Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

[Punching Bag]

Makes sense since most in NYS state are screwed by Albany.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:05 PM, Lurker said:

 

 

These are secondary market ticket prices, but they give you an idea of the supply/demand situation:

 

https://blog-admin.tickpick.com/how-much-are-nfl-tickets/

Average Ticket Cost
NFL Team	2017	2018	2019
New England Patriots	$348	$355	$501
Chicago Bears	$186	$246	$376
Green Bay Packers	$226	$243	$243
New Orleans Saints	$160	$216	$301
Denver Broncos	$264	$196	$278
Seattle Seahawks	$223	$236	$248
Philadelphia Eagles	$199	$208	$256
Pittsburgh Steelers	$201	$195	$221
Los Angeles Chargers	$191	$157	$191
Washington Redskins	$109	$131	$167
Dallas Cowboys	$225	$141	$258
Cleveland Browns	$62	$80	$190
Oakland Raiders	$179	$145	$149
Kansas City Chiefs	$90	$102	$209
Miami Dolphins	$139	$104	$143
Detroit Lions	$117	$108	$122
Houston Texans	$123	$126	$145
Minnesota Vikings	$156	$172	$187
San Francisco 49ers	$98	$126	$178
Baltimore Ravens	$105	$100	$129
Tennessee Titans	$127	$185	$148
Atlanta Falcons	$210	$136	$170
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	$153	$151	$150
New York Jets	$75	$88	$117
Cincinnati Bengals	$70	$86	$114
Carolina Panthers	$156	$169	$131
Arizona Cardinals	$107	$82	$93
New York Giants	$155	$137	$152
Los Angeles Rams	$108	$119	$114
Jacksonville Jaguars	$61	$113	$98
Indianapolis Colts	$59	$107	$114
Buffalo Bills	$86	$63	$105

Want more revenue? Be good at football and make fans want to come see you play. New stadium or old. Then raise prices. The trends here are quite clear. 

[apuszczalowski]

12 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Want more revenue? Be good at football and make fans want to come see you play. New stadium or old. Then raise prices. The trends here are quite clear. 

 

Then how do you explain the difference between the Chargers and Rams?

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

 

It's not just the upfront cost but the potential revenue going forward. Sure, you could build a new stripped-down stadium, or renovate, at half the cost. But what if it costs you twice the revenue in the long run because of the events you can't host?

 

Sadly, I don't think the number of events Buffalo could draw to justify a new downtown stadium would be worth the investment.   

 

For example, you're not going to have larger auto or boat shows (not with Toronto's right up the road) or comicon-type events.   The population problem once again would rear its ugly head.    Concerts?   Nah, not enough stadium-type bands around and you don't want to cannibalize the Key Bank Center. 

 

We're just not a convention destination (especially in the winter), even with a shiny new stadium venue...   

[Cripple Creek]

10 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

....interesting....New Era has right of first refusal on naming rights for new stadium...........

What new stadium!

 

@CountryCletus

 

#freereed

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well doesn't that take time crossing the boarder?

 

It varies in an unpredictable way, is the problem.  If you don't raise any flags, have your paperwork ready, and cross at a not busy time, can be 5-10 minutes.

If you cross at a busier time, can take half an hour

 

If you, someone in your group, or your car fit a profile of someone they're focusing on or someone in your group raises a flag, can take much longer.

 

No way of controlling if they're on the lookout for a beige Ford Taurus that morning.

6 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Just a thought... 

 

Build a very large geodesic dome around the existing stadium about 1000 - 2000 feet outside the stadium walls and leave it open year round. Fill it with hotel rooms, night clubs, a theatre for films and/or performing arts, rides like bumper cars and a merry go round, an arcade, pool hall, sports museum including busts and highlight vids and memorabilia for all the former Bills on the Wall, gardens, press conference rooms and great restaurants with wings and beef on weck. All of which would be paid for by the merchants and would bring in year round revenues. You wouldn't really need to heat it up to 70 degrees in the Winter and could cool it in the Summer with fans and a retractable roof. I honestly don't know how feasible all of that is, but it would be a great place to hang out and have fun while protected from the rain, wind and snow. You could also put large montors  and speakers around the inner wall of the dome for games and concerts. Solar panels could cover the outer wall of the dome and add a couple wind turbines to defray the cost of all that electricity. Make it nice, though. Don't get cheap. You could charge a nominal entry fee except for ticket holders. Maybe even season's passes.

 

I like the way you think.  Inside the dome, but outside the box.

 

That would probably be the world's largest geodesic dome, so bonus tourist attraction.

[Just Joshin']

10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Sadly, I don't think the number of events Buffalo could draw to justify a new downtown stadium would be worth the investment.   

 

For example, you're not going to have larger auto or boat shows (not with Toronto's right up the road) or comicon-type events.   The population problem once again would rear its ugly head.    Concerts?   Nah, not enough stadium-type bands around and you don't want to cannibalize the Key Bank Center. 

 

We're just not a convention destination (especially in the winter), even with a shiny new stadium venue...   

Non sports events are always cited to justify a stadium but rarely materialize.  Adding MLS teams, college football, etc help spread the costs.  Conventions and concert will not pay the bills.

[dave mcbride]

On 2/8/2020 at 3:30 PM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

 

...thanks bud....great help......median household income in Buffalo is $37K vs $52k for Tampa (if chart is accurate)....metro Tampa population is 3.068 million vs 1.134 million for Buffalo...so metro Tamps is three times bigger and 40% higher median income......thus a Bucs game being more expensive than a Bills game makes sense ("what the market will bear")....and Tampa has a far more substantial corporate presence...if both teams broke ground tomorrow on identical new stadiums, Tampa has the far better position of financial sustainability with assumed PSL's, increased tickets prices as well as all of the game amenities vs Buffalo.....Pegula has some real homework to do IMO.....

Somewhere between 17 and 21 percent of attendees at Bills games are from Southern Ontario, so the cited metro area number for Buffalo is off by a good bit. The Niagara region of Southern Ontario has 448,000 people, and I am not talking about Toronto. That is Bills country. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by dave mcbride

[Gordio]

On 2/8/2020 at 1:25 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s what I’m thinking. I really trust Wawrow when it comes to this stuff and that seems to be what he believes. It’s the more likely scenario for a lot of reasons. I wouldn’t say that it’s a definite at this point.

 

 

Just got back last week from visiting my friend who moved to LA two years ago.  He told me some of the seats in the new LA Stadium for the Rams at least have PSL tag of $16 grand per year for the next five years.  I don't care how much disposable income you have; you have got to be out of your mind to pay that.  

 

He did tell me that when the Super Bowl is in LA within the next five years your guaranteed two tickets & that there is an open bar & free buffet after every home game for these ticket holders.  That must be one hell of a buffet!

[Gordio]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:07 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

Man, I’ve laid out my thoughts on here a zillion times on the topic. I really don’t feel like going through it again but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Long story short, I’m guessing about 1/2 state, 1/2 private (between team and fans). That will come in the form of concession deals, PSLs, naming rights, the Pegulas themselves. 
 

The bottom line is you can’t function like a minor league team in the NFL. You’re either going to have to get with the program or get left behind. The Bills are never going to be a top 5 revenue club but they don’t need to be the least valuable team in the NFL either.

 

 

hey someone has to be the least valuable team.  Keep the stadium & who cares.  Pegulas got deep pockets, what do they care how much revenue create.  I am sure they create enough revenue to cover costs(the tv contract alone probably covers that).  It is an honest quest.  Why should the Pegulas care?  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

Then how do you explain the difference between the Chargers and Rams?

Chargers are playing in a much smaller stadium and therefore ticket prices are higher. 
 

Rams did better in overall ‘resale’ revenue by about $20M. 

the price elasticity is clear. Winning generates demand better than fancy new vender booths and state of the art urinals.  

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Gordio]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:33 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked in pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

 

 

You make it sound like they are the only two owners in the league.  There are 32 owners in this league & most of them are not in the same situation/have the same interests as the Krafts/Jones of the world.  

[Gordio]

On 2/8/2020 at 6:26 PM, machine gun kelly said:

Those projects have so much space, right near where the Buffalo News building sits.  Good points on the spacing. Hotels, restaurants, pubs and so on.  I would bet it would only be 65,000 seats like most stadiums these days.  There is less wind downtown, and less snow.  When I worked my college job at the News, I remember driving and right after the skyway, I can’t tell you how many times, I would over the Father Baker, and it would be a wall of snow.  The Pegulas could build a bunch of these hotels and restaurants, etc. as another revenue stream.

 

 

There is less snow than the southtowns for sure but it is always windier downtown.  That is not even debatable.  

[billsfan89]

In the biggest metro area of the country by population (NYC) there is a football stadium that houses 2 teams. That stadium gets used about 40 times a year (now that the XFL is operating a few dates.) 20 NFL Games (16 regular season and 4 pre-season, maybe 1-2 post season games), 5 XFL games and maybe 15 other events between concerts, big time international soccer matches and other special events like an occasional Wrestlemania or Monster Jam. 

 

That's at best the largest market with 2 teams maybe filling up 45 dates a year in a good year. How many times do you think a stadium in Buffalo would be used? 10 Bills games plus maybe what 5-10 concerts and other events? Why do you need a fancy billion dollar stadium that will sit empty 345 days a year? 

 

I get that they might need to do a renovation of the stadium for economics and probably every massive building could use one. But I think that it is much better for the city of Buffalo and the Bills to do a 400-500 million dollar renovation of the current stadium rather than build a new one. You could finance it thought 50% private funding from the Pegula's and the NFL's stadium fund. Then the rest could be a bond issued by the tax payers that gets paid back from parking and other revenues that the stadium generates over its first 10 years. 

 

Effectively the city doesn't pay anything as while they front half the money they get it paid back over the course of the first 10 years of the stadiums operation with a degree of interest. Stadiums produce a lot of money between the parking, naming rights, concessions, concessions licenses and other ancillary revenues the Bills could easily pay back the city 250 million over a 10 year period even with interest on the bond. 

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

 

hey someone has to be the least valuable team.  Keep the stadium & who cares.  Pegulas got deep pockets, what do they care how much revenue create.  I am sure they create enough revenue to cover costs(the tv contract alone probably covers that).  It is an honest quest.  Why should the Pegulas care?  

 

 

Think of it like this...........you form a partnership.........everyone initially kicks in about the same..........but as the company grows you and some others kick in more $ and work harder to help it continue to grow and create more shared revenue...........but one dipsh*t just does nothing and still gets the same proportion of those increasing earnings.

 

That would piss off anyone.

 

That's what the issue is for The Pegs............keeping the other 97% of the partnership happy with them.

 

Ralph at least had the argument that he was a founder and had done something to get the league where they are at.........The Pegs bought into this and knew what the expectations were.

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by BADOLBILZ

[Kirby Jackson]

23 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

 

hey someone has to be the least valuable team.  Keep the stadium & who cares.  Pegulas got deep pockets, what do they care how much revenue create.  I am sure they create enough revenue to cover costs(the tv contract alone probably covers that).  It is an honest quest.  Why should the Pegulas care?  

Because they own a business!! I’ve never, in my life, seen a business owner that doesn’t care about how much money they make. I’ve never seen someone say, “I have enough money.” That’s just not the real world. He wants his asset, the Bills, to keep going up in value. He can use public funds to help make that a reality. Of course he is going to do that!!

[apuszczalowski]

2 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

In the biggest metro area of the country by population (NYC) there is a football stadium that houses 2 teams. That stadium gets used about 40 times a year (now that the XFL is operating a few dates.) 20 NFL Games (16 regular season and 4 pre-season, maybe 1-2 post season games), 5 XFL games and maybe 15 other events between concerts, big time international soccer matches and other special events like an occasional Wrestlemania or Monster Jam. 

 

That's at best the largest market with 2 teams maybe filling up 45 dates a year in a good year. How many times do you think a stadium in Buffalo would be used? 10 Bills games plus maybe what 5-10 concerts and other events? Why do you need a fancy billion dollar stadium that will sit empty 345 days a year? 

 

I get that they might need to do a renovation of the stadium for economics and probably every massive building could use one. But I think that it is much better for the city of Buffalo and the Bills to do a 400-500 million dollar renovation of the current stadium rather than build a new one. You could finance it thought 50% private funding from the Pegula's and the NFL's stadium fund. Then the rest could be a bond issued by the tax payers that gets paid back from parking and other revenues that the stadium generates over its first 10 years. 

 

Effectively the city doesn't pay anything as while they front half the money they get it paid back over the course of the first 10 years of the stadiums operation with a degree of interest. Stadiums produce a lot of money between the parking, naming rights, concessions, concessions licenses and other ancillary revenues the Bills could easily pay back the city 250 million over a 10 year period even with interest on the bond. 

No one said it had to be a Billion dollar palace similar to Dallas, or the new ones in LA or Vegas. They could build a new one similar to Indy's while lowering the seating to the 60k seat range with some more luxury boxes and continue to develop around that downtown area with some more bars and hotels. It's going to cost more then $500 mil but can be done under a billion, it just won't be as fancy as those big 3 places. 

 

I recently read an article that focused more about the new baseball stadiums, but they were saying how now it's all about development around the stadium. They want you to come for the game, but stay in the area afterwards. They don't want places where you go to the game and leave right after, they are being built closer to down towns where they can develop bars, restaurants and hotels so you make a day out of it going to the games and then staying around afterwards. The Pegulas have started this with Harbour Centre by the arena where it has hotels and a bar/restaurant. 

 

The Pegulas know they have to do something, and most likely were told as part of the league agreeing to their ownership bid that they had to do something about the stadium soon. So I wouldn't expect them to just turn around and say no to the league, they are happy with what they have. It's just a matter of whether is feasible to get to a level the league will be happy with through renovations to the existing like KC, GB, and Chicago did (GB and CHI did it mostly because Lambeau and Soldier field were a bit more iconic as playing fields), or if it makes more sense to build new. One of the 2 are going to happen.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Because they own a business!! I’ve never, in my life, seen a business owner that doesn’t care about how much money they make. I’ve never seen someone say, “I have enough money.” That’s just not the real world. He wants his asset, the Bills, to keep going up in value. He can use public funds to help make that a reality. Of course he is going to do that!!

Some, like Gates or Buffett may give alot of it away, but they doesn't mean they will do things for free and not make money. They all want to maximise their assetts, bit some may be willing to share more of it with others. The Pegulas may be nice people looking to help, but they aren't a charity and aren't going to not want to maximise the return on their investment by not caring about revenue.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

38 minutes ago, Gordio said:

 

 

You make it sound like they are the only two owners in the league.  There are 32 owners in this league & most of them are not in the same situation/have the same interests as the Krafts/Jones of the world.  

That is true but it almost became a reality until Ralph spoke up last time. There were only 2 votes against the proposal, Ralph and Mike Brown. You will almost certainly see it moving in that direction. We don’t know how extreme it will be at this point. Jones will push for one extreme. Pegula will push for the other extreme. It will end up somewhere in between.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[apuszczalowski]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Think of it like this...........you form a partnership.........everyone initially kicks in about the same..........but as the company grows you and some others kick in more $ and work harder to help it continue to grow and create more shared revenue...........but one dipsh*t just does nothing and still gets the same proportion of those increasing earnings.

 

That would piss off anyone.

 

That's what the issue is for The Pegs............keeping the other 97% of the partnership happy with them.

 

Ralph at least had the argument that he was a founder and had done something to get the league where they are at.........The Pegs bought into this and knew what the expectations were.

 

 

 

I just think of it as someone buying a business franchise like say a McDonalds. The Corporation (the NFL) has certain standards they expect from all of the franchisees that they must meet. You can't let your store fall apart and not meet the standards they have just because the area it's in can't afford price increases that may happen. Your forced to upgrade or they take your franchise rights away.

[apuszczalowski]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That is true but it almost became a reality until Ralph spoke up last time. There were only 2 votes against the proposal, Ralph and Mike Brown. You will almost certainly see it moving in that direction. We don’t know how extreme it will be at this point. Jones will push for one extreme. Pegula will push for the other extreme. It will end up somewhere in between.

I think most of the owners are closer to the Jones/Kraft's where they want to make money and would like to reach the same level of building a better facility then Dallas or now LA and Vegas, but they know they can't in their markets. Brown is known to be very cheap and not wanting to shell out money. Ralph I think was more willing to stand up against it because he knew at his age he wasnt going to be around much longer so he could stand up for it. I don't think the Pegulas are the type that are going to stand up against the others and fight, they know what they were getting into when they bought the team and more then likely had it part of their purchase agreement of the team that they had certain obligations to meet to bring things more in balance with the rest of the league.

[njbuff]

Will a stadium in Buffalo take away from the tailgating?

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, apuszczalowski said:

I think most of the owners are closer to the Jones/Kraft's where they want to make money and would like to reach the same level of building a better facility then Dallas or now LA and Vegas, but they know they can't in their markets. Brown is known to be very cheap and not wanting to shell out money. Ralph I think was more willing to stand up against it because he knew at his age he wasnt going to be around much longer so he could stand up for it. I don't think the Pegulas are the type that are going to stand up against the others and fight, they know what they were getting into when they bought the team and more then likely had it part of their purchase agreement of the team that they had certain obligations to meet to bring things more in balance with the rest of the league.

I think that you’re spot on with these thoughts. It is an inevitability at this point. It’s just a matter of what exactly it looks like. 

Just now, njbuff said:

Will a stadium in Buffalo take away from the tailgating?

Most likely

 

It will take on a different form and evolve. There will probably be some tailgating as we know it. Additionally there will be a lot more bars, restaurants, etc... My guess (strictly a guess) is that it will kind of work like Cleveland in that sense. They still have tailgating in the muni lot but they also have a variety of other options.

[njbuff]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that you’re spot on with these thoughts. It is an inevitability at this point. It’s just a matter of what exactly it looks like. 

Most likely

 

It will take on a different form and evolve. There will probably be some tailgating as we know it. Additionally there will be a lot more bars, restaurants, etc... My guess (strictly a guess) is that it will kind of work like Cleveland in that sense. They still have tailgating in the muni lot but they also have a variety of other options.

 

So, there will be like a mini-city around the stadium then?

[May Day 10]

IMO, the red tape and necessary $ cost for infrastructure improvements/traffic will prevent a downtown stadium.  

 

I always thought the best $ spent for this would be a new stadium across the street from New Era Field.  Goodell's recent comments though give me alarm that the major renovation may be the conclusion of the studies and analysis.  

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, njbuff said:

 

So, there will be like a mini-city around the stadium then?

Depending on where they put it. I’m sure that you will see development around it. 

[corta765]

On 2/8/2020 at 12:33 PM, T master said:

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!

 

This type of stuff is tiresome and pathetic. Newsflash despite the Bills having their best record in two decades the Ravens game had tickets available for $30 a seat. The biggest game against the best team in the NFL was for $30. Certain Bills fans love to brag about "the elements' "being tough" etc.. well truth is the support for those games isn't there. What was another big game in 2017 at home against the Dolphins in December wasn't even a sellout despite having a decent shot at the playoffs. Snowbowl which I was at in 2017 wasn't close to a sellout in another game with playoff implications. This isn't a generational thing, older folks, families, many fans in general would prefer a stadium where they can go without risk of getting sick or having their fan experience be one of freezing the whole game. The world has evolved many people don't view entertainment as being in those conditions for hours on end. If they did it should be impossible to get tickets to the Ravens or Colts or Phins. There is a reason why the early season games are far more expensive regularly.

 

It is an entertainment business first and foremost and the NFL for years has been looking for the Bills to expand their revenue streams. If that comes at the expense of not being out doors and not being able to jump drunkenly through tables on fire during a tailgate while allowing a wider audience to come more regularly it won't even be a question of what direction they pick.

 

The Bills are an Alamo of sorts in terms of the sport and that isn't a good thing if you care about their long term viability in the league.

[blacklabel]

Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. 

 

Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. 

 

I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status?

[Reed83HOF]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It varies in an unpredictable way, is the problem.  If you don't raise any flags, have your paperwork ready, and cross at a not busy time, can be 5-10 minutes.

If you cross at a busier time, can take half an hour

 

If you, someone in your group, or your car fit a profile of someone they're focusing on or someone in your group raises a flag, can take much longer.

 

No way of controlling if they're on the lookout for a beige Ford Taurus that morning.

 

I like the way you think.  Inside the dome, but outside the box.

 

That would probably be the world's largest geodesic dome, so bonus tourist attraction.

[LabattBlue]

5 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums?

Ummmm...probably because they poured hundreds of millions into stadium renovations over the last decade.

[Kirby Jackson]

12 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. 

 

Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. 

 

I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status?

Not sure if you are trolling or not but every single one of those places underwent MASSIVE renovations. Renovations that cost about as much as a new stadium.

[corta765]

14 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. 

 

Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. 

 

I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status?

GB renovated theirs for 540 mil

CHI built a new stadium on top of Solider 

NOLA is doing renovation for over a billion

KC also did massive Reno for like 500 mil

[DrDawkinstein]

To sum up this thread

 

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, apuszczalowski said:

No one said it had to be a Billion dollar palace similar to Dallas, or the new ones in LA or Vegas. They could build a new one similar to Indy's while lowering the seating to the 60k seat range with some more luxury boxes and continue to develop around that downtown area with some more bars and hotels. It's going to cost more then $500 mil but can be done under a billion, it just won't be as fancy as those big 3 places. 

 

I recently read an article that focused more about the new baseball stadiums, but they were saying how now it's all about development around the stadium. They want you to come for the game, but stay in the area afterwards. They don't want places where you go to the game and leave right after, they are being built closer to down towns where they can develop bars, restaurants and hotels so you make a day out of it going to the games and then staying around afterwards. The Pegulas have started this with Harbour Centre by the arena where it has hotels and a bar/restaurant. 

 

The Pegulas know they have to do something, and most likely were told as part of the league agreeing to their ownership bid that they had to do something about the stadium soon. So I wouldn't expect them to just turn around and say no to the league, they are happy with what they have. It's just a matter of whether is feasible to get to a level the league will be happy with through renovations to the existing like KC, GB, and Chicago did (GB and CHI did it mostly because Lambeau and Soldier field were a bit more iconic as playing fields), or if it makes more sense to build new. One of the 2 are going to happen.

 

 

 

Some, like Gates or Buffett may give alot of it away, but they doesn't mean they will do things for free and not make money. They all want to maximise their assetts, bit some may be willing to share more of it with others. The Pegulas may be nice people looking to help, but they aren't a charity and aren't going to not want to maximise the return on their investment by not caring about revenue.

 

 

 

I think even a basic stadium is going to cost if not a billion very close to a billion. The Colts built their stadium in the late 2000's for 792 million dollars. That is a cost of 963 million in 2020 dollars adjusted for inflation. Also the Colts were aided by building before construction costs generally skyrocketed (I think there were various factors that made arenas and stadiums cost a lot more to build in the 2010's as opposed to the 2000's.) 

 

I think even a stadium that costs 950 million to build is still way too much money for a market like Buffalo to spend on a stadium that will sit empty 345 days a year. A 400-500 million dollar stadium renovation for New Era field is just a much better use of money and is much easier to finance. 

46 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

Why don't teams like Chicago, Green Bay, New Orleans, and Kansas City get hassled for new stadiums? All of those places are just as old or older than New Era, yet you never really hear about those teams being pressed to build a new place. I get that they consider Chicago and Green Bay "historic landmark" stadiums or whatever, but even so, Soldier Field has been open since 1924 and Lambeau Field since 1957. 

 

Seems like every other team, though, has opened a new stadium within the last 20-25 years, some within the last 10 or so. 

 

I really don't mind New Era. And they've put a lot of money into the renovations and the new training facilities that just opened. Now they're just supposed to abandon that and set up shop somewhere else? Guess it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Do Chicago, GB, etc. have some sort of exempt status?

 

As another poster pointed out all those teams you mentioned did build new stadiums or massive renovations. I agree with you that if The Ralph is structurally sound I don't see why you would need to do anything and waste money building a new stadium or renovating the current one. Football stadiums sit empty 345 days a year. All I want for a stadium (esp in a market like Buffalo) is that it is a good place to see a game.

 

But the NFL is a business and new stadium and renovated stadiums create more revenue and revenue opportunities. The NFL will always pressure teams to build new stadiums or renovate as their stadiums age. I think the best way to keep the economics happy and not waste nearly as much money is to just do a massive 400-500 million dollar renovation to the Ralph. Make it as modern a stadium as possible and finance it in a way that doesn't cost the tax payers anything other than maybe loans/bonds that get paid back. 

[blacklabel]

Thanks for everyone answering my question, appreciate it. 

 

I guess I'd wonder as to why Buffalo couldn't do major renovations like those other teams did, but I'm sure that would take quite a while and I can't think of any alternate places they could play in the meantime. I mean, UB, but the capacity there tops out at a little over 25k. 

 

I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? I dunno much about this stadium bidness. 

[corta765]

18 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

As another poster pointed out all those teams you mentioned did build new stadiums or massive renovations. I agree with you that if The Ralph is structurally sound I don't see why you would need to do anything and waste money building a new stadium or renovating the current one. Football stadiums sit empty 345 days a year. All I want for a stadium (esp in a market like Buffalo) is that it is a good place to see a game.

 

But the NFL is a business and new stadium and renovated stadiums create more revenue and revenue opportunities. The NFL will always pressure teams to build new stadiums or renovate as their stadiums age. I think the best way to keep the economics happy and not waste nearly as much money is to just do a massive 400-500 million dollar renovation to the Ralph. Make it as modern a stadium as possible and finance it in a way that doesn't cost the tax payers anything other than maybe loans/bonds that get paid back. 

 

Thank you for posting this to show the two of these things are not mutually exclusive. From a pure watching standpoint the Ralph is like you fine no issues. But your in the largest entertainment league in the world where they do anything to make money ... and Buffalo has people jumping through tables lol. That isn't a shot just a point that compared to literally the rest of the league were still in 1995 by revenue standards. The Pegulas are really hard to read because for as much as they talk renovation and a Buffalo fit, I have this gut feeling they would LOVE to be downtown with the rest of their investment. The Byron Brown has already said he wants the team back downtown. Truthfully its a really hard egg to figure out if they do go downtown because you need to somehow keep the cost within reason, have the ability for a good amount of safe tailgating, while also having more family options pre game, with ok access in and out, and a facility that is able to be used more regularly....YIKES lol

Just now, blacklabel said:

Thanks for everyone answering my question, appreciate it. 

 

I guess I'd wonder as to why Buffalo couldn't do major renovations like those other teams did, but I'm sure that would take quite a while and I can't think of any alternate places they could play in the meantime. I mean, UB, but the capacity there tops out at a little over 25k. 

 

I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? I dunno much about this stadium bidness. 

 

Many NFL teams practice in one spot but play elsewhere. Carolina are building like a 100 million practice facility that is actually just in South Carolina no where near the stadium. If a stadium was downtown I don't doubt they keep everything else in Orchard Park. My solution to the old stadium is to make it a high end ampitheater/park mix which the area desperately needs.

 

As for reno vs. new I think the one crucial piece is how much the city of Buffalo wants to get the team downtown. The mayor could absolutely use that as another piece of showing the Buffalo revival and that's a lot of money that comes downtown pre and post game etc.. It'll be interesting

[LabattBlue]

9 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

I feel like it'd be a waste to have built all those new facilities last year and then just abandon them within less than a decade or whatever. Unless they decided that practice would still be at New Era and games at the new spot? 

You answered your own question.  If a new stadiium is built downtown, the team offices/weight room and practice facilities would all remain in their current location.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Because they own a business!! I’ve never, in my life, seen a business owner that doesn’t care about how much money they make. I’ve never seen someone say, “I have enough money.” That’s just not the real world. He wants his asset, the Bills, to keep going up in value. He can use public funds to help make that a reality. Of course he is going to do that!!

 

 

They, and every other team, are going up in value all the time. Never down.

 

The incremental increase in what, ticket sales?, food? in a new stadium that, let's say, he put a billion out of pocket towards----it's not going to be a good return on investment to tie up all that money.  He's clearing tens of millions a year as it is now, debt free.  He could cash out anytime and make a killing. 

[Whites Bay]

1 hour ago, corta765 said:

GB renovated theirs for 540 mil

CHI built a new stadium on top of Solider 

NOLA is doing renovation for over a billion

KC also did massive Reno for like 500 mil

If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play.  The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season.  Was it two?  I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere.   But I remember it taking FOREVER.

 

[LabattBlue]

14 minutes ago, Whites Bay said:

If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play.  The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season.  Was it two?  I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere.   But I remember it taking FOREVER.

 

One season at University of Illinois(2002), along with the preseason games for 2003.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Chicago_Bears_season

 

[Kirby Jackson]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

They, and every other team, are going up in value all the time. Never down.

 

The incremental increase in what, ticket sales?, food? in a new stadium that, let's say, he put a billion out of pocket towards----it's not going to be a good return on investment to tie up all that money.  He's clearing tens of millions a year as it is now, debt free.  He could cash out anytime and make a killing. 

He’s not putting out a billion out of pocket!! He’s probably not putting out half of that. NFL teams are constantly increasing in value but the Bills get a fairly sizable jump with a new stadium. Is it crazy to think that the value of the team increases $250M with a new stadium? That’s roughly, what I expect him to come out of pocket for. If the value jumps by $250M and he is generating more revenue it makes sense for him (depending on the debt he takes on). 

1 hour ago, Whites Bay said:

If it's a Bears-scale renovation, it'll be interesting to see where the Bills would play.  The Bears had to play at the University of Illinois stadium for at least one season.  Was it two?  I can't remember, and can't find it anywhere.   But I remember it taking FOREVER.

 

Toronto? I know no one wants to hear that but that’s probably the most sensical answer. That’s part of the reason though that the renovation route is unlikely.