The Pick Play That Got Gordon Open

[dave mcbride]

Just now, GG said:

 

That's the one play I would like to see an All 22 review, because it looked like the left foot contacted the Bills player

I didn't think so from the angle I watched, but I could be wrong. It would be good to get another view. In any event, you simply can't reverse that non-call given the way that PI challenges have been going so far. 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I agree it was a penalty, had it been called during live action.  But its also a very difficult call to make in live action with the lack of actual contact with the trailing DB.  Which also makes it a difficult call to reverse on a review, and lets remember this is the first year even being able to challenge something like that. 

 

For me, this wasn't that big of a deal as this is a total judgement call and the lack of contact didn't help the matter.  There were other plays where I felt were bigger misses by the refs than this one.  

 

While I think by rule it was called right I agree that had the officials on the field called it then it would not have been overturned on review. 

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, Bray Wyatt said:

 

While that gives an example it also says  this before: Acts that are pass interference include, but are not limited to:

 

 

 

Typically an acknowledgement that they can’t write every possible mix of events but that they specifically call out contact leads me to believe it’s considered a pretty key element there. No? If simply obstructing/hindering even without contact was within the regularly intended scope why even include the word contact in it?

Edited September 30, 2019 by NoSaint

[dave mcbride]

Relevant to the discussion. 

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-nfl-week-4-pff-refocused-new-england-patriots-16-buffalo-bills-10

 

Levi Wallace would have enjoyed one of the best statistical performances of any corner this season if he wasn’t tripped up on an uncalled pick play. Although he didn’t make many plays on the ball and won’t show up on any post-game highlight reels, his consistently tight coverage forced Brady into a number of errant throws. He must have been targeted on close to double figures during the game and gave up only a single catch.

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

While I think by rule it was called right I agree that had the officials on the field called it then it would not have been overturned on review. 

 

Yeah I dont really have an issue with it not being called, but had it been called I would agree with the penalty simply because of the slight step out to impede the DB even though there was no contact.  

 

Like I said, I dont really have an issue with this play...and to be honest, my biggest issue on this play was that McD burned a timeout challenging it when I felt there was almost no chance to win the challenge.  I do get it as it was a key moment in the game and McD probably strongly felt it was interference, but at that point, the game is a tight game and I wouldn't have wanted to risk the timeout and such a low probability.  

[Bray Wyatt]

9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

Typically an acknowledgement that they can’t write every possible mix of events but that they specifically call out contact leads me to believe it’s considered a pretty key element there. No? If simply obstructing/hindering even without contact was within the regularly intended scope why even include the word contact in it?

They dont include the word contact, the term is significantly hinders

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah I dont really have an issue with it not being called, but had it been called I would agree with the penalty simply because of the slight step out to impede the DB even though there was no contact.  

 

Like I said, I dont really have an issue with this play...and to be honest, my biggest issue on this play was that McD burned a timeout challenging it when I felt there was almost no chance to win the challenge.  I do get it as it was a key moment in the game and McD probably strongly felt it was interference, but at that point, the game is a tight game and I wouldn't have wanted to risk the timeout and such a low probability.  

 

I was okay with the challenge. I thought in real time it was a pick. Had there been any contact I think it would have been overturned...  hard for McD to know there wasn't. 

 

I had more issue with the first challenge. You can't challenge forward progress so you are left charging the mm of a spot. You never win those. 

1 minute ago, Bray Wyatt said:

They dont include the word contact, the term is significantly hinders

 

They do. In the actual wording of the rule. 

[PetermansRedemption]

19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

That's not what happened, and it's pretty clear on the replay. 

 

My question is, can you ever call OPI if the ostensibly offending receiver doesn't actually touch the defender? It certainly looked to me like they never actually contacted each other even though the Pats player got in his way. The Bills defender appeared to trip over himself as he tried to get around the receiver. 

So, based on the replay, you believe that receivers intention was anything BUT to trip/hinder Wallace? I disagree completely. His entire point of that route is to get in Wallace’s way. Probably why his foot steps out while he’s staring right at Wallace. Unless you believe it’s just coincidence that his route had him plant his foot right where he did at the exact moment Wallace was coming by to where Wallace just so happened to have to avoid the contact. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I was okay with the challenge. I thought in real time it was a pick. Had there been any contact I think it would have been overturned...  hard for McD to know there wasn't. 

 

I had more issue with the first challenge. You can't challenge forward progress so you are left charging the mm of a spot. You never win those. 

 

Yes, I agree the first challenge was far worse.  

[ngbills]

Yep. Play sucked - hard to make the call though. Kind of looked like he tried to avoid and defensive guy stumbled. If He had crashed into him maybe they call it. Regardless, unfair play and wish the Bills had tried similar vs what seemed to be basic one on one routes trying to beat man coverage.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Fouts called a good game. Allen was terrible all game. What should he have said?  He praised the Bills D repeatedly and Allen when he made the nice drive at the start of the second half.

 

It was a classic pick but Levi made no contact.  Can;t call a flag without contact.  Interestingly that play only works against a man cover scheme as Levi is chasing Gordon from the left side of the field to the right. Most designed pick plays the receivers are on the same side of the field because of the 1 yard rule.  But that route ans sticking his leg out makes it look premeditated and schemed for that look.  

Next time you have to plow into the guy and hope it is called OPI.  

 

Interestingly, I'm waiting for the challenge when a call is Defensive PI and the coach challenges it that it should be OPI.  

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Bills2ref said:

So, based on the replay, you believe that receivers intention was anything BUT to trip/hinder Wallace? I disagree completely. His entire point of that route is to get in Wallace’s way. Probably why his foot steps out while he’s staring right at Wallace. Unless you believe it’s just coincidence that his route had him plant his foot right where he did at the exact moment Wallace was coming by to where Wallace just so happened to have to avoid the contact. 

I think you actually have to contact someone for there to be interference.  That's not evident on any of the replays they showed yesterday.

[Sandhill Mike]

12 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Other teams like the Bills should probably do more of them.

 

I seem to remember the Bills trying it in at least one game a few years ago (I want to say Sammy was still here) and we got two OPI calls on the same drive... Shocker, I think it was a Pats game.

 

Just for fun, here's a Brady quote from a 2015 article:

 

“Every team runs different versions of pick plays,” said Brady. “We had referees in at training camp to talk about the rule and explain it because we got called quite a few times last season, especially on times where we weren’t even trying to pick it was just two guys running the same area and we ran into a defender and they threw the flag for a pick and I’d be like, ‘Wait a minute, we weren’t even trying to pick on that play and you’re throwing the flag.’ What constitutes the flag? It basically comes down to if it looks like a pick then they’re throwing the flag. … We get called, I watch other teams and they do it and I swear they don’t get called. We do it and the flag comes out.”

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/new-england-patriots/vp-officiating-singles-out-patriots-use-receiver-picks

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, Sandhill Mike said:

 

I seem to remember the Bills trying it in at least one game a few years ago (I want to say Sammy was still here) and we got two OPI calls on the same drive... Shocker, I think it was a Pats game.

 

Just for fun, here's a Brady quote from a 2015 article:

 

“Every team runs different versions of pick plays,” said Brady. “We had referees in at training camp to talk about the rule and explain it because we got called quite a few times last season, especially on times where we weren’t even trying to pick it was just two guys running the same area and we ran into a defender and they threw the flag for a pick and I’d be like, ‘Wait a minute, we weren’t even trying to pick on that play and you’re throwing the flag.’ What constitutes the flag? It basically comes down to if it looks like a pick then they’re throwing the flag. … We get called, I watch other teams and they do it and I swear they don’t get called. We do it and the flag comes out.”

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/new-england-patriots/vp-officiating-singles-out-patriots-use-receiver-picks

Aaaaaand there it is.

[PetermansRedemption]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think you actually have to contact someone for there to be interference.  That's not evident on any of the replays they showed yesterday.

That I agree with. I did not see any contact at all. I think that’s the only reason it wasn’t called. 

[Matt_In_NH]

2 minutes ago, H2o said:

Aaaaaand there it is.

 

There what is?  All team bring in refs to training camp

[PolishPrince]

37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You guys can argue about this all day if you want, and I haven't seen a lot of replays, but I think it's simple:  

 

1.  It was offensive pass interference.

 

2.  The officials on the field missed it.  

 

And this is the important part:

 

3.  On review, they are going to overturn calls that (a) are obvious (this was) and (b) actually affected the reception.   Wallace was so far behind Gordon before the pick that I think the review official decided that if there'd been no interference Gordon would have caught it anyway.   Yes, maybe Wallace might have made a quick tackle and saved a big gain, but he wasn't ever going in position to break up the pass.  

 

They haven't exactly said that's how the reviews work, but they have said over and over that the purpose of the rule is to avoid unfair result of an obviously missed call, as happened to the Saints in the playoffs.  In other words, it's not enough that the interference was obvious; it also had to affect the catch.  

Looking at the screenshot above Wallace is already in tackling range of Gordon especially with Wallace’s long arms... this even when he dodging an impeding receiver. Not sure how can just assume Wallace wouldn’t be in range to stop the play if the OPI wasn’t happening.... you could argue he would have caught the ball anyway, but he would probably have been tackled right away resulting in a 2 yard gain and fourth down, instead of a big gain setting up a field goal.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Can't call a "rub" with no contact.  Just ask Kraft...

They haven’t released the video, but I’m guessing that Kraft’s episode involved soft contact. Very soft. 

[4BillsintheBurgh]

Play it like the Pats*:

 

Levi needs to reach out with his foot and land it right on the guys knee, take him out and then we'll have OPI due to contact. McDermott can then say Levi was just trying to get around the wr.

[H2o]

6 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

There what is?  All team bring in refs to training camp

Yes, but the Pats are breeding their own in various ways and helping them get through the ODP process. A lunch break massage area full of Asian girls with soft hands, A slice of the "pie" promised to those who turn a blind eye so to speak. We know what's going on there. 

[The Frankish Reich]

43 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Just another case of Cheats being Cheats.  The picker moved back toward his own LOS and changed direction to get in his way.  But the chickenshit refs had a perfect out.  It was a good challenge by McD even though the NFL ratified the Cheats.  Just another example showing how the NFL fixed this game so the Cheats would win.

The Pats have run this for years, and run it well. The new TE isn’t quite as artful at running it as many other Pats have been. Peyton Manning’s teams also ran these pick plays beautifully for years. The Bills are finally getting there - you’ll see them as the year goes on. Don’t protest; get better at it yourself is the moral of this story. I hate the Pats for clear/outright cheating (the taping scandal, deflate gate, etc) but I gotta admit it: I have a grudging admiration for artful cheating within the rules. 

[Bray Wyatt]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was okay with the challenge. I thought in real time it was a pick. Had there been any contact I think it would have been overturned...  hard for McD to know there wasn't. 

 

I had more issue with the first challenge. You can't challenge forward progress so you are left charging the mm of a spot. You never win those. 

 

They do. In the actual wording of the rule. 

this is the only wording of the rule I can find, do you have another or a link?

[Matt_In_NH]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I was okay with the challenge. I thought in real time it was a pick. Had there been any contact I think it would have been overturned...  hard for McD to know there wasn't. 

 

I had more issue with the first challenge. You can't challenge forward progress so you are left charging the mm of a spot. You never win those. 

 

They do. In the actual wording of the rule. 

I dont think there was any chance of that getting overturned, even with minor contact there.    

[Jobot]

I would love for both our defenders to just annihilate the two receivers next time this were to happen.  That's probably the best way to stop this kinda BS

[All_Pro_Bills]

This is one of those "Gray" areas that this team has a knack for exploiting.  They probably have a full-time guy on staff that reads and reviews the rule book assigned the task of finding things they can use and get away with because the rule book doesn't explicitly say you can or cannot do something.   In this case faking interference or making the defender think he's going to get interfered with but not physically doing it.  While this might seem like bush-league level "cheating" it highlights the extreme measures the Patriots are willing to take to get any edge.  

[Sandhill Mike]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Peyton Manning’s teams also ran these pick plays beautifully for years.

 

I feel Manning's success with it against New England (in his later Colts years) is the reason the Patriots do it and do it so well now.  If Emperor Hoodie sees something that will help his team, he adopts it.  He's never seen a competitive advantage that he didn't like.

 

Frankish Reich, you've got the right idea.  If it's good enough for them, it's something you need to look at too.  Break it down, find out how they use it, get it in your game plan. 

 

I think the Pats work with the refs (as allowed) not so much to learn how to play within the rules but to learn where the blind spots are.

[SoCal Deek]

Geeez people....It’s DESIGNED as a pick play! The only question is whether it was correctly executed. It was not. The pick WR did a horrible job of making it look like he was running a route. Therefore it should be called as a penalty.

[BuffaloRebound]

16 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Geeez people....It’s DESIGNED as a pick play! The only question is whether it was correctly executed. It was not. The pick WR did a horrible job of making it look like he was running a route. Therefore it should be called as a penalty.

 

This.  It was so blatantly a pick, I have no idea how it wasn’t flagged in real time.  The guy wasn’t even pretending to run a route.  

[njbuff]

I was mad in real time when it happened.

 

If I can see wrongdoing with the naked eye, how can these officials not see what was happening?

 

Take 3 points away from NE and the Bills probably win this game.

[MJS]

Seems like a smart play. Half the time you won't get a flag if you make contact, and if you don't make contact you'll probably never get a flag. So I'd do it a bunch and would hope your offensive coordinator is having our WR's do the same thing, from time to time.

 

Most of it comes down to acting. If you can convince the refs that you are just trying to run a route, even if that's not your objective at all, then it's an effective play.

[Freddie's Dead]

38 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

The Pats have run this for years, and run it well. The new TE isn’t quite as artful at running it as many other Pats have been. Peyton Manning’s teams also ran these pick plays beautifully for years. The Bills are finally getting there - you’ll see them as the year goes on. Don’t protest; get better at it yourself is the moral of this story. I hate the Pats for clear/outright cheating (the taping scandal, deflate gate, etc) but I gotta admit it: I have a grudging admiration for artful cheating within the rules. 

 

Screw your grudging admiration.  I'm sick and tired of the ball washing they get for cheating.  I've had it and I'm calling it out.

[row_33]

so do you feel better about a challenge and we get it shown 25 times for an endless review, and they still won't bother enforcing it?

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

Seems like a smart play. Half the time you won't get a flag if you make contact, and if you don't make contact you'll probably never get a flag. So I'd do it a bunch and would hope your offensive coordinator is having our WR's do the same thing, from time to time.

 

Most of it comes down to acting. If you can convince the refs that you are just trying to run a route, even if that's not your objective at all, then it's an effective play.

Agreed. The NFL likes offense! Barring significant contact and evidence of the play being designed as a pick, it simply isn’t called. Ever. So it’s cheating within the rules, like a good old fashioned take-out slide to break up a double play. 

I only take the Pats’ (partial) defense here because this is one of those “we’ve let them get into our heads” things that really isn’t anything that doesn’t go on with 31 other teams. 

[BuffaloRebound]

It wasn’t a smart play.  The Pats player had his eyes on Wallace the whole time and was lining him up like he was gonna block him.  Refs blew the call.  

[MJS]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Agreed. The NFL likes offense! Barring significant contact and evidence of the play being designed as a pick, it simply isn’t called. Ever. So it’s cheating within the rules, like a good old fashioned take-out slide to break up a double play. 

I only take the Pats’ (partial) defense here because this is one of those “we’ve let them get into our heads” things that really isn’t anything that doesn’t go on with 31 other teams. 

Another far more common example is offensive holding. Linemen hold on every single play pretty much. By definition its illegal, but if you keep your hands inside the defender's frame and allow them to disengage then you will not get called for it most of the time. You have to do it to survive in this league.

 

You see the same thing with Seattle's legion of boom. They held a lot simply because they knew the refs wouldn't call it most of the time. Know what you can get away with and keeping doing it until you don't.

 

So if I were Daboll I'd be trying to exploit as many things as I could on offense. It's the ref's job to call it. You don't win any awards for being a choir boy and designing everything to conform to the letter of the law.

2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It wasn’t a smart play.  The Pats player had his eyes on Wallace the whole time and was lining him up like he was gonna block him.  Refs blew the call.  

Looking at a player is not against the rules. Where his eyes were is irrelevant.

 

Missed calls happen all the time. Tre White holds pretty regularly and often doesn't get called for it. Good for him. Keep trying to get away with it.

[H2o]

27 minutes ago, njbuff said:

I was mad in real time when it happened.

 

If I can see wrongdoing with the naked eye, how can these officials not see what was happening?

 

Take 3 points away from NE and the Bills probably win this game.

The ref on the play

[BuffaloRebound]

You think Belichik coached him to blatantly try to pick Wallace like that?  They haven’t won all those Super Bowls and Division titles because of ref incompetence.  That was a dumb play by the Pats player.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

They haven’t released the video, but I’m guessing that Kraft’s episode involved soft contact. Very soft. 

 

which meant she had to work harder...

[peterpan]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillies said:

Here's a zoomed in screenshot.

Not only stopped in his tracks, leaned in, and pushed that left leg out, but he's also looking RIGHT at him.

 

 

 

*intent is 9/10 of the law

Did he really not hit him? The few guys I watched with all thought so.  Bills fans but also jets and bears fans all thought the leg made contact

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

It was a moving pick, the guy made no attempt to run a route and just kept moving towards the defender. The Pats get away with it because it puts the defender in a box, do I run over the guy and hope they call it or do I try to run around it? Moving pick, and the league seem to rely on contact being made.