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Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?

Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?  

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  1. 1. Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?



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1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Brady. Belichick wasn't a winning HC before Brady.

 

No, but he's the one who beat Buffalo in a Super Bowl, before Brady.

 

What did Parcells win without Belichick?

 

Face it. Brady is the best QB ever and Bellichick is the greatest tactician ever. 

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2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there are obvious indications of having a good QB,  it isn't always true

 

21. Marty Schottenheimer
Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06
200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles

 

16. Dick Vermeil
Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05
120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs
3 division titles and  2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV)  Super Bowl XXXIV champion


15. Tony Dungy
Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08
139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs
6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016

 

 

6. Joe Gibbs
Washington 1981-92, 2004-07
154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI)
Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion

Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach.

 

 

3. Don Shula
Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95
328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs
16 division titles
6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX)
Super Bowl VII, VIII champion
Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997

Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history.
 

Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance   (and he may not have been the starter then)  IIRC

Ever hear of Bob Griese?

Dungy would not be on the list without Manning.

Vermeil would not be on the list without Warner.

 

i won’t entertain somebody’s 20+ best.

 

so, Gibbs is the one outlier out of 15.

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It's tough to really determine.

 

Belichick has made it such an importance to fit into their culture.  Hard work - do your job. etc.  Everyones so accountable

 

Brady has created a persona of just, an ultimate competitor.  The guy will do anything to win, he doesn't care about his numbers, or your numbers for that matter.  It also rubs off on other players that their QB is just a total gamer who doesn't care about anything but winning.

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1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

Ever hear of Bob Griese?

Dungy would not be on the list without Manning.

Vermeil would not be on the list without Warner.

 

i won’t entertain somebody’s 20+ best.

 

so, Gibbs is the one outlier out of 15.

 

I've never seen anyone hate being wrong as much as you do.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I've never seen anyone hate being wrong as much as you do.

I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong. I’m just as happy to argue when people answer a flawed question incorrectly.  And whilst (A&FM) we’re at it, please refute my points.

 

 

12 minutes ago, dneveu said:

It's tough to really determine.

 

Belichick has made it such an importance to fit into their culture.  Hard work - do your job. etc.  Everyones so accountable

 

Brady has created a persona of just, an ultimate competitor.  The guy will do anything to win, he doesn't care about his numbers, or your numbers for that matter.  It also rubs off on other players that their QB is just a total gamer who doesn't care about anything but winning.

And your bottom paragraph is why the answer is Brady. Name me another HOF QB who would put up w what he has and never asked for the most money?

 

It does not work without Brady.

Edited by Cripple Creek

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Another huge factor is Brady takes less money that doesn’t handicap the Pats.  

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Kemp said:

 

No, but he's the one who beat Buffalo in a Super Bowl, before Brady.

 

What did Parcells win without Belichick?

 

Face it. Brady is the best QB ever and Bellichick is the greatest tactician ever. 

I dunno, the Bills kind of beat themselves that game. I'd argue that booze, women and magic powder had as much to do with it as BB.  What was his HC record pre-Brady?  Sub 500?  What Brady does on offense gives him full flexibility on defense.  BB is up there, but greatest ever?  Who knows. 

Edited by Tenhigh

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On 7/14/2019 at 12:41 PM, H2o said:

I got Brady. How many SB wins do the Pats have without him as the starter?

How many do they have without Belichick as the head coach?

 

Remember when Brady blew out his knee, and Matt Cassel, who hadn't started a football game since high school, led them to a 10-6 record?

 

I don't think it's any question who's more responsible.

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5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

D. Jauron would have gotten Brady* killed.

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Another huge factor is Brady takes less money that doesn’t handicap the Pats.  

Brady is not taking less money, he is being paid under the table to circumvent the cap. I have no proof of this but I’m 100% sure it is happening.

 

Out of all the cheating that the Patriots have done to me circumventing the cap would be the worst.

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2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong. I’m just as happy to argue when people answer a flawed question incorrectly.  And whilst (A&FM) we’re at it, please refute my points.

 

 

And your bottom paragraph is why the answer is Brady. Name me another HOF QB who would put up w what he has and never asked for the most money?

 

It does not work without Brady.

 

I agree that it does not work without Brady.  It also does not work without pass catchers, running backs and o-linemen ... as well as defense and special teams.  BB the GM is at least partially responsible for those other, very important, pieces to the team being there.

 

He's also responsible for knowing when to jettison players.

 

And for building a winning culture.

 

And for discipline.

 

None of those things works without Belichick.  Brady is the GOAT.  But he's still just one man with one responsibility.  Not so with BB.

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I wonder how many Pats* fans are eavesdropping on this thread? Kinda embarrassing...

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40 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree that it does not work without Brady.  It also does not work without pass catchers, running backs and o-linemen ... as well as defense and special teams.  BB the GM is at least partially responsible for those other, very important, pieces to the team being there.

 

He's also responsible for knowing when to jettison players.

 

And for building a winning culture.

 

And for discipline.

 

None of those things works without Belichick.  Brady is the GOAT.  But he's still just one man with one responsibility.  Not so with BB.

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

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4 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

 

Yes.  Yes, he is.

 

You owe me a chicken dinner.

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1 minute ago, Cripple Creek said:

You have Belichick and the succession of Bills QBs who have started in his tenure. Are we still talking dynasty?

 

Only one piece changes over the course of his run there. One tiny piece. Is he still a genius?

If Brady had never come along, it's ridiculous to think that Belichick would not have done far better at obtaining a franchise QB than the pathetic succession of Bills GMs and coaches since 2000.  Just as I'm confident the Pats will find themselves with a more than adequate QB when Brady decides to hang 'em up.  

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Posted (edited)

Drew Bledsoe was 5-13 in his 18 games with Belichick.

 

Brady came in and went 14-4.

 

Drew Bledsoe was 8-8 in his first year in Buffalo.

 

Hmmmmmmmm.

Edited by Binghamton Beast
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6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Yes.  Yes, he is.

 

You owe me a chicken dinner.

If you believe that JP Losman, EJ Manual, Trent Edwards et al would thrive, allowing Belichick to be dynastic then you’re nuts.

 

It’s the QB.

7 minutes ago, mannc said:

If Brady had never come along, it's ridiculous to think that Belichick would not have done far better at obtaining a franchise QB than the pathetic succession of Bills GMs and coaches since 2000.  Just as I'm confident the Pats will find themselves with a more than adequate QB when Brady decides to hang 'em up.  

Perhaps. What successful QBs have they drafted in that time?

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Just now, Cripple Creek said:

If you believe that JP Losman, EJ Manual, Trent Edwards et al would thrive, allowing Belichick to be dynastic then you’re nuts.

 

It’s the QB.

 

I never said, nor implied, that.

 

This is why the word, "Most," is within the question.  Of course they're both responsible; significantly so.  The question is who has been most responsible for the dynasty.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I never said, nor implied, that.

 

This is why the word, "Most," is within the question.  Of course they're both responsible; significantly so.  The question is who has been most responsible for the dynasty.

 

 

And, Brady has shown he is a successful QB. He would be elsewhere. Where else has Belichick been a HC? How successful was he? 

 

You’re the one touting your man, your disdain for Brady is because of all the beat downs HE has given this team.

 

I can’t argue with illogic. You either see it or you don’t. You don’t see it or you’re playing your natural troll game. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

And, Brady has shown he is a successful QB. He would be elsewhere. Where else has Belichick been a HC? How successful was he? 

 

You’re the one touting your man, your disdain for Brady is because of all the beat downs HE has given this team.

 

I can’t argue with illogic. You either see it or you don’t. You don’t see it or you’re playing your natural troll game. 

 

 

I doubt either one would have been part of any dynasty without the other.

 

 

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Maybe Craft, he is a scofflaw under indictment for solicitation. The man has no morals. He hire  two guys with no morals to form the triumvirate 

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19 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I think he was considered a genius when he shut down the K-Gun offense and won a super bowl as a DC.

 

And let's not forget that he inherited a pure crap Browns team and led them to a real wild card berth (not having to back in).

 

Trust me.

He was considered a great defensive coordinator not a head coach. He led the Browns to a playoff birth after losing seasons followed up by another losing season.

The genius of BB was having enough sense to draft Brady in the 6th.He was not a winning head coach until Brady started. Once Brady arrived it afforded BB the opportunity to turn his ship around. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

 

 

 

Perhaps. What successful QBs have they drafted in that time?

Well, Garappolo, for one, which is one more than the Bills drafted in that time (leaving Josh Allen out of it, for now).  But it's not really a fair question because the Pats have had the best QB in NFL history for the past 18 years, so drafting or otherwise acquiring another QB hasn't exactly been at the top of their to-do list.  

Edited by mannc

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1 minute ago, mannc said:

Well, Garappolo, for one, which is one more than the Bills drafted in that time (leaving Josh Allen out of it, for now).  But it's not really a fair question because the Pats have had the best QB in NFL history for the past 18 years, so drafting or otherwise acquiring another QB hasn't exactly been at the top of their to-do list.  

I’ll give you partial points. They have tried to draft his successor and JG is as close as they’ve come. We’ll learn more about him this season.

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