Captain Hindsight Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 11 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said: He went 10-6 with Matt Cassel and wasnt Garrapolo 2-0? And 1-1 with Brissett. The one loss was to the Bills but Brissett pretty much played with one hand that day and Edelman was the backup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 37 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: How can anyone make this claim? When has Brady been without Belichick? Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady. Brady has never played without Belichick. And the Cassel point is such garbage. They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points. Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and 30.9 points/ game with him. Brady might be the greatest qb ever. Because it's the obvious truth. Give me your list of all time top NFL coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Captain Hindsight said: 11 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said: He went 10-6 with Matt Cassel and wasnt Garrapolo 2-0? And 1-1 with Brissett. The one loss was to the Bills but Brissett pretty much played with one hand that day and Edelman was the backup IIRC - I think it was 1.5 games each that got the Putz off to 3-0 before the powerhouse Tyrod Taylor beat them 16-0 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Seeing as you could be the best QB in the league but if you didn't have a decent O line & scheme to go along with it i voted BB He has been able to bring in players that can keep (for the most part) Brady clean enough to get done what he needs to along with a scheme that the other players brought in on the offense that at times were less than elite players to get the job done with in that scheme to help Brady in every way to be the GOAT . The emphasis has been on team with the Pats it's a some of all the parts but there has to be a master mind to put those parts together & it has to involve a lot more than luck to make it all work especially as long as it has !! Even on the rare occasion when Brady has went down BB would insert another QB that would pull off good results with in the scheme they ran & even losing or getting rid of other great players on the roster in the past he always seems to make the parts work which is his strength !! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there are obvious indications of having a good QB, it isn't always true 21. Marty Schottenheimer Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06 200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles 16. Dick Vermeil Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05 120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs 3 division titles and 2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV) Super Bowl XXXIV champion 15. Tony Dungy Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08 139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs 6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016 6. Joe Gibbs Washington 1981-92, 2004-07 154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI) Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996 Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach. 3. Don Shula Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95 328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs 16 division titles 6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX) Super Bowl VII, VIII champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997 Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history. Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance (and he may not have been the starter then) IIRC Edited July 15, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 33 minutes ago, mannc said: At this point, it’s not provable, one way or the other. Perhaps after Brady retires and the Pats keep winning, we’ll have our answer. As great as Brady is, if he had not come along, I don’t think there’s much doubt that Belichick would have found another franchise QB somewhere, somehow. Maybe he doesn’t win six Super Bowls, but still... But Belichick didn’t before Brady. He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I've never seen a QB make so many critical throws to win playoff games/Super Bowls. Brady is the no brainer decision. My next poll would be which person would you choose to be on the Bills between Belicheat and Brady. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said: I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there obvious indications of having a good BB it isn't always true 21. Marty Schottenheimer Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06 200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles 16. Dick Vermeil Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05 120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs 3 division titles and 2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV) Super Bowl XXXIV champion 15. Tony Dungy Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08 139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs 6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016 6. Joe Gibbs Washington 1981-92, 2004-07 154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI) Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996 Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach. 3. Don Shula Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95 328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs 16 division titles 6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX) Super Bowl VII, VIII champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997 Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history. Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance (and he may not have been the starter then) IIRC Joe Gibbs is the most underrated coach in nfl history. Most great coaches have a great qb. What Gibbs did with his qbs is amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: But Belichick didn’t before Brady. He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history. my god I am just thinking about what I am about to post Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit Edited July 15, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said: my god I am just thinking about what I about to post Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit He had one winning season in his first 6 years. In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long. He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: He had one winning season in his first 6 years. In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long. He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady. that's quite true and funny Now I don't feel anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Duffy Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I think it's more Brady IMO than BB. Although I do think he is a good coach (hated to type that), but IMO quite a few different coaches could have taken their team to the playoffs and have made a couple Super Bowl appearances with Tom Brady at the helm and with an average defense. Maybe not quite as many Super Bowl wins as they have now but I still think if coach BB was not there or if he had left a few years back, IMO they would not have fell off but so much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: How can anyone make this claim? When has Brady been without Belichick? Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady. Brady has never played without Belichick. And the Cassel point is such garbage. They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points. Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and 30.9 points/ game with him. Brady might be the greatest qb ever. Yeah, I don’t get it either. Great qb > great coach Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down. The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick. The Pack miss the playoffs. The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup. The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended. They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Belichick put everything together to allow Brady excel specifically keeping games within reach with his defense or add kickers that can make a big kick when counted on etc. Now Brady might be one of the most clutch QB ever too which has helped the team as well. It's really tough to give one the advantage over the other. Yet I go with the coach since he also excelled he was responsible for the Giants success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: But Belichick didn’t before Brady. He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history. Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs. He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore. As to the second part, that’s pure speculation. And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example). I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over the past 20 years. As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down. The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick. The Pack miss the playoffs. The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup. The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended. They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer. The 49ers did. Also, it shows how overrated the GM of the Colts and Packers were. The Bills would win 7 games with Trent Edwards and JP Losman. and Tim Tebow made the playoffs. Flukes happen. Belichick has never won a playoff game without Brady. 3 minutes ago, mannc said: Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs. He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore. As to the second part, that’s pure speculation. And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example). I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over the past 20 years. As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much. It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too. He has never won a playoff game without Brady. And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Goodell 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 43 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: He had one winning season in his first 6 years. In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long. He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady. Name an all-time great Head Coach who didn't have an elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too. He has never won a playoff game without Brady. And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm I agree that it's complete speculation to predict what one would have done without the other. Brady's never won a playoff game without Belichick. I think this is Brady's last year and then we'll find out for sure which one was more important. I'm betting on Belichick. He's already re-molding the Pats into a team that is less dependent on great quarterbacking and I don't think they'll miss a beat when Brady retires. Please, Carroll got fired twice before he succeeded with Seattle. His early NFL record is not appreciably better than Belichick's. Like Belichick, he became a better coach as he got older. It also didn't hurt that he got Russ Wilson. Edited July 15, 2019 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 23 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Belichick Brady never would have become Brady without Belichick. Brady. Belichick wasn't a winning HC before Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I voted Brady. Both are the best ever but I value QB over HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 In looking up Belichick's statistics, I saw that the Pats went 9-7 and failed to make the playoffs in 2002, the year after their first Super Bowl win. I had completely forgotten about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020: Pats, Bills, Neither, Both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: The 49ers did. Also, it shows how overrated the GM of the Colts and Packers were. The Bills would win 7 games with Trent Edwards and JP Losman. and Tim Tebow made the playoffs. Flukes happen. Belichick has never won a playoff game without Brady. Well Actually... IIRC Drew Bledsoe came in off the bench and Won a playoff game for the Putz (saving the season) and then was benched when Tainted Tom returned. 3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020: Pats, Bills, Neither, Both? Buffalo (only because I despise NE***) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/14/2019 at 11:45 AM, Binghamton Beast said: IMO, Brady. The second Mo Lewis was the turning point for Belichick. Yep - Mo “effing” Lewis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homey D. Clown Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Clearly it's Belli-cheat. Would he have had as much success? absolutely not, but he's the guy behind the machine pulling the strings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jauronimo said: If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020: Pats, Bills, Neither, Both? Both - if the return is Josh Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Most responsible for Patsies** run: Ernie Adams and cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemfield2622 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I just think the helmet thing might be the biggest and most under reported thing of them all. Think of how huge it would be as a young QB to have the coach in your ear during the play. You'd have to get a lot better recognizing coverages and blitzes a hell of a lot faster than watching tape afterward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Tenhigh said: Brady. Belichick wasn't a winning HC before Brady. No, but he's the one who beat Buffalo in a Super Bowl, before Brady. What did Parcells win without Belichick? Face it. Brady is the best QB ever and Bellichick is the greatest tactician ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said: I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there are obvious indications of having a good QB, it isn't always true 21. Marty Schottenheimer Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06 200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles 16. Dick Vermeil Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05 120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs 3 division titles and 2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV) Super Bowl XXXIV champion 15. Tony Dungy Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08 139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs 6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016 6. Joe Gibbs Washington 1981-92, 2004-07 154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI) Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996 Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach. 3. Don Shula Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95 328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs 16 division titles 6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX) Super Bowl VII, VIII champion Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997 Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history. Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance (and he may not have been the starter then) IIRC Ever hear of Bob Griese? Dungy would not be on the list without Manning. Vermeil would not be on the list without Warner. i won’t entertain somebody’s 20+ best. so, Gibbs is the one outlier out of 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 It's tough to really determine. Belichick has made it such an importance to fit into their culture. Hard work - do your job. etc. Everyones so accountable Brady has created a persona of just, an ultimate competitor. The guy will do anything to win, he doesn't care about his numbers, or your numbers for that matter. It also rubs off on other players that their QB is just a total gamer who doesn't care about anything but winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said: Ever hear of Bob Griese? Dungy would not be on the list without Manning. Vermeil would not be on the list without Warner. i won’t entertain somebody’s 20+ best. so, Gibbs is the one outlier out of 15. I've never seen anyone hate being wrong as much as you do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Gugny said: I've never seen anyone hate being wrong as much as you do. I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong. I’m just as happy to argue when people answer a flawed question incorrectly. And whilst (A&FM) we’re at it, please refute my points. 12 minutes ago, dneveu said: It's tough to really determine. Belichick has made it such an importance to fit into their culture. Hard work - do your job. etc. Everyones so accountable Brady has created a persona of just, an ultimate competitor. The guy will do anything to win, he doesn't care about his numbers, or your numbers for that matter. It also rubs off on other players that their QB is just a total gamer who doesn't care about anything but winning. And your bottom paragraph is why the answer is Brady. Name me another HOF QB who would put up w what he has and never asked for the most money? It does not work without Brady. Edited July 15, 2019 by Cripple Creek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Another huge factor is Brady takes less money that doesn’t handicap the Pats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Kemp said: No, but he's the one who beat Buffalo in a Super Bowl, before Brady. What did Parcells win without Belichick? Face it. Brady is the best QB ever and Bellichick is the greatest tactician ever. I dunno, the Bills kind of beat themselves that game. I'd argue that booze, women and magic powder had as much to do with it as BB. What was his HC record pre-Brady? Sub 500? What Brady does on offense gives him full flexibility on defense. BB is up there, but greatest ever? Who knows. Edited July 15, 2019 by Tenhigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTbills Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/14/2019 at 12:41 PM, H2o said: I got Brady. How many SB wins do the Pats have without him as the starter? How many do they have without Belichick as the head coach? Remember when Brady blew out his knee, and Matt Cassel, who hadn't started a football game since high school, led them to a 10-6 record? I don't think it's any question who's more responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said: He had one winning season in his first 6 years. In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long. He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady. D. Jauron would have gotten Brady* killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Black eyes to the NFL shield, the both of them. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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