, put FANS IN THE STANDS?? just a thought..

[Sherlock Holmes]

Get Kuechly in here ASAP!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

(Edmunds) Can he even buy the guys a beer yet??

 

Yes.  He could last season.  He's 22.

 

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Stand strong, OP. That “It” personality (LoAl/Kyle) IS missing. Many hoped/thought it might be Horrible Harry, but the serious injury and slow start have dampened enthusiasm for him.

 

What does this mean?  I mean, fan enthusiasm doesn't have a lot to do with team leadership on the field.

 

I don't belong to the school that says the firey "It" personality is the only way to lead. 

 

4 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

maybe they could -idk, put FANS IN THE STANDS?? just a thought..

 

tieing threads together....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

I watched Chris Simms break down the game and the way he described what McVay was doing seemed specifically designed to ***** up our gap sound defense. He also noted that we didn't actually stop them very well in the 1st half either which is why they didn't punt.

 

I mean, the Rams pretty much have a juggernaut offense.  It probably isn't reasonable to expect us to strangle them.  And McD has always run a defense designed to keep plays in front of them, not give up the big play, bend don't break. 

 

I guess Simms can point that out, but we did hold like a 50% edge in TOP (12 min to 18 min), and ya gotta think the D has something to do with that.  Getting forced back to a 53 yd field goal which they missed by two successive sacks, sounds like a stop to me.  Same with an INT and a turnover on downs (to start the 2nd half).  The Rams basically got in one decent drive the first half, which was held to a FG.

But that's exactly my point of concern, that McVay managed to scheme something that worked and we couldn't adjust to it.  Full disclosure, I have NOT watched the all-22 yet.

[Chandler#81]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes.  He could last season.  He's 22.

 

 

What does this mean?  I mean, fan enthusiasm doesn't have a lot to do with team leadership on the field.

 

I don't belong to the school that says the firey "It" personality is the only way to lead. 

 

 

tieing threads together....

It means exactly what it says, whether you subscribe or not. From Process inception. McD’s Defense has had ‘that guy’ Coach loves and has say a few words to team before/after big games. Kyle & Lorenzo specifically-and the proof had been in the pudding. This season, not so much and the overall Defensive play? Not so much..

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I mean, the Rams pretty much have a juggernaut offense.  It probably isn't reasonable to expect us to strangle them.  And McD has always run a defense designed to keep plays in front of them, not give up the big play, bend don't break. 

 

I guess Simms can point that out, but we did hold like a 50% edge in TOP (12 min to 18 min), and ya gotta think the D has something to do with that.  Getting forced back to a 53 yd field goal by two successive sacks sounds like a stop to me.  Same with an INT and a turnover on downs (to start the 2nd half).  The Rams basically got in one decent drive the first half, which was held to a FG.

But that's exactly my point of concern, that McVay managed to scheme something that worked and we couldn't adjust to it.  Full disclosure, I have NOT watched the all-22 yet.

They also missed a FG but yeah I don't really completely agree with his opinion of the 1st half but I would say the Rams were moving the football on us fairly well. I just liked what he said about McVay using motions to send unexpected blockers creating new gaps.

[JerseyBills]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Don't think so. Edmunds is the leader. He's not the fire and brimstone leader that fans love, but he's a young and emerging leader, as is Tre.

 

No way to know from the outside but that is what the team is saying, and there's no reason to doubt them. We also don't know how the new guys are fitting in, guys like Addison, Norman and Butler.

 

Milano and Edmunds are the two guys on this defense - outside Tre - who are most needed at 100%, though Oliver is headed in that direction. And they aren't at 100%, nor is Oliver. And as people said above, they were terrific till one of the better offensive schemers in the league got well into the third quarter. Way way too early to worry yet, and no reason to suppose leadership is the problem even if there indeed is a problem.

I'm excited to get Norman back next week. Even if he doesn't have much playing time, he's a respected Vet that seems All In this year and will add some fire to the Defense. 

 

They played awful in 1 half (LA) , played bad in 1 half (Mia) and played very good in 8 quarters. 

Gotta be more consistent.  

Confident McDermott will right the ship.

Alot of defenses seem to be struggling. 

[GreggTX]

I don't know that this is a real problem. I think maybe playcalling is suspect and the DL just isn't getting it done these last 2 games.

[Big Blitz]

Hughes

Tre

Tre

Hyde

Poyer

Addison 

Milano

 

Leadership should not be an issue.  At all.

 

I was so mad about the D yesterday I didn't want to comment on them....24 hour rule.  

 

What I'm going to hope is the issue is the D line takes as much time as the O line to gel.  And we lost 2 key pieces and essentially have 3 or 4 new ones.  So we're figuring it out.  

 

It's a concern.  But the Rams O line is legit (their whole O is) and I'm chalking Miami up to the heat. 

 

If we get manhandled by Vegas we got a problem.  

 

On a scale of 0 (not at all) to 5 (sign Snacks and trade for anyone) I'm about at a 2.5 right now.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

It means exactly what it says, whether you subscribe or not. From Process inception. McD’s Defense has had ‘that guy’ Coach loves and has say a few words to team before/after big games. Kyle & Lorenzo specifically-and the proof had been in the pudding. This season, not so much and the overall Defensive play? Not so much..

 

The words I'm asking about are "have dampened enthusiasm for him"

 

What does that mean?  Whose enthusiasm for him? 

 

36 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

They also missed a FG but yeah I don't really completely agree with his opinion of the 1st half but I would say the Rams were moving the football on us fairly well. I just liked what he said about McVay using motions to send unexpected blockers creating new gaps.

 

That's what I meant - after they were forced back 10 yds to 53 yd FG they missed it.  I'll edit.

 

Interesting point about the unexpected blockers.  I'll have to pay specific attention to that when I watch the all-22.  Thanks.

 

At the end of the game, the point about the Rams moving the football is unarguable.  I was a bit shocked to see that the Rams finished the game with 103 more yards than we had.  478 yds.  Yikes and Yowza.   But to your point (or Simms point), they had 147 of those yards in the first half vs 250 yds for us.  It's not smothered, but it's kept to a low simmer.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

31 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

It's a concern.  But the Rams O line is legit (their whole O is) and I'm chalking Miami up to the heat.

 

Keep in mind in Miami we were also playing without two key players, two starting LB.

 

3 players, not 2 - we lost Phillips and Lawson to FA but we also lost Lotulelei to Covid opt-out

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

first half they did a good job on gap responsibility thought they started playing a bit too aggressive in the third and stopped play 1/11th at some key spots.  Gap integrity got the best of them and it was shocking to see so many plays with players out of position

 

It's still early in the season plenty of time for the Defense to amend itself.

 

 

[Chandler#81]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The words I'm asking about are "have dampened enthusiasm for him"

 

What does that mean?  Whose enthusiasm for him? 

 

That's what I meant - after they were forced back 10 yds to 53 yd FG they missed.  I'll edit.

 

Interesting point about the unexpected blockers.  I'll have to pay specific attention to that when I watch the all-22.  Thanks.

 

What are you, a frustrated English Major? Horrible Harry. The goofy, high spirited rookie DT who attached himself to the outgoing heart & soul of Buffalo sports in KW’ swan song season. Bringing bouquets of flowers to his door, calling or texting him through the night, being his heir apparent to the DT room. Quickly became a local hero with numerous charitable contributions and the biggest team connection to Viva Los Bills during Poncho’s untimely decline. 

-before I go any further, are you getting what this means so far? I’d really prefer to move on to other topics. Plenty of snark to disperse here tonight.

 

Any way, HE was figuring into taking the Defensive rah-rah mantle over from Kyle and Mo. He may still, but he’s been invisible so far this undefeated season with the defense certainly not up to standard. Harry’s performance to date is not encouraging. This fan, like the OP, feels there’s something intangible missing besides Star’s Opt Out that’s contributing to a lesser effort from our perennial high Defensive perch.

 

If this is still inefficient to answer your question, I give up.🤷‍♂️

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

What are you, a frustrated English Major? Horrible Harry. The goofy, high spirited rookie DT who attached himself to the outgoing heart & soul of Buffalo sports in KW’ swan song season. Bringing bouquets of flowers to his door, calling or texting him through the night, being his heir apparent to the DT room. Quickly became a local hero with numerous charitable contributions and the biggest team connection to Viva Los Bills during Poncho’s untimely decline. 

-before I go any further, are you getting what this means so far? I’d really prefer to move on to other topics. Plenty of snark to disperse here tonight.

 

So by "dampened enthusiasm for him" you mean in the Bills PR department which sets up the texts hearts and flowers cute PR films, and with fans who made him a local hero?

 

Because none of that says a thing about the internal team leadership dynamics or in the locker room, or about the coaches enthusiasm for Horrible Harry.

[Chandler#81]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So by "dampened enthusiasm for him" you mean in the Bills PR department which sets up the texts hearts and flowers cute PR films, and with fans who made him a local hero?

 

Because none of that says a thing about the internal team leadership dynamics or in the locker room, or about the coaches enthusiasm for Horrible Harry.

You don’t know this anymore than I do. But EVERYBODY -from ‘deep within’ to 2 Moderators living thousands of miles away and every Bills fan the world over -including the original poster DOES know that ‘something’ is missing. We think it’s internal motivation and what has been made public in years past has been fiery leadership from Defensive players. Assuredly, that’s missing. Whether that’s the only thing is subject to discussion.

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

How can we know that?  Even with Covid-empty stadiums, we can't hear what players are saying to each other on the field, on the sidelines, in the locker room.  

 

My sense of player leadership always comes from what the players themselves are saying because they actually know what's going on.  And I just haven't heard enough about the leadership dynamic this year from the players to confidently form an opinion.  

 

I can see that the defense isn't playing as well this year so far as last year.  But I don't see players missing assignments as much as I see players getting beat.  That's a talent problem more than a leadership problem.  

the talent from last year is gone?

[Rigotz]

8 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Win now or you may not get another chance

This is the mentality that didn’t work for 20 years. Build a young core and let it grow.

 

At this point, you should just recognize you were wrong and move forward. 

[hemma]

I blame Edmunds for not waving his arms & getting the crowd into a frenzy.

[ILBillsfan]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Keep in mind in Miami we were also playing without two key players, two starting LB.

 

3 players, not 2 - we lost Phillips and Lawson to FA but we also lost Lotulelei to Covid opt-out

Interesting note there on Lotuleiei the resident whooping boy of the BBMB, an early season missed player as teams are running fairly consistently up the middle on the Bills

[Warcodered]

 

[BillsPride12]

I'm not so sure the issue is a lack of having an emotional leader.  I think a lot of these guys play the game with a passion and as McDermott would say "Do the right things" but as I watch this Defense it is becoming more apparent to me that we have a defense filled with a bunch of good players but what we are lacking is a Bonafide playmaker wrecking Havoc along the lines of a Luke Keuchly, JJ or TJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Von Miller in his prime and so on and so on.  I was desperately hoping Ed Oliver could be that guy but he certainly hasn't arrived to that level yet.  Whether he is being affected by injury or not Edmunds hasn't even been close to that guy yet(not saying he sucks but just saying he hasn't proven to be our Playmaker yet).  McDermott has really built the ultimate bend but don't break defense but the problem is we are starting to bend too much this season.  I really think a stud edge rusher would bring so much to this defense and make the entire unit so much more dangerous but I have no idea where that piece is acquired at the moment as we won't be drafting very high anymore going forward.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

1 hour ago, BillsPride12 said:

I'm not so sure the issue is a lack of having an emotional leader.  I think a lot of these guys play the game with a passion and as McDermott would say "Do the right things" but as I watch this Defense it is becoming more apparent to me that we have a defense filled with a bunch of good players but what we are lacking is a Bonafide playmaker wrecking Havoc along the lines of a Luke Keuchly, JJ or TJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Von Miller in his prime and so on and so on.  I was desperately hoping Ed Oliver could be that guy but he certainly hasn't arrived to that level yet.  Whether he is being affected by injury or not Edmunds hasn't even been close to that guy yet(not saying he sucks but just saying he hasn't proven to be our Playmaker yet).  McDermott has really built the ultimate bend but don't break defense but the problem is we are starting to bend too much this season.  I really think a stud edge rusher would bring so much to this defense and make the entire unit so much more dangerous but I have no idea where that piece is acquired at the moment as we won't be drafting very high anymore going forward.

It really seems like our high picks, which we hoped would be stars, are just role players for the most part. I think this is really costing the Bills. Oliver, Edmunds, Epenesa (yes, it's early, but)...

[BillsPride12]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

It really seems like our high picks, which we hoped would be stars, are just role players for the most part. I think this is really costing the Bills. Oliver, Edmunds, Epenesa (yes, it's early, but)...

I'm not sure role players would be accurate either because I think these guys are legitimate starters and good players but for a team trying to build itself into a contender we need to hit on an elite weapon or two on the defense that can take over a game.  It's kind of funny how we seem to have more playmakers on the Offensive side of the ball all of a sudden.  

[Nextmanup]

21 hours ago, Sharky7337 said:

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is i do not think we will see the same defensive strength we saw last year out of this team.

 

 

Defenses vary from year to year all the time in the NFL.

 

We may well prove to be worse than last year; too early to say.

 

 

[Penfield45]

24th ranked defense is terrible 

 

if that continues I can’t see us winning the division. 
 

teams will figure out how to limit our offense and that’s when troubles will come. Mcd needs to fix this defense ASAP 

[BananaB]

Good defences are getting lit up throughout the NFL, it’s not just Buffalo. I’d give it a few more weeks to see if they turn it around before I start worrying.  

[AmishRifle]

Some general thoughts on this thread:

 

Agree that we seem to be missing something intangible this year...perhaps an emotional leader.  Edmunds doesn’t strike me as a rah rah type...more of a lead by example type.

 

I read a previous thread that posted snap counts that we pretty much stayed nickel the entire game.  This coupled with the way McVey stretches the field sideline to sideline with his scheme could explain why our defense was gassed the second half.

 

Lastly, after rewatching the game, there were several runs in the second half that were attributed to gap integrity and plain poor tackling.  Several runs saw our safeties miss tackles or be out of position on gap responsibilities.  While Edmunds does get caught in the wash sometimes, I think he shouldn’t be singled out as the root cause of our poor rush defense in the 2nd half.  

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I feel like they are missing a personality like Jordan phillips or shaq especially with no crowd to help them get amped up

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

I'm not so sure the issue is a lack of having an emotional leader.  I think a lot of these guys play the game with a passion and as McDermott would say "Do the right things" but as I watch this Defense it is becoming more apparent to me that we have a defense filled with a bunch of good players but what we are lacking is a Bonafide playmaker wrecking Havoc along the lines of a Luke Keuchly, JJ or TJ Watt, Aaron Donald, Von Miller in his prime and so on and so on.  I was desperately hoping Ed Oliver could be that guy but he certainly hasn't arrived to that level yet.  Whether he is being affected by injury or not Edmunds hasn't even been close to that guy yet(not saying he sucks but just saying he hasn't proven to be our Playmaker yet).  McDermott has really built the ultimate bend but don't break defense but the problem is we are starting to bend too much this season.  I really think a stud edge rusher would bring so much to this defense and make the entire unit so much more dangerous but I have no idea where that piece is acquired at the moment as we won't be drafting very high anymore going forward.

 

 

Not entirely buying that thesis.

 

Yeah the players you mention are terrific. Playmakers? Yeah. Wreaking havoc? Yeah.

 

But if you compare Tremaine Edmunds  with Luke Kuechly, their tackle numbers are much the same, forced fumbles, INTs, sacks ... all pretty similar. No, we don't have any major stars. Yes, we do have some terrific players who go far beyond good. That Carolina defense Kuechle was on was much like this D, a scheme-based group that played together very well and didn't have many weak spots.

 

It'd be great if we could come up with a superstar. And if we become an excellent team this year, likely some of our guys will become very famous and generally accepted as difference makers, including particularly Oliver, Edmunds, Tre (who already is pretty accepted as an absolute premiere corner and could probably be used to attack your argument) and Milano being the best candidates. Hopefully they bring in new guys in trades and drafts and FA down the road, but this appears to be a very good personnel group on defense right now, though they haven't played great the last two games.

 

IMO, losing Star really did have a real effect on the run defense. It's not a mistake that McDermott always brings in a guy like Star for his D; it appears to be something he feels is necessary for his scheme. Hopefully with more film, McDermott can do some planning and improve things from their current level. My guess is that he will do so.

 

 

23 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

i think the Rams’ comeback was a combination of members of the defense being gassed and not 100% healthy as well. I think that is much more probable than fans watching on TV cooking up theories claiming that losing Lorenzo Alexander has somehow made members of this defense lose their competitiveness - sorry I don’t think these guys have such a fragile sense of professional pride, especially when coached by McDermott and his crew.

 

Yes, agreed, and nicely put.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Thurman#1

[MJS]

I never thought he was overly emotional.

[Lfod]

I would be more interested in an opinion on the defense from somebody who is going to break down the film and give a detailed explanation of what they think went wrong instead of talking about how the defense felt about it.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Lfod

[billsbackto81]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:09 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

If y’all don’t think Poyer and Tre are emotional leaders on this defense, I think you need to re-examine your opinion.  

Poyer has been absolutely playing with fire since his extension. Dawkins has played well also . Love seeing guys earn it.

[BritBill]

8 hours ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

I feel like they are missing a personality like Jordan phillips or shaq especially with no crowd to help them get amped up

 

I concur. While he might not be an all pro anymore Josh Norman will certainly bring the swagger and mouth Phillips and Lawson did. 

 

I think the defence will be better if/when Norman returns.

[Sharky7337]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:51 PM, JoPoy88 said:

Luckily for the team, you have absolutely no idea about the internal locker room dynamic or on-field leadership responsibilities so what you are engaging in is pure, baseless speculation and completely useless.

This aged well.