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Another Argument for Bills to Not Build a Billion $ Palace in B/Lo

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29 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

.....oh...my apology......isn't that EXACTLY what I said?.......seems like you conveniently skipped over economy of scale and what the WNY market can bear.........skipping those tiny details, sounds you of the volition, "if we build it, they will come".....got it......

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked in pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I suppose.  But in a league generating $14 billion in revenue annually, do the Jones' and Kraft's of the world really care about getting another $500,000 or so (and $4-$5 million over 8 games) from being the road team in Buffalo?

 

It seems like all the NFL jawboning about new stadiums is just so much FUD on autopilot...

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

Edited by Kirby Jackson
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1 minute ago, machine gun kelly said:

Well, it’s already expensive enough for me to fly up from Tampa with three kids, the boys always gos to the game, and if it is a substantial increase, I probably won’t come up as much.  I’m sure I’ll want to go at least once a year, but not multiple times.  Many of us have said, they’ll probably build downtown in the first ward area, and build a bunch of different amenities down there, and model after Indy’s stadium.  I just hope the state can keep up with the infrastructure to get to and back from the stadium. We’ll find out in approximately three years or so.

 

...eliminating the travel costs, can you do a comparative analysis of taking the family to a Bucs game vs a Bills game?........their stadium was built in 1998 for $168 mil, a total public finance.....New Era was upgraded in 2012 for $130 mil......so it appears neither facility has stadium debt service...........

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13 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked once pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

 

...you hurt the feelings of the greedmeister Boy Danny Snyder by leaving him out.......on another note, he is an interesting perspective (?) someone posted in one of the numerous new stadium threads (apologize, but I'll have to paraphrase)......"a new stadium with higher ticket prices would attract the more affluent fan who currently stays at home to avoid the rowdy drunken fans that currently attend......that ilk would then be priced out"........hmmmm.......

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8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to rema`

 

I think we had this 'tastes great-less filling' discussion before.    

 

Kraft and Jones may well advoocate for that position but with half the league in mid-sized cities, I can't see them carrying the day on it.     They may get to keep more of the future revenue streams (gambling), but if I'm Clark Hunt or Art Rooney II, I'm just as leary of that proposal as the Pegula's would be.

 

My take on the NFL's "New Stadium!!!   New Stadium!!"  shtict is that you can't have a few teams getting away with older, still viable stadiums like New Era if you want to con state and local government officials in your home town into ponying up for your new palace.    It's bad optics if some teams are doing perfectly fine without a billion dollar home.    How can you cry poverty that way--and twist the appropriate arms to pick up half or more of the costs?..

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2 hours ago, T master said:

 

If this continues to go as it has been going only the true Bills fans that have followed the team since the 90's will be in the stadium because the younger generation being lazy as they are & being less than their tougher relatives that raised them will rather sit in a warm living room watching the game than go to a nice brand new Billion $ stadium just because there is to much effort involved !!


I think you are talking about me, and I’m 60. If I’m the younger generation, you must be like 80. 

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1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...you hurt the feelings of the greedmeister Boy Danny Snyder by leaving him out.......on another note, he is an interesting perspective (?) someone posted in one of the numerous new stadium threads (apologize, but I'll have to paraphrase)......"a new stadium with higher ticket prices would attract the more affluent fan who currently stays at home to avoid the rowdy drunken fans that currently attend......that ilk would then be priced out"........hmmmm.......

I think there is certainly some of that. At least they will be more segmented. There is a certain type of buyer that currently isn’t interested in attending as it stands. The Bills will be tasked with current traditions without alienating the more affluent fan. It’s a bit of both. It will be a challenge but they have smart people that can figure that out.

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1 hour ago, purple haze said:

How many more dots do you need to connect what's going to happen?


If I’m “connecting dots” then the stadium is gonna be in Batavia. Dunkirk Don told me. 

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

 

I think we had this 'tastes great-less filling' discussion before.    

 

Kraft and Jones may well advoocate for that position but with half the league in mid-sized cities, I can't see them carrying the day on it.     They may get to keep more of the future revenue streams (gambling), but if I'm Clark Hunt or Art Rooney II, I'm just as leary of that proposal as the Pegula's would be.

 

My take on the NFL's "New Stadium!!!   New Stadium!!"  shtict is that you can't have a few teams getting away with older, still viable stadiums like New Era if you want to con state and local government officials in your home town into ponying up for your new palace.    It's bad optics if some teams are doing perfectly fine without a billion dollar home.    How can you cry poverty that way--and twist the appropriate arms to pick up half or more of the costs?..

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

1 minute ago, WotAGuy said:


If I’m “connecting dots” then the stadium is gonna be in Batavia. Dunkirk Don told me. 

Speaking of which, I bought a bunch of land out there from him. I would like to sell it if anyone is interested???

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1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

 

Oh, no doubt, they'll ask.    And you're right, the horse left the barn long ago on demanding a public financing component to any new stadium.   

 

I'm just saying the NFL's crowning achievement over the last 100 years has been conning taxpayers into paying for billionaire's playthings.     It should have been part of the NFL100 celebration stuff we've been seeing all year...

 

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Just now, Lurker said:

 

Oh, no doubt, they'll ask.    And you're right, the horse left the barn long ago on demanding a public financing component to any new stadium.   

 

I'm just saying the NFL's crowning achievement over the last 100 years has been conning taxpayers into paying for billionaire's playthings.     It should have been part of the NFL100 celebration stuff we've been seeing all year...

 

Oh I agree!! How about the decades of tax-exempt status? You said it perfectly “the horse left the barn long ago.” 

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3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think there is certainly some of that. At least they will be more segmented. There is a certain type of buyer that currently isn’t interested in attending as it stands. The Bills will be tasked with current traditions without alienating the more affluent fan. It’s a bit of both. It will be a challenge but they have smart people that can figure that out.

 

 

...there are a multitude of variables.......would the more affluent fan be willing to endure snow games in the winter versus the diehards who currently attend, assuming a segment would be part of the "priced out" contingent?......a basic proforma financial model exercise would be fairly straightforward despite assumptions to include projected revenues, reasonable debt service and ROI, etc.....the tough part (for me at least; I'm in my 44th year as a CFO) would be the market feasibility study including demographics, disposable income, etc to sustain the model long term (beyond my scope)........

10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I just think there is such a precedent for it at this point. The Yankees, Mets, MSG have all benefited from public funding. I don’t know what was at the local level and what at the state level. With the Bills being the ONLY NY NFL team (the only time this is important) they will certainly ask. 

Speaking of which, I bought a bunch of land out there from him. I would like to sell it if anyone is interested???

 

....too late...I bought Don's parcel in Letchworth..............

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19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...eliminating the travel costs, can you do a comparative analysis of taking the family to a Bucs game vs a Bills game?........their stadium was built in 1998 for $168 mil, a total public finance.....New Era was upgraded in 2012 for $130 mil......so it appears neither facility has stadium debt service...........


 

Hey Old Time, I don’t know exactly, but the Bucs games are more expensive as I go to both every year.  The experience is so different, then again, there is really nothing like going to New Era.  Parking is more expensive, the lots are not nearly as much fun,  the concessions are more, but more diverse.  The food outside of the stadiums is like a bunch of different kinds of food, and more economical, so when I take the boys, we typically between throwing the ball around, get some food and eat before we go into the stadium.  Just like it’s miserably cold in the winter up there, it absolutely awful going to a September or first 1/2 of October.  You have to put on so much sun block, and you never stop sweating.  I gave it up after the last Bucs, AZ game with my middle son.  For a number of reasons he’s followed them since the Pitt, AZ SB.  Now we always pick a fun game in November or December.  I highly recommend the next time the Bills are in Tampa.  Most people will give you some ribbing wearing one of my Bills jerseys, but it’s mostly in good fun.

 

I hope that helps a little.  I think they play in Buffalo in two years so most likely not for 6 years, and yes, I always root for the Bills win and have done so since 1993.  Any other team and I root for the Bucs as I have my first love in Buffalo, by second is Tampa.

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11 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...there are a multitude of variables.......would the more affluent fan be willing to endure snow games in the winter versus the diehards who currently attend, assuming a segment would be part of the "priced out" contingent?......a basic proforma financial model exercise would be fairly straightforward despite assumptions to include projected revenues, reasonable debt service and ROI, etc.....the tough part (for me at least; I'm in my 44th year as a CFO) would be the market feasibility study including demographics, disposable income, etc to sustain the model long term (beyond my scope)........

 

....too late...I bought Don's parcel in Letchworth..............

He got you too?!? Damn it!!

 

In terms of the more affluent fan it’s a bit of a gamble. They will certainly have to cater to them at some level. It will need to be insulated (in some ways) from the weather. They will have to have amenities that appeal to the wives (which believe it or not teams suck at). I have this girl that I’m kind of seeing and she has extremely high expectations and tastes. She would never make it as it currently is (even in the clubs). There are a segment of people that aren’t coming without their wives. You’d need to bring them in.

 

They will have to expand the geography (which has been happening for a while). It will be a challenge to be able to attract the “new fan” without alienating the base. The passion is so strong IMO that the base will be there even if it’s kicking and screaming. I tend to believe they will build more with the “new fan” and gamble that the base will be there. 

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49 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I wasn’t skipping over anything. When the example of other teams are used why do we go to what they charge in Dallas or NY? That’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about places like Indy, Cleveland and New Orleans. The studies have been done and the market can bear more than it currently is. Again, if you want my entire detail (including numbers associated with it) it’s all on here somewhere. I just really don’t feel like going through it again.

 

As some background (and without sounding like a know it all) I have a Master’s Degree is Sports Management and worked in pro sports for almost a decade. I worked in a situation where the team was sold twice and potentially going to be relocated. My thoughts as to what it it takes come from real world experience. I’ve been a part of the negotiations with the state, concessionaires, NBA, NBAPA, sponsors and fans.
 

I promise you that Buffalo can sustain a lot more than it currently is. With that being said, they aren’t going to build some new stadium and start charging Dallas prices. They are going to operate near the bottom of the league in revenues but the gap between them and others will be smaller. 

You need to think in terms of the CBA. The Kraft’s and Jones’ of the world are going to argue for LESS of the current revenue being shared. They will argue each team should be responsible for a greater share of the pie. “Why should we subsidize the Bills of the world?” When that inevitably happens, it will be imperative that the Bills are generating more revenue to remain competitive. 

 

Yeah but that's always going to be, it just will be with the new bottom of the league team(s).   They also realize that subsidizing the other teams is good for them too.  The highest revenue teams aren't doing anything better - they just complain from a different position and that will always continue.  

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3 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:


 

Hey Old Time, I don’t know exactly, but the Bucs games are more expensive as I go to both every year.  The experience is so different, then again, there is really nothing like going to New Era.  Parking is more expensive, the lots are not nearly as much fun,  the concessions are more, but more diverse.  The food outside of the stadiums is like a bunch of different kinds of food, and more economical, so when I take the boys, we typically between throwing the ball around, get some food and eat before we go into the stadium.  Just like it’s miserably cold in the winter up there, it absolutely awful going to a September or first 1/2 of October.  You have to put on so much sun block, and you never stop sweating.  I gave it up after the last Bucs, AZ game with my middle son.  For a number of reasons he’s followed them since the Pitt, AZ SB.  Now we always pick a fun game in November or December.  I highly recommend the next time the Bills are in Tampa.  Most people will give you some ribbing wearing one of my Bills jerseys, but it’s mostly in good fun.

 

I hope that helps a little.  I think they play in Buffalo in two years so most likely not for 6 years, and yes, I always root for the Bills win and have done so since 1993.  Any other team and I root for the Bucs as I have my first love in Buffalo, by second is Tampa.

 

 

 

...thanks bud....great help......median household income in Buffalo is $37K vs $52k for Tampa (if chart is accurate)....metro Tampa population is 3.068 million vs 1.134 million for Buffalo...so metro Tamps is three times bigger and 40% higher median income......thus a Bucs game being more expensive than a Bills game makes sense ("what the market will bear")....and Tampa has a far more substantial corporate presence...if both teams broke ground tomorrow on identical new stadiums, Tampa has the far better position of financial sustainability with assumed PSL's, increased tickets prices as well as all of the game amenities vs Buffalo.....Pegula has some real homework to do IMO.....

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Nice take AFL.  It’s funny during the Dungy Gruden years prior to the real estate crash in 08 there was a sign on the wall saying 80,000 wait list for PSL’s, and a 10 year commitment.  Between liking to watch Bills games over Bucs, but my theater room had three TV’s so I would watch both.  The stadium is actually beautiful for when it was built, and was the model other teams copied for several years.

 

Now there are no PSL’s, the stadium maybe avg. 50,000 on any given week, but only seats 65,000 roughly.  I think you’d like it big guy.  Lots of people fly down for the game for the obvious reasons they can go to the beach for a couple of days, the young women are very attractive. To look at, and people overall are pretty fit.cmon down next time, and I’ll show you a couple of awesome steakhouses.

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29 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He got you too?!? Damn it!!

 

In terms of the more affluent fan it’s a bit of a gamble. They will certainly have to cater to them at some level. It will need to be insulated (in some ways) from the weather. They will have to have amenities that appeal to the wives (which believe it or not teams suck at). I have this girl that I’m kind of seeing and she has extremely high expectations and tastes. She would never make it as it currently is (even in the clubs). There are a segment of people that aren’t coming without their wives. You’d need to bring them in.

 

They will have to expand the geography (which has been happening for a while). It will be a challenge to be able to attract the “new fan” without alienating the base. The passion is so strong IMO that the base will be there even if it’s kicking and screaming. I tend to believe they will build more with the “new fan” and gamble that the base will be there. 


Wait... she has high standards, and... is with you? 
 

not to detour the thread but some things warrant discussion 

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Yes the NFL needs fans in the seats, but they having millions watching on TV. Making the TV experience better is far more important than the stadium experience.  

As for the stadium experience the best hope for Buffalo is a dome. Second best option is covered seats for the majority of the stadium.

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14 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

Nice take AFL.  It’s funny during the Dungy Gruden years prior to the real estate crash in 08 there was a sign on the wall saying 80,000 wait list for PSL’s, and a 10 year commitment.  Between liking to watch Bills games over Bucs, but my theater room had three TV’s so I would watch both.  The stadium is actually beautiful for when it was built, and was the model other teams copied for several years.

 

Now there are no PSL’s, the stadium maybe avg. 50,000 on any given week, but only seats 65,000 roughly.  I think you’d like it big guy.  Lots of people fly down for the game for the obvious reasons they can go to the beach for a couple of days, the young women are very attractive. To look at, and people overall are pretty fit.cmon down next time, and I’ll show you a couple of awesome steakhouses.

 

 

...we took the kids to Florida for years...we started in Orlando, doing Disney and Universal (they transformed me into a roller coaster nut)....then we'd head down to Bradenton and stay with my brother-in-law and sister-in-law....my wife passed away in 2015 and her brother in 2016, so I take the kids and my daughter-in-law to Aruba now......I absolutely hated the Sunshine Skyway Bridge.......remember going over it in 1988......was such a chicken that if we flew out of Tampa, I'd take I-75 from Bradenton to go around it.........

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13 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

 

Yes the NFL needs fans in the seats, but they having millions watching on TV. Making the TV experience better is far more important than the stadium experience.  

As for the stadium experience the best hope for Buffalo is a dome. Second best option is covered seats for the majority of the stadium.


Ethan, I kind of like the Seattle layout as long as in our stadium, they do heat the seats as you mentioned.  You kind of get the best of both outside and inside.

AFL, I’m so sorry about you’re wife, and her brother.  Sounds like a tough couple of years.  Aruba is beautiful, and the Sunshine you get used to it like tHe one in Buffalo.  If I remember correctly, it’s the Skyway right?

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3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The least valuable franchise in the league: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/09/04/the-nfls-most-valuable-teams-2019-cowboys-lead-league-at-55-billion/amp/

30th in revenue:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193553/revenue-of-national-football-league-teams-in-2010/

 

They charge significantly less than other markets. The stadium doesn’t generate the other revenue streams of others, etc..

 

I PROMISE, PROMISE, PROMISE, a new stadium or complete renovation ($500M+) will be happening. This is not something that “might” happen. 

That's from 2010. Bills were middle of the road in revenue last year.

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