Dr. Chandler#81’s concussion observations

[fergie's ire]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

 

This is the sack in the 1st Quareter:

 

 

This is after breaking the huddle:

 

 

 

Yeah, I see the head shake there, too...and it looks cobwebby....but the one I remember and the one that I think Chandler81 refers to is when he puts his hand up to his head first.  Almost looks like he is trying to pull sod out of his facemask (which is odd since they were playing on artificial turf) and then he shakes his head.

[K-9]

“Lady Gaga! Lady Gaga!”

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillies said:

 

Ha. No - that's why it's a great old term. "Get back in there kid, you just got your bell rung, that's all"

 

Old school nonsense, but it was the way coaches treated it back in the day.

 

Remember a hockey interview where one of the announcers was a former player discussing a concussion he had. Said he could not even recall his own name. His coaches told him he was Gretzky and sent him back on the ice.

 

"Did you play then like Gretzky?"

 

"No."

[Kelly the Dog]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

Seriously, what the hell is the difference? Is there a clinical term for Bell Rung?

I think it’s Bellicose Rungus. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

 

This is the sack in the 1st Quareter:

 

 

This is after breaking the huddle:

 

 

 

that is what I recalled earlier.   the "reverse" angle it doesn't look like a real hard hit.   Can't say it was a shake the cobwebs out move though 

 

[WideNine]

Did you notice that Bill sent 7 players on that rush...4 to Allen's blind side.

 

He doesn't mind sending the house when teams are deep in their own zone.

[RiotAct]

55 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Broadcasts lately have been HORRIBLE about replaying things. Maybe it's just me, but it seems that way.

 

yep.  Especially False Start / Offside / NZI penalties where it’s not abundantly clear who jumped first.

[buffaloboyinATL]

1 hour ago, vorpma said:

I'm with you, besides I always trust NT guys!

NT is like the Canada of Buffalo.  ?

[whatdrought]

48 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Josh came out after half time and his 3rd quarter play was much better.  They went more for the quick, short route stuff and Allen looked much better.  So I'm not sure I buy Allen was concussed in the 1st quarter.  If there were any indications that Josh might have suffered a concussion as a result of hitting his head on the turf in Q1, the officials would have been all over that, and Allen would not have been on the field past that point in the game.

 

It's possible it was enough to rattle him and it took the intentional time of halftime to clear the cobwebs. Really impossible to say. My guess is 9 out of 10 players on a field at any time could be diagnosed with some level of concussion like symptoms. 

[Shaw66]

Well, this is an interesting theory, but others say he didn't hit his head.  

 

Plus, before that play, he missed Gore badly in the right flat.   I think he was off from the opening kickoff.   My theory is that he was nervous, excited, wired, whatever you want to call it, and he never calmed down and played the game his coaches expect of him.   As I said, I think the moment was too big for him. 

[Chandler#81]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, this is an interesting theory, but others say he didn't hit his head.  

 

Plus, before that play, he missed Gore badly in the right flat.   I think he was off from the opening kickoff.   My theory is that he was nervous, excited, wired, whatever you want to call it, and he never calmed down and played the game his coaches expect of him.   As I said, I think the moment was too big for him. 

yet you admit your perspective is prejudiced. 

He has begun many games amped up, but he gets his act together relatively quickly. Not the case Sunday.

 

EDIT: Even the demonstrative Daboll pointing to his head may not have realized some damage had happened.

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

On the broadcast. They broke huddle and came up with Josh under Center. Before prepping for the snap, he quickly shook his head back & forth.

I'm pretty sure there was a bee in his helmet.  Just trying to ge??‍♀️t it out.  

[Kelly the Dog]

1 minute ago, Chandler#81 said:

yet you admit your perspective is prejudiced. 

He has begun many games amped up, but he gets his act together relatively quickly. Not the case Sunday.

I think you make a really good point. Impossible to say of course if he got a concussion early but he clearly got Bellicose Rungus. It’s easiest to imagine for me that it was nearly equal parts enormity of the game early, the undeniable ability of Belichick to confuse young QBs, and having been smacked in the head hard. That makes a lot of sense to me. Then he came out playing well in third quarter after settling down on all three. 

[VW82]

I still have the game tape and there's nothing in that play which would suggest he got concussed. He saw Van Noy coming, turned and braced himself for the hit. His helmet did not bounce off the turf. I just watched this play like five times in a row to make sure. Ninkovic's knee grazes the side of his helmet when he flies by after the play is over but I'd be surprised if that's what did it.

 

I'm not saying he wasn't or couldn't have been concussed on that play -- Morse had concussion-like symptoms from non-contact drills in training camp -- but there's no smoking gun there based on video evidence of the actual play. I suppose there's lots of evidence afterward depending how you want to view his performance. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by VW82

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Then you probably can’t check/show him whipping his head before taking the snap on the next drive. That’s what convinced me what I saw hurt him.

 

Morse farted.

 

 

[Chandler#81]

55 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Morse farted.

 

 

THAT’S IT! Case solved.

Thanks, Mr. Weo!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Note 1: it’s an Honorary Title. (with apologies to a certain poster)

Note 2: I don’t have the luxury of recording games, so this comes solely by watching the game Sunday.

 

I haven’t brought this up yet and been looking unsuccessfully in every thread to see if it was noticed as well, but I’m absolutely convinced Allen was concussed in the very 1st Drive. He was sacked & lost a fumble, because the front of his head was slammed into the turf falling back towards our end zone. I caught it immediately and focused hard on him getting up and whenever the camera showed him. Next drive out, on the 1st play, he came up under Center and whipped his head back & forth quickly & violently. (Clearing cobwebs -I’m convinced) I know what that ‘movement’ means and no one has ever done it that wasn’t trying to shake themselves alert. 

 If he’s honest with team Drs. & coaches about this, MAYBE he returns after the Bye -because he was absolutely knocked the ef out later in the game.

Anyway, I’m convinced this ne’er before discussed concuss is at the root of his game long issues.

 

Flame if you have the game recorded and can dispute this by further viewings.

Dr. Chandler#81

 

What did Gronk just state,he's had 100's of them, but how many are reported.

 

If there was concussion protocol back in the 90's Kelly would have been removed from the SB against the Giants with about one minute left.  In away that play may have even cost them the game as caused him to need to use a TO then which prevented them from having it left at the end which would have allowed them to run an extra play or two to get closer.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Herc11]

The hit wasnt a jarring head snap that is typical of a concussion. His face mask went face, first rubbing into the turf, which many times we see stuff getting lodged in the facemask. Looks more like he shook his head to get something out of his helmet. I even thought that during the game. It wasnt a back and forth "shaking out the cobwebs" motion to me. More of a sharp one direction to make something fall out. 

 

 

[TigerJ]

My only reaction is that not every blow to the head results in a concussion.  A few years ago I stepped off the edge of a sidewalk while walking.  There was about a 3 inch drop off that caused me to lose my balance and fall face forward.  I slammed my forehead into the concrete.  Other than a large goose egg from the blow, I had no loss of consciousness, no symptoms whatsoever.   No confusion, no drowiness, no headache.  To make others happy, I went to the hospital to make sure.  A CT scan confirmed there was no damage, no problem.  Thereafter, I had no delayed symptoms.

[Rubes]

5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Note 1: it’s an Honorary Title. (with apologies to a certain poster)

Note 2: I don’t have the luxury of recording games, so this comes solely by watching the game Sunday.

 

I haven’t brought this up yet and been looking unsuccessfully in every thread to see if it was noticed as well, but I’m absolutely convinced Allen was concussed in the very 1st Drive. He was sacked & lost a fumble, because the front of his head was slammed into the turf falling back towards our end zone. I caught it immediately and focused hard on him getting up and whenever the camera showed him. Next drive out, on the 1st play, he came up under Center and whipped his head back & forth quickly & violently. (Clearing cobwebs -I’m convinced) I know what that ‘movement’ means and no one has ever done it that wasn’t trying to shake themselves alert. 

 If he’s honest with team Drs. & coaches about this, MAYBE he returns after the Bye -because he was absolutely knocked the ef out later in the game.

Anyway, I’m convinced this ne’er before discussed concuss is at the root of his game long issues.

 

Flame if you have the game recorded and can dispute this by further viewings.

Dr. Chandler#81

 

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing that, too, and wondering if his head got hit harder than I had first thought. Then I forgot all about it.

 

[JTown]

5 hours ago, TigerJ said:

My only reaction is that not every blow to the head results in a concussion.  A few years ago I stepped off the edge of a sidewalk while walking.  There was about a 3 inch drop off that caused me to lose my balance and fall face forward.  I slammed my forehead into the concrete.  Other than a large goose egg from the blow, I had no loss of consciousness, no symptoms whatsoever.   No confusion, no drowiness, no headache.  To make others happy, I went to the hospital to make sure.  A CT scan confirmed there was no damage, no problem.  Thereafter, I had no delayed symptoms.

Can you throw or catch a  football?

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, Rubes said:

 

Now that you mention it, I remember seeing that, too, and wondering if his head got hit harder than I had first thought. Then I forgot all about it.

 

 

Ill admit to thinking, maybe twice(?), early in the game that he had done something odd- I think once a head shake/jerk as mentioned and maybe once a smack or something. 

 

Didnt really register as noteworthy enough to catalogue for future discussion but I do recall thinking he was acting goofy a couple times.

Edited October 3, 2019 by NoSaint

[Playoffs?]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, this is an interesting theory, but others say he didn't hit his head.  

 

Plus, before that play, he missed Gore badly in the right flat.   I think he was off from the opening kickoff.   My theory is that he was nervous, excited, wired, whatever you want to call it, and he never calmed down and played the game his coaches expect of him.   As I said, I think the moment was too big for him. 

 

This is what I believe. Along with Belichick’s D confusing the hell out of him. 

[Augie]

10 hours ago, whatdrought said:

As for the theory, it wouldn't surprise me, and it would actually make some level of sense as it could be a factor in the decision making, or lack there-of, that was on display throughout the first half. 

 

That would make me lean all the more to sitting until after the bye. But I’m no Dr Chandler! 

[TigerJ]

18 minutes ago, JTown said:

Can you throw or catch a  football?

Absolutely, and I run a 4.3 40, 4.3 minutes.

[Punching Bag]

9 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

It's possible it was enough to rattle him and it took the intentional time of halftime to clear the cobwebs. Really impossible to say. My guess is 9 out of 10 players on a field at any time could be diagnosed with some level of concussion like symptoms. 

 

Well then coaches too if only sending 10 not 11.

[Nihilarian]

I can tell you that I've been knocked unconscious twice in my life and don't recall any lingering after effects from either. When a player gets his bell rung he usually doesn't get right up as they tend to move slower like they are dazed... or in my case saw stars and lights out. After re-watching the Bills first few drives it didn't look like Allen was hampered at all by any hits. 

 

Over the years of watching football I've seen so many QB's amp'd up at the start of the game against a big opponent that they overthrow targets for most of the first few drives. I think Josh was simply amp'd up going against the world champs.

 

Some coaches are good at getting their QB to settle down before a big game and others not so much. If you watch Daboll on the sidelines he is a yeller. 

[billsfan_34]

Josh has a good chance of playing Sunday- right now 50/50. He was doing mild to moderate work today- if your asymptomatic for 24 hours after that then usually its a go. 

[Lazy]

You don't have to hit your head to feel the same effects as a concussion.

I've been diagnosed with Post Concussion Syndrome and can get fall down dizzy just by shaking my head to fast.

(Can't even sled down the bunny hill if there's a bump in it)

Not that this is the case here, but it's the jostling of the brain, not necessarily the hit that can cause issues.

[Augie]

The title led me to believe this would be regarding @Chandler#81‘s concussion, but apparently that is covered in another thread. I hope you are both feeling better by game day! 

 

?

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

If it wasn't a mod making this thread it would be labelled a LAMP post.

 

He shook his head so he was concussed? A guy grazed his face mask, he immediately signaled for it during the play then I believe actually threw the ball away.

 

No, I really don’t think so. This isn’t about him, and it just might make some sense, if that's what happened. It makes me want to go back and look again. So......

[Augie]

28 minutes ago, Lazy said:

You don't have to hit your head to feel the same effects as a concussion.

I've been diagnosed with Post Concussion Syndrome and can get fall down dizzy just by shaking my head to fast.

(Can't even sled down the bunny hill if there's a bump in it)

Not that this is the case here, but it's the jostling of the brain, not necessarily the hit that can cause issues.

 

NEVER trust a bunny! Did you not see Monty Python and the Holy Grail???  

[Happy]

10 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

If it wasn't a mod making this thread it would be labelled a LAMP post.

 

He shook his head so he was concussed? A guy grazed his face mask, he immediately signaled for it during the play then I believe actually threw the ball away.

 

I don't think that's true; it's a realistic theory where the OP/mod made an observation that has merit.  While I don't think Josh was concussed after hitting the turf in Q1, he could have been a bit woozy.  The hit in the 4th quarter most likely put him into concussion if Josh was in a 'grey area' from hitting the turf in Q1.  Wash Josh's shaky performance the first half the result of hitting the turf, nerves and this game being too big for him, or Belichick confusing him?  Hard to say and could be a combination of all three.

[MJS]

12 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

 

 

This is the sack in the 1st Quareter:

 

 

This is after breaking the huddle:

 

 

He took a couple legs to the head after he was already on the ground looking for the fumbled ball. The initial hit or drive to the ground does not look like it would cause a concussion. The sudden hits to the side of his head from players diving for the ball could have done it though.

[RememberTheRockpile]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

He took a couple legs to the head after he was already on the ground looking for the fumbled ball. The initial hit or drive to the ground does not look like it would cause a concussion. The sudden hits to the side of his head from players diving for the ball could have done it though.

Ran the video at 1/4 speed and I don't see any hits to the head. The only one close was by #50 whose leg pushed up against his neck and shoulder pad.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, Nick the Greek said:

Bell run is the first concussion you describe.  Josh got hit hard but was able to keep playing. 

 

The second time he was he was knocked out cold. That a straight up concussion, worse than getting your bell rung.

 

These days, both are described as a concussion.  It used to be felt someone had to lose consciousness to suffer a concussion, now a days consensus medical SOTA says "not true"

 

The first would be concussion without loss of consciousness if he was indeed having mental symptoms, the second would be concussion with loss of consciousness, both would be concussions.

[FLFan]

On 10/2/2019 at 9:09 AM, Chandler#81 said:

Seriously, what the hell is the difference? Is there a clinical term for Bell Rung?

Yes.  Concussion.